16 Apr 2010


  1. Contacting Organizations about Inaccessible Websites
  2. Accessible Presentations
  3. EOWG face-to-face or other around ICCHP
  4. Note: Training Example 5. Accessible website development (3 day hands-on workshop) will be updated soon - please get a feel for the scope now, as it will need detailed review after updating in the next week or so


Ian, Shawn, Wayne, Andrew, Emmanuelle, Sharron, Heather, Helle, Sylvie, Liam



Shawn: Let's do a round of introductions for those who have not met

Ian: From London, work as a web developers on front page team at Yahoo

Shawn: Live in Wisconsin, work in Boston for WAI at the W3C

Wayne: Professor at Cal State Long Beach, in California. Love working with accessibility

Shawn: Just add that Wayne has been away for several months and we are all thrilled to have him back.

Andrew: Work for W3C based in Bristol. Been with EO for many years, previously as a member, now as staff.

Emmanuelle: From Spain, work in IA department of Informatics Faculty of the UNED (Univesidad Nacional de Educacion a Distancia) and serves as the Sidar Foundation Director, too (www.sidar.org)

Sharron: Sharron Rush works for Knowbility in Austin Texas, involved with EO for 3 years

Heather: From Atlanta Georgia

Helle: based in Copenhagen Denmark, Visual Impairment Center. Involved off and on with EO and with WAI-AGE for many years.

Sylvie: Based in Paris, joined w3c earlier this year, translated WCAG 2 into French

Liam: Liam McGee, been with EO for long time, run independent consultancy specializing in web site building, search engine optimization and accessibility.

Contacting Organizations about Inaccessible Websites

Shawn: Several months ago we published the draft of the Contacting Organizations, and put it out for public review. By now the WAI-AGE task force has reveiwed and commented. Their comments and public comments have been incorporated into the current draft.
... today we will review updates and set scehdule for publication. Look at documents and change log for today's review
... let's take a moment to look at these and consider how the changes have been implemented

<shawn> Asking Others [to Help]

<shawn> [If you are not sure about using websites and assistive technologies, consider asking someone to help you understand the problem you are having and help you communicate it to the website owners.]

Ian: Looks clear enough to me

Andrew: yes, looks good

Shawn: anyone have concerns? if not, next change is fairly minor...
... change [Consider including a screen shot of the web page with the problem.] to [Consider including a screen shot of the web page that has the problem.]

Sylvie: I wonder if you are including PWD reporting problems if it would be helpful to add some information about HOW to do that.

Emmanuelle:Maybe it will be necessary to explain how to create a screen shot ...

Shawn: Good point, but I think we decided not to do a lot of "How-To" instructions. Which is why we put in the part about asking for help.

Slyvie: Maybe it would be better to say something that is more directly helpful.

Wayne: You could add, if it is a problem with the visual interface...document what you see.

Sylvie: because it may be a problem with soemthing like auto refresh that is not appropriate for a screen shot.

Shawn: We wanted to mention the option of screen shot, in case it is helpful, but not require it.

Ian: If we start talking in too much detail, it could unnecessarily complicate things. I say leave it as is.

Shawn: Does "Consider..." phrase make it optional enough not to be required?

Sylvie: Not sure. Why suggest that if the visual presentation is not the problem?

Andrew: What about adding "if relevant"

Ian: "Consider" does that.

Ian: prefer provision of too much rather than not enough information.

Shawn: "Consider" means think about it.
... OK as is? keep working?

Liam: As is.

Shawn: Sylvie?

Sylvie: Yes, OK

Shawn: Under "Getting a Response..." In the third paragraph, we changed the structure. Is it OK?

All: Yes it's fine

Shawn: It was published as draft a few months ago. We had looked at a few other changes previously. Are we now ready to publish as done? Can we go around?

Sharron: Publish

<sylvie> sylvie is ok with publish

<Wayne> publish

<shadi> publish

<LiamM> Publish

Heather: publish

Helle / Ian: publish

<Andrew> publish

<Emanuelle> ok

Shawn: cool, any objections from anyone for publishing?
... Andrew, WAI-AGE task force mets next week, do they want to look at it once more before publishing?

Andrew: I doubt there will be changes, but yes, let's give them a chance for final review.

Shadi: Are you looking for approval for publication?

Shawn: Yes, EO has approved for publication, are there any objections from WAI-AGE?

Accessible Presentations

Shawn: We have recieved many comments on this document, some of which need discussion

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-training#x201004Apr15

Shawn: [Comments and discussion points for 16 April]
... Let's jump to the ones flagged for EO discussion and if there are others that Shadi or anyone else wants to discusss, we will move on to those.
... start with Comment #2

Ian: I am not sure I agree that it is complex or daunting, but the logic is odd. We mention a request, but follow with a solution to a problem.
... for example, participants may request to sit in circle...

Shawn: I will change to clarify wording, like that? [makes change to text]
... Shadi, your response?

Shadi: I think it is OK

Andrew: I'm wondering about swapping the order to "someone hard of hearing may request..."

Shadi: Yes, to understand the rationale behind that request was the complexity. This order makes it somewhat clearer.

Shawn: [reads new text]
... are we all OK with that?

Shadi: Is someone trying to speak?

Wayne: It was just agreement, I am OK with it.

Shawn: OK, next for discussion, Comment #4, please read.

<shawn> Comment 4. currently:

<shawn> Ensure the facility and area is accessible.

<shawn> For example, ensure the building entrance, meeting room, break rooms, etc. are accessible by wheelchair; ensure adequate sound system, including working ALD/hearing loop with sufficient batteries as needed. When possible, allow participants to check out the room in advance to suggest optimum positioning of the speaker, screen, seating, etc. (There are checklists online to help ensure a facility is accessible.)

Liam: Not sure it is adding information.

Shawn: But does it encourage people to go online to get the information they may need?

Liam: My concern is that we are telling people to do a thing that they may have done anyway, and we could be sending them down a not-useful path.

Ian: Yes, how will a person judge if it is a good or reasonably complete check list, or not?

Shawn: Does someone want to step up and verify the completeness or take this part out?

Shadi: We are asking them to check if a room is wheelchair accessible, we have a strong obligation to review wheelchair accessibility as web site accessibility for blind users.

Shawn: Do we have one or two to points to make or do we take our references to specific check lists?

Shadi: It may be good to find a good resource, but at least a mention is better than not having anything at all.

Shawn: I need a volunteer for a checklist for facility accessibility.

Wayne: I will find one for first job since I am back.

Shawn: One I recently heard of was for voting place requirements, one in US and one in Europe. If we find a couple we can simply say "There are several online, here are a couple..."
... and it would be nice to list them, if something is missing make a note. If possible, the checklists should come from different countries.
... we have talked a lot about asking for resources from a variety of countries.

Andrew: I will make note to ask widely for such resources and

<LiamM> brief is good. One point.

Shawn: Is it better to have just one point about this or separate it into two separate points?
... remember the page is targeted for speakers, not event planners.

Liam: One point

Ian: On top of the editor's note, what are we expecting speakers to do in the case there are issues?

Shadi: I don't agree with the separation. The line is blurry between the two speakers/organizers. I think that partially it also applies to organizers.

Shawn: Because this is meant to cover so many situations, it could be your responsibility, but if it is a large conference and you are invited, it is clearly beyond your ability to control.
... can we leave it as one point and edit so that your points come through more clearly?

Shadi: It could be better as a checklist.
... as I was editing, it became too long and complex. I am not happy with first sentence. Rationale is that checking that the venue itself is accessible comes before AV. So process-wise it seems first, but if you can get it in one, I am OK.

Shawn: I will consider all this input for next edit.
... let's look at Comment #9

Sharron: I agree with editor comment, this is good practice rather than accessibility

Ian: agree as well

Emmanuelle: I agree too

Liam: agree, keep it short

Shadi: I can go with the majority. I think so many of the things that benefit everyone may have particular importance for people with disabilities. A note adding that would be good, but I can go with majority.

Ian: It may be just a one liner, be courteous, keep to schedule, etc.

Shadi: But the issues can go beyond courtesy for someone with medical or dietary requirements.

Wayne: Finding the next room can be an issue for blind audience members.

Shawn: I think many agree that it is useful, but may not be worth expanding the document.

Sharron: Is getting persuaded by Shadi

Shadi: There is a bit of an obligation that we have to cover things that are often forgotten, like this.

Shawn: what if we do something clearer, more specific. "Be aware that some people may need regular breaks for medication or dietary requirements. So stick to schedule."

Andrew: If we get that specific, we may want to move forward as Ian suggested. Publish ahead of time so people can make those arrangements.

Wayne: Yes, it's general usability but the neglect of a general usability tenant may be inconvenient to some, but for those with a disability it could cause a disproportionate burden.

Shadi: I suggested another section "Other Considerations.." or something for topics that are not covered elsewhere.

<IanPouncey> Ian: is also being persuaded

Shawn: what else would go in that section?

Shadi: [garbled] people make sounds, have specific behavior, [garbled]

Shawn: Let's review the others and come back. I'm torn.

<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to discuss comment 10

Wayne: I recently made a customized style sheet for a client who could only take contrast of 2 to 1.

Shadi: I'm back!
... what were the results of previous?

Shawn: We have left it open.

Shadi: I disagree with the editor. As it stands now, it seems general usability rather than accessibility.

<Emanuelle> About 10: Use appropriate font size, background and text colors for the individual visualization (pc, pda, etc.) and for display by a projector in room.

Shawn: any objections with combining these?
... OK there being no objection, look at #11, we are seeking a less jargony phrase.

<sylvie> Use several ways to give information

Liam: speak many ways...

Shawn: and use pictures...

Liam: Teach!

Shawn: Teach well

Liam: yes, rhyming, songs...

...that is your classic thing you are supposed to do as a good teacher, speaker, trainer is think of all the ways people learn and hit them in every one

<Emanuelle> Use multiple communication modes: Take in account the different learnings styles

Liam: there is more meaning in "teach" than in "communicate"

Shawn: yes but still not clear enough. Brainstorm...

Laim: people learn in different ways

<Emanuelle> great

Shadi: has text been edited from previous?

Shawn: no, don't think so, maybe

Brainstorm: account for/think about/teach for/remember

<shadi> [["Account for different learning styles" sounds good to me]]

Wayne: Who is the audience? amateur people giving presentations?

Shawn: yes, and others too.
... let's move along to comment #12

Shadi: I don't feel as strongly about this one, but have some language that relates more clearly to the planning side of things and then making the electronic part accessible is more the execution phase. So I thought about the split. But I could accept an edited version that addresses both.

<IanPouncey> no strong opinion

Liam: I prefer the third version, but don't feel strongly.

Andrew: I slightly prefer the split version, and also don't feel strongly

Shawn: Please contribute your thoughts for editor's next pass

<IanPouncey> Would start with the split version

<sylvie> I am sorry I have to leave the call bye

Shawn: on to Comment #14...
... will come back to #15, on to #20

Liam: just something like "don't forget to leave plenty of time to allow people to ask questions"

Wayne: wait until you feel uncomfortable and THEN count to 5...

Shawn: can we tuck that in with
... "speak slowly" or does it need another section

Liam: a lot of this seems to be general good practice

Shawn: yes but with particular relevance for accessiiblity

Liam: ususally I am in favor of cutting, but this is useful, so am in favor of leaving it in. I am happy to have it tucked in another section.

Shawn: #9, #15, #20 then we tend to want to keep, but are not sure where we want to put
... #21

<Wayne> I think the "other good practice" is good idea. Maybe with a title like "General good practices that REALLY help people with disability".

Shadi: We also need to add a caution for all people - even audience - to use microphone. It is a good reminder

<Wayne> ... with verb agreement

Shawn: expand that comment, then? any objection?

Andrew: Does that get rolled together with "repeat audience comments"?

Shawn: it is so often forgotten, i think it should be called out

Andrew: all this discussion, plus what you already have could be rolled together

Shadi: audience comment sould be bulleted under "use the microphone". And rolling things together may provide more opportunity to unroll others

<sinarmaya> Please, mark as an acronym the "CART" term ;-)

Shawn: so we come back to #20, plenty of time; #9 that people need breaks; #15 audio description of visual content. Consider these now.

Liam: I agree that it is too general

...the general principle is that if you are not used to presenting to people who may have various tools,assistive tech, etc there are things to be aware of, but not scary. In this case, expect the unexpected is good, relax, they are not the borg

Shawn: Maybe put it in the beginning, but could be scary and wierd and off-putting. Instead, maybe at the end a section that pulls in a lot of these, an open-ended section
... people love stories, maybe end with a story, here are some things that have happened to encourage Go with the Flow, relax, etc

Shadi: Maybe one or two such examples throughout the document to illustrate. Have them placed nicely inline, an approachable experience could be an effective approach.

Shawn: A concern is that by adding these things, we will be lengthening the document
... are there other things that would be illustative?

Shadi: A case where somebody asked to record a session - even though recording was not allowed; someone suddenly walked out; a listener hits the table, causing a Tourette's reaction scream causing yet another seizure reaction. Illustrate how people may behave or react differently and alert speakers to be prepared.

Shawn: What about putting that at the end

Shadi: yes in an additional considerations section

Shawn: Too vague...what about Different Stroke, Diversity, Be Flexible, Accomodate for Diversity
... other thoughts?

<Emanuelle> I agree with "Accomodate for Diversity" and think that we need take in account that the speaker/teacher can be a disable person too ;-)

Liam: There is a great variety of other cognitive disabilities, I have a friend with medical needs that require frequent injections. it is good to be alerted to expect unexpected

Shawn: #20

<Wayne> expand your expectations of normal behavior

Shadi: Speak clearly is one thing and be considerate of people who may have other needs is a different thing.

Shawn: Provide plenty of time to answer. Agree it would be nice to fit it in somewhere else.

Wayne: I am more strongly convinced that a general usability section could be very effective, particularly if it clearly points out why it is especially important for PWD. 15 and 20 for example.

Shawn: Based on these revisions, we will take another pass at this as a group. You may get them Tuesday or Wednesday. Please look at them, schedule time to review, email comments in the meantime and review next week. Publish the week after.
... if you have not read this document in detail, please do it this week. The intent is to publish as a draft (noted at the bottom) and plan to update.nnounce it for review

EOWG face-to-face

Shawn: We've been slowed down by juggling several events and meetings around ICCHP

Andrew: Last ICCHP we had a formal structure for the session, billed it as "Bring your Questions" sat in the round and had open discussion and a fairly unstructured session.

Shawn: You may recall we used to have a WAI meeting at CSUN and considering doing similar at ICCHP

Shawn: I've added some more information about dates
... and we are planning EO face to face in November as well
... if you would only go to one of those meetings, please make note of that in the survey.

Training Example 5. Accessible website development (3 day hands-on workshop)

Shawn: we need detailed review and consideration of this. Please plan the time, this is an ambitious and important document. We need your input.

Shadi: Main thing that Andrew and I are trying to get right now is the schedule. Balancing the amount of time spent on specific topics. Will update and send new schedule on Monday or Tuesday. Feedback very useful.

Shawn: any questions or comments?
... open comments?

<Emanuelle> Memories for William Loughborough (l)

Wayne: So nice to be back and to hear everyone

AccessU is May 10-12 and input for EAC.gov on pilot online voting program

Shawn: please watch for email, comment online, on schedule to meet as usual. Otherwise have a great week-end.

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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