See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 04 March 2010
<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<janina> agenda: this
<oedipus> "solomonic" summary change proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
<MichaelC> scribe: John_Foliot
<MichaelC> scribeNick: JF
<oedipus> jf, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet
<oedipus> leif, "solomonic" summary change proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
<MichaelC> action-2 due 1 April
<trackbot> ACTION-2 Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 due date now 1 April
<LeifHS> my name: Leif Halvard Silli
Cyns allow diversion for MSAA / ARIA
<MichaelC> action-8: UAI TF has decided to allow for divergent relationships
<trackbot> ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in mappings logic notes added
<janina> If my stuttering continues, I could get my cell phone. It would take about 2-3 minutes to make that change.
Cyns beleives Action 8 is / could be closed
<MichaelC> close action-8
<trackbot> ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in mappings logic closed
<MichaelC> action-20 due 11 March
<trackbot> ACTION-20 Dig up history on column element due date now 11 March
<oedipus> chaals' imagemap proposal for CANVAS: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
<MichaelC> action-21: chaals' imagemap proposal for CANVAS: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
<trackbot> ACTION-21 - coordinate concrete proposal for use of imagemap in CANVAS notes added
Janina: Concern that facilitators / email exchanges have gone far away from polite conversation and become attack like
keep personalities out of discussions
ask others honor that others have perspectives
focuse on technical issues, avoid judgements
Canvas subgroup has offered a proposal to the tF
Chaals has a counter-proposal that he has submitted
Rich: still some issues surrounding ADOM
<oedipus> chaals' imagemap proposal for CANVAS: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
Maciej suggests that by default the sub-tree navigation be keyboard accessible
canvas should be in keyboard navigation
else yu must make explicit statement
<richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/att-0265/canvaselement-issue74-feedback1.html
<scribe> new modification emerged on Monday call
replace ADOM with Navsubtree
set to false to not include in keyboard navigation
over time you will never have to set it - will become default
(Richard reviews current proposal verbatum)
richard: Chaals proposal binds the image map to Canvas
needs to also deal with <coords> and addition of ARIA markup
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
richard suggests that either proposal could then be used to make ally available
image mape would been seen as a navsubtree
<Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
yet another CP presented by SteveF
so group must decide do we want to proceed with the first proposal, Chaals proposal, or a combined proposal
the navsubtree proposal, in terms of change is rather small to HTML spec
Rich believes there is value in presenting both
Janina: how many changes will this add to the spec?
<oedipus> GJR notes that IMAGEMAP restoration proposal origanted with lachy, not chaals
Rich is unsure of feel of HTML WG to re-visit the old HTML4 areamap
SteveF: FF has no support for @role on area elements
however DaveB is pushing for that
<LeifHS> Chaals proposal uses <A> elements. Those support roles, no?
history of re-instatement of area goes back a ways
Rich: what is groups postion?
<cyns> Leif, in current spec A doesn't take roles, but there's a bug on this
Janina: take some time and survey group
would HTML WG look kindly on imagemaps?
<LeifHS> Cynthia, yes, but they discussed FIrefox support.
PaulC suggests that the answer would be No
SteveF: thee has been a fair bit of silence on this topic at the larger group
Janina: a survey could ask "Should" HTML WG accept AreaMaps
<cyns> Leif, as part of work item to do mappings, we intend to argue that A and most active elements should take roles.
Rich: don't restrict authors to areamaps
<cyns> So, agree with Gregory, that they SHOULD
<oedipus> GJR thinks the sanest thing is to have 1 approach to CANVAS a11y
hixie suggests that you can have 2D Canvas navigation
Rich: navsubtree clarrifys what to do with that content
eventually navsubtree would become obsolete
<oedipus> strong plus 1 to SteveF's proposal to combine
Rich: if we present Chaals request, do we need to re-write the whole areamap part of spec?
Chaals: quite serious about making this proposal
PaulC: question of scope / work effort
if there is strong support for that change, will require detailed Change Proposal
Chaals: would like to take preliminary Question to working group
not a huge change
but is scattered a bit more throughout the larger document
so might take a bit more time
Rich: recaps - 2 things regarding navsubtree
read 2d proposal
says essentially that this would be an expected beahviour
elements in navsubtree should be in keyboard order
Chaals: that is what the spec says, argues that it is incorrect
Rich: apple also suggests that the navsubtree would be there
bring the 2 together as "the proposal", then work with Chaals to refine details
Chaals: 2 phases to his proposal
1) if you must render all of convas content as active when rendered, it has a constraining effect
might end up rendering stuff only relevent to canvas
if you use imagemap elements (no substantive change to spec, just editorial)
then you could use area elements inside of canvas, but don't have a rendering behaviour if cnvs is not rendered
already works
<oedipus> not trying to cut off debate, but there are only 20 minutes left in call and we have yet to get to summary
one weakness is that the only way to create structure is to use extensive area (ARIA) additions
howeve establishes block elements - enables richer ability to add content
change proposl can be minimal in many ways
why write a HTML5 change proposal to change an existn (HTML4) imagemap
but it could be done today
Rich: if we return to HTML4 imagemap, how does it impact on HTML5 spec (drag n drop for esample)
Janina: we shoud find broader solutions that go beyond just a11y
Chaals: cannot see a particular impact on Drag n drop
thinks it would be valuable to advance to HTML Wg
impact on DOM?
Janina: important as this is a threshhold issue
seems both proposals can be combined
iron out issues
however, what would be acceptable to larger WG?
ask that question before moving foward?
Rich: pain points
HTML spec is inconsistent re: navsubtree
Q: how do people feel about the default behaviour that navsubtree be default behaviour
2) how do we feel about bringing the full HTML 4 imagemap back?
Chaals: HTML5 imagemap model actually can support Chaals
proposal
however if we use html4 model
HTML5 spec doesn't yet work, HTML4 does
thx greg
in functionality, both imagemaps proposals will work
Cyns: does either support more than live regions?
Chaals: essentially yes
in theory everything should work
in both imagemaps spec, the <map> element works like a <div>
(discussion of HTML 4's imgemap properties)
Cyns: curous to see how this would work with menus and toolbars
Chaals: if you make an image map with a bunch of <A> elements inside, but wrap with a canvas element, it doesn't render, but is navigatible
Rich: if we bind it, we wouldnt want it to render
Chaals: can be inside our outside
of canvas
... make an imagemap and place it inside the canvas
<oedipus> ten minute warning
Chaals: this seems to work everywhere except Safari
today
presumes there is a mechanism
<oedipus> plus 1 to Janina's suggestion
Janina: should we ask Rich and Chaals to further discuss 'merging' ideas before moving it to larger WG?
Chaals: proposes that Richa nand he get together at CSUN to bang out details
Janina: worth explaining to WG that we have some good, but incomplete proposals - pehaps proposal by end of month
Chaals: tell WG that we have an idea, but not fully baked
SteveF: if we do go down this route, we will be asking for some substantial changes to 2D canvas API
<oedipus> FIVE MINUTE WARNING
so introduces sme serious questions
We need the 2 to work together
<paulc> Leaving to go to the HTML Wg meeting which I am chairing today.
there are some things that will definately need to be changed
<oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/2dcontext
Cyns: figure out best aspects of both, then merge them
<oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api
SteveF: cannot get examples to work in Opera - need more working examples
for testing
Chaals: win version of Opera has a regression - if not working is considered a bug
Rich: interested in seeig examples with input elements as well
<oedipus> TWO MINUTE WARNING
SteveF: if we can get some working examples, can make others
<chaals> for Opera development builds
Steve will bring 2 changes to the subgroup
need to bring to the larger TG group
larger TF group
<oedipus> on the TABLE for summary (pun intended)
<oedipus> LauraC: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/SummaryAttribute20100222
<oedipus> Leif: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/tableInfoProposal
Janina: re summary: pleae look at Leif's change Proposal
<oedipus> GJR's "solomonic" summary change proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
sorry we lacked time to look at these
thee are numerous proposals out there
<oedipus> Cyns: www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute%2C_Feb_15%2C_2010
we should talk to see what it would take to bring all of this together?
<kliehm> Also join Cynthia, John, Chris Blizzard, Michael Dale, Bruce Lawson and I at SXSW: http://my.sxsw.com/search/event_results?q=html5+workshop+-css3+-google ;-)
need hel
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: i/Janina: Concern that/TOPIC: Sub-Group Updates Succeeded: i/due 1 April/TOPIC: Action Item Review Succeeded: s/Mondau/Monday/ Succeeded: s/cll/call/ Succeeded: s/the/they/ Succeeded: s/2board/2D/ Succeeded: s/(?)// Succeeded: s/2D navigation/2D Canvas navigation/ Succeeded: s/HTML%/HTML5/ Succeeded: s/insdie/inside/ Succeeded: s/imageemap/imagemap/ Found Scribe: John_Foliot Found ScribeNick: JF Default Present: John_Foliot, kliehm, Marco_Ranon, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Janina, MikeSmith, Ben_Caldwell?, Eric_Carlson, Stevef, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich, Leif_Halvard_Silli, Paul_Cotton, +20625aaaa, Dick_Bulterman, chaals Present: Ben_Caldwell? Cynthia_Shelly Dick_Bulterman Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina John_Foliot Leif_Halvard_Silli Marco_Ranon Matt Michael_Cooper MikeSmith Paul_Cotton Rich Stevef chaals kliehm Regrets: Denis_Boudreau Jon_Gunderson Laura_Carlson Kelly_Ford Geoff_Freed Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0071.html Found Date: 04 Mar 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]