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<trackbot> Date: 26 September 2009
<heycam> Meeting: Mountain View F2F 2009 Day 1
<anthony_with_mous> Scribe: Anthony
<anthony_with_mous> ScribeNick: anthony_with_moustache
<anthony_with_mous> CL: I went to the XSL F2F
<anthony_with_mous> ... was there for 2 days of the meeting
<anthony_with_mous> ... main topic of discussion was shapes
<anthony_with_mous> ... they want to have arbitrary shapes
<anthony_with_mous> ... or set of shapes
<anthony_with_mous> ... to any block
<anthony_with_mous> ... they have page masters then blocks
<anthony_with_mous> ... and the idea is to add shapes to the blocks
<anthony_with_mous> ... and idea is the text would fit in the shape
<anthony_with_mous> ... then flow to the next shape
<anthony_with_mous> ... by text they mean anything
<anthony_with_mous> ... tables, lists
<anthony_with_mous> ... then there are two add ons that make it a bit complicated
<anthony_with_mous> ... tri-tables
<anthony_with_mous> ... that allow adjustments by varying different properties
<heycam> ScribeNick: anthony_with_mous
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: and therefore
the text fits with in the shape
... and then there's shapes that grow
... as the text gets bigger the shape gets bigger in the
middle
DS: It seems to me there's also
another case that people want
... the first is what you said - copy fitting
... it's pretty common that people want to do copy
fitting
... where they want the text to grow to fit the size of the
shape
... if you want to have SVG boarders on a CSS block
... we don't have any way in SVG saying make this part
change
... we don't have any way of stating the intentionality of the
shape
AG: Is that still in scope with SVG?
DS: We could have essentially the
pie shape, bars, but not by defining them as something with
certain behaviours
... but more so like the constraint stuff
... if we have parts of the shape to grow to meet certain
constraints
<ChrisL> notes from the text flowing into shape discussions http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Sep/0056.html
DS: SVG wouldn't define a pie chart, they'd define things would grow
CL: I dropped a link in
... and if you scroll down to the bottom
... you'll see SMIL
... Liam is wondering if you can use SMIL in XSL
... I said not really
... and suggested a subset of SMIL
... the path animation to be exact
CM: What does path animation represent?
CL: The main difference here is
you're not getting a change over time
... it represents the shape you want
CM: The paper you're talking about growing shape to fit text
<ChrisL> hit the 'pdf' link from http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1166160.1166165
CL: In an XSL file the want to
have some SVG
... have some SVG because you want to draw it or use bits of it
but don't want to draw
... Liam was saying SVG has <defs> element
... They'd like to point to gradients
... and bits of SVG that's useful
... they specifically mentioned doing stuff in Inkscape and
dropping it in
... I gave them an update on the fonts work
... there's a public list www-font
... and there's a lot of discussion about what do with web
fonts
... CSS and SVG give you the ability to the open type
fonts
... which is the same font format as the for sale fonts are
sold as
... in response to that there were two formats proposed
... EOT format
... from Microsoft
... they have an embedded uri RootString
... which people didn't like
<shepazu> s /EOT/EOT
CL: the next format was MTX from
Agfa
... it was objected on the grounds was compression libraries
can have security problems
... so there was case study where gcip was shown to be almost
as good as MTX particularly with Unicode
... as a result there was a proposal for a new font
format
... a web font format
... re-encoding of open type fonts
... it was proposed Jonathon Kew
... it has a table of sizes and then individual Open Type
table
... that can be reference
... if it's compressed it will say the size when
uncompressed
<heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/p3-hurst.pdf -- that's nathan's paper
CL: there's a specification
available and an implementation
... that converts both ways to and from open type
<jwatt> http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html - that's Jonathan Kew's WOFF spec
DS: He's form SIL and he's
interested in the international case
... since he has the individual tables zipped
... for someone in a place with limited bandwidth it's better
then for them
ED: But there's still CPU and
memory needed to decompress everything
... so there may not be any benefit
CL: You can download the list tables initially to see which tables are needed
ED: There may not be a big benefit compared to having the whole thing zipped due to network latency
CL: That format was originally
called web OTF
... there were questions by W3C could use the name
... the 3rd draft is called WOFF
... Web Open Font Format
... There are for formats for doing downloadable fonts
... SVG, WOFF, EOT, EOT-lite
DS: Five
... OpenType
JW: So when you say OpenType you are including TrueType as well?
CL: Yes OpenType is a super
set
... my charter proposal will for the formats that are not
standardised
... The thing that people liked was to conform to the spec
people would have to implement two of the formats
... and the bit that I'm going to put in is you have to support
either the CSS or an XML format
... the reason that's interesting and I'm calling it the XML
syntax and not SVG is because XSL want to use it
... in there own name space
... they plan to adopt that just as is
DS: Another reason to make the group is it gets commitment form the members to start using the format
CL: There were some font
foundries that were saying we can have different licenses for
the different formats
... so they're happy
... one thing with the SVG fonts is they can't do hinting and
the internationalisation isn't there
... one thing we could say for SVG 2.0 is we could say you'd
have to support WOFF
CM: Just wondering if you can
stick SVG inside something like OpenType
... the glyph shapes in OpenType are like cubic beziers?
CL: There are constraints in OpenType fonts
<heycam> Scribe: Cameron
<heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
CL: the xsl group is producing a thing called "design notes"
<ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Group/2009/03/FPWD-xsl-fo-20.html
CL: they had a piece about colour
that was drawn from svg print
... and the only bit it really had was the device specific
colour stuff
<shepazu> http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html
CL: they were getting ready to
publish this, and almost about to publish
... i offered to rewrite the colour section
<ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xsl-fo-sg/2009Sep/0033.html
CL: i explained the differences
between svg colour and svg print, the current state of things,
and proposed wording which they agreed to
... so it's in the spec now
... i gave them some wording, assuming you adopt all features
from svg color, which you would probably select from
... and i suggested some syntax that seemed to fit with their
style
... and they accepted the proposal as is
AG: so you always have to place an rgb falback
CL: yes, srgb fallback
... some others wanted cmyk fallback, but we ended up with just
srgb fallback
CM: why is the "ICC" in capitals
there?
... are xsl properties case sensitive?
CL: yes they are
... i don't mind if they change that
... we got one piece of feedback on this
... in the design notes it says "Four new functions are added
to support device-dependent color"
... the HP person wanted "device n channel" instead of "device
multi channel"
... the other change he wanted was a uri or reference to a
block of data, since that's the way they do it, of describing
the colors in the printer
... we were vaguely aware that's what they did, but we didn't
have concrete information
<fat_tony> Scribe: Anthony
<fat_tony> ScribeNick: fat_tony
CM: Robert wonders what the use cases for SVG Fonts are
CL: I sent a reply
... with a bunch of use cases
... and he replied to say that was useful
CM: What I'd like to know
is
... what features of SVG Fonts can you not with regular
OpenType fonts are used
... and which of them are basically an abuse of SVG Fonts to
get some nifty behaviour
CL: The only abuse that I'm aware of is wishing SVG had a Y-Up coordinate system
ED: I've seen people using fancy stroking for effects
<ed> ...using glyphs in svg fonts
DS: Which ones are used?
CM: Yes and which ones are not
DS: Hard to know at this
point
... because ASV supported them
... and it's older content
... I'd like to be able to use SVG Fonts for doing complex
shapes for illuminated fonts
CL: You can do RT stuff
... multi-coloured stuff
... anything you can draw you can make it into a glyph
<shepazu> http://www.alifetimeofcolor.com/study/images/illum_manuscript_l.jpg
CL: if you give people a way to draw pictures and wrap it as text
<shepazu> http://www.graphic-design.com/Type/caps/CapB.jpg
CL: people will eventually put pictures as text
DS: [talks about second link]
CM: What happens when you fill SVG Font text?
CL: We added something specific for just the 'd' attribute
DS: You mean for Tiny?
CL: Yes
ED: Say you wanted to fill what
was specified in the 'd' attribute
... if you wanted to fill the path with something with full
fonts you wouldn't be able to do that
CL: Suppose you do a font like
Jurassic Park your path on the outer thing with red bits
... and do that for loads of text
... for each occurrence of the character you have a hidden
tree
... multiple copies of this arbitrary content
ED: I'd suggest it inherits from document tree
CL: So you mean like a current colour?
ED: Similar
... the question is what properties you want there
... and applies
CL: Colour
ED: Fill, stroke
... that would be possible and would make it much simpler
<ChrisL> They tend to be used for short, decorative, one-off text strings. Kerning, glyph shapes may be modified for the one pieve of artwork.
<ChrisL> They can be used for less common languages.
<ChrisL> The glyphs don't have the same constraints that TT/OT glyphs have, in terms of placement of control points, winding rule, avoidance of overlap and self-intersection. They can mix cubics, quadratics, and straight line segments as needed.
<ChrisL> In other words, if you can draw it, you can make it a glyph. And the SVG engine can already render it because it already knows about paths, fill, stroke, opacity etc.
<ChrisL> Of course, the temptation is to just draw something which looks, visually, like text. SVG gives the option to make it real, searchable, accessible and updatable text, for very little more effort.
ED: I guess it would be nice to style the colours in the text based on where they are used
<ChrisL> from dev-tech-svg@lists.mozilla.org
CM: Some body to suggested to
solve that use case
... you could stick an attribute on graphical content?
CL: Why would do that?
JW: I have a reason for not doing
that
... is you can't select it
... what if I want to select one word out of three word
heading?
DS: You could essentially do it as a ligature
JW: It makes it different to the rest of the text behaves
CM: You could break it down into logical blocks, words, sections, letter
JW: You can do it as separate
words or text
... then you're saying this graphic is this word
... then how do you join them together
... so when you search for it, it is found
DS: Logical and visual order can be abused even with regular text
CL: I was remembering that
Vincent Hardy asked what's the use case for all this SVG
stuff
... why not use a single path
... he said unless we do it that way SVG will not be used
... his argument was persuasive
... then the guy from Kodak
... said we've got a use case that can only done in SVG and not
in True Type
... after a while Vincent Hardy did see the use cases and
started making content
DS: [Draws diagram on
board]
... you can't do that as an SVG font
ED: Yes you can
DS: This is something that is a
one off thing
... and you don't want to spend the time and energy adjusting
everything
... to get it readable
CL: It would be work
... I agree
... but it could be done
DS: My point is this is something
you can not do with OpenType
... how is this different form a ligature
<anthony> JW: ROC is asking for give me the use cases
CL: He's collecting the use
cases
... and Alex D has chipped in with support
JW: It's obvious for the use
cases that the majority of them are catered for by WOFF
... ROC just wants to know have we pretty much covered all the
cases that people want to handle
... and whether it should be put as a priority
... That's what I'd like to hear is the use cases
... you have all this power to make anything a glyph
<ChrisL> typography teaching with serifs, verticals
JW: but I want to see why people want to do things that can't be do in WOFF or OpenType
<ChrisL> glyphs with icicles in blue-and-white, with font whatever color is wanted
<ChrisL> nimated drawing fonts for chinese
DS: I want to do a header and it has blue with icicles
<ChrisL> scripted distressed fonts
JW: I think we should try and
collect a page
... with graphical examples
<ChrisL> illuminated glyphs
<ChrisL> jurassic park font with red inlay
DS: People when doing layouts
with glyphs
... [draws a diagram with Oprah W]
JW: You'd want examples that
don't raise too many examples
... that drawing raises too many questions
<heycam> Scribe: Jonathan
<heycam> ScribeNick: jwatt
DS: we should highlight what SVG fonts are good for
s/too many exmples/too many distracting questions/
<fat_tony> Scribe: Anthony
<fat_tony> ScribeNick: fat_tony
<ChrisL> Erik van Blokland
<ChrisL> http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html
<ChrisL> http://www.robofab.com/
<ed> [that is in relation to SVG Fonts having a DOM and being editable that way clientside]
<ChrisL> http://www.fontlab.com/python/
<ChrisL> robofog http://typophile.com/node/13759?
CM: So out of this we need use
case on a Wiki pages
... so who is going to do this?
JW: Whoever has examples or ideas
of what people want to do
... so you could animate the stroke order of Asian
characters
... for a tutorial
AG: Someone will have to go through the minutes and put examples up on the wiki
<jwatt> put use case ideas here: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases ?
JW: Is that URL ok?
... problem is the interest group can't edit that
AG: so if we want input from them that's no good
<jwatt> ok, so http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases then?
<jwatt> the IG wiki is open to the public to make accounts, so anyone could add their ideas
AG: I think we should get the SVG IG to give us use cases
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