Forms weekly telecon -- 16 Sep 2009

<klotz> can someone else take minutes?

<wiecha> will check when we get everybody on the call

<wiecha> Scribe: Uli

<unl> charlie: john is on a acm conference, talking about xfomrs and odf

<unl> charlie:

<wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0017.html

wiecha: Demo Ubiquity at TPAC would be good; also SML

Steven: Charlie you should contact the person responsible for the agenda
... Is using namespace handlers in his xforms extension, to let the html look like XML

wiecha: I will see I can get on the panel

<wiecha> Scribe: Nick

<wiecha> scribenick: nick

wiecha: anything else we need to discuss about TPAC

ebruchez: want to confirm if we are meeting on Mo-Tu

<ebruchez> ok

<Steven> 4 days

<Steven> 2 at tpac (mo tu) and 2 at Xerox

nick: we agreed to meet on Mo-Tu in the TP hotel, and Thu-Fri at PARC

backplane

wiecha: we are generating a short report so it is consumable by the AC
... script based extensibility platform, Ubiquity SMIL
... you can expect drafts at the backplane e-mail list

DOM 3 events

<wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html

<wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0015.html

wiecha: we need a volunteer that does a detailed reading

Steven: XForms does use DOM 2 Events, and XML Events 2 would use DOM 3 events

wiecha: they are removing the namespace aware add and remove listeners

Steven: are implementations using them?

wiecha: are they used to send namespace events

Steven: Yes they are removing the namespace events
... do we have namespace events?

wiecha: no we don't have those

Steven: Oh yes, that is because we depend on DOM Events 2 which doesn't has namespaced events
... You can't use the argument that they aren't implemented because the spec hasn't reached CR yet

wiecha: I didn't found any usages 'in the wild'

Steven: this version is issued this month the previous version was 1 year old
... it is to early to say it is at risque before CR

wiecha: they shouldn't only look at browsers

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/16-forms-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-566 - Respond to DOM 3 events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Sep/0009.html [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-09-23].

wiecha: I can have a deeper look at it, and we can discuss it during FtF

ACTION Charlie to have a closer look at DOM Level 3 events, and the impact on XForms

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie

JSON in XForms

<wiecha> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-forms-minutes.html

wiecha: posts link to JSON in submission (see link above)

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-forms-minutes.html#item02

wiecha: Kenneth has an implementation of it?

<Steven> http://www.picoforms.com/

Steven: yes, and they gone public with it

wiecha: it is JSON on the wire, and unwrapping JSON to XML and wrapping the XML to JSON on submission

Steven: the use content type

wiecha: why is this sufficient, it only works for 100% XForms app, no app code is in Javascript in a component

klotz: isn't enough to access the instance data as JSON from within your Javascript component

wiecha: that's what we do, it's virtual XML

klotz: It is just the way you want to access it

wiecha: we have currently only the corners covered
... it would be cool if dojo can use XForms in the middle that allows an XML component to work together with a DOJO component
... you could see a JQuery expression language in XForms
... Leigh do you think it matters if they can use javascript or XPath in their binds

klotz: I think it would be enough that they could extract JSON from us and convert it back to XML and submit it back to us
... a copy is easier then a live JSON view on XML

wiecha: before we felt the conversion from JSON to XML is quite easy but the way around is more difficult

klotz: this is because there is no standard model
... it will be hard for mixed content
... but that doesn't need to be in 1.0

wiecha: Is it an interesting topic for the WG, what's the priority
... is there interest in accessing XForms instance data using JSON

klotz: yes there is, but I don't see the need for JavaScript expressions in calculates, refs, binds,...

Steven: XForms shouldn't change, the instances should like XML to the form, the instance can be populated from JSON but it should be viewed as XML

klotz: mixing JSON and XML is only interesting if you mix Script and XForms

Steven: I think you shouldn't care in mash-ups you should only care about modifying data

klotz: it is a separate problem to have binds in DOJO

wiecha: It is interesting to catch up about this with Kenneth

ACTION Charlie to prepare a discussion about JSON in XForms for the FtF

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie

Model Enhancements

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/ModelEnhancementRequirements

wiecha: Encapsulation is about reusing the model in multiple forms
... what are the issues with Encapsulation, what are the difficulties from a spec point of view?
... it are different DOMs are there any other problems
... what are the problems with having different DOMs?
... one of the arguments was code reuse, then you don't have the duplicate id problem

klotz: what happens when you import it twice

wiecha: don't go there it is covered lower on page (multiple inclusions)
... The next enhancement was Narrowing-Only Inheritance / Specialization
... (goes over the bullets on the wiki)
... it is about extending the original model
... I don't understand Fragment Inclusion completly

Steven: isn't it like css, including fragments opposed to including everything

wiecha: I see it is sub-setting a model
... It looks dangerous
... the original other of the model should prepare the model for it
... Adaptations / Composition -> re-use multiple times in the same form

<ebruchez> bye

rssagent, make minutes

<ebruchez> its "rrs", not "rss" ;)

- DRAFT -

Forms weekly telecon

16 Sep 2009

Attendees

Contents

backplane

DOM 3 events

JSON in XForms

Model Enhancements

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output