CSS WG telcon -- 25 Mar 2009

wow

Skype works over this connection

I am so impressed

<glazou> fantasai: : so you'll be on the call?

I think so

unless the connection to w3c is significantly worse than to skype test call

<glazou> ok

<glazou> Zakim: IPCaller is fantasai

melinda, I made a number of edits to css3-page, but I haven't checked in yet

melinda, don't have net access under linux from here, hopefully will get a chance next week

<melinda> fantasai, k, cool.

<scribe> ScribeNick: fantasai

fantasai doesn't have email access this week

<melinda> fantasai, I may have a few locally that we'll need to merge in...

Agenda

F2F Meeting in the Fall

glazou: deadline for 18th of March for TPAC was extended to April 2
... The number of groups planning to meet is already above expectations
... joint meeting with SVG Open?

chrisl: That was a fallback if the main meeting didn't go through

glazou: I guess we have to find another location for the f2f
... We still have time to find another spot for the TPAC

alexmog: Why?

glazou: THere's not enough room at TPAC, too many groups

alexmog: I thought we were going to go with SVG Open because the groups we wanted to meet with weren't going to be at TPAC

chrisl: They downsized the venue

Agenda Items

glazou: I was too busy to read all the comments
... Anybody have anything to add, please ask now

Bert: Is howcome's draft ready for publication or not?
... GCPM or multicol?

howcome: They're not done yet, will be done next week

Bert: css3-namespaces?

fantasai: not done yet

<glazou> shepazu: can you be on the call ?

<glazou> for item 5 on agenda

glazou: anything else?
... Sylvain?

<shepazu> sure

sylvain: We wanted to know if another CSS2.1 draft would be published soon

<glazou> thx

sylvain: Also wanted to know if anything about test suite will be on the agenda for June F2F
... So we know whether to budget in Arron

glazou: June F2F agenda is open for suggestions
... please suggest something more detailed than just "Test Suite"
... Holiday season starts in June, so please plan your hotels earlyu

Follow-up on @import

glazou: Is this resolved? I saw Sylvain follow-up on this on the mailing list

sylvain: I believed we solved this in Tokyo

Implementation Status Reports

glazou: Mozilla and Antenna House posted detailed implementation reports to www-style

<ChrisL> these are for css 2.1, or for 3?

<melinda> Chris, both

glazou: I think David Baron has in mind some coordination among browsers
... wrt implementation of CSS features for the Web
... I encourage other browser vendors to do the same
... If Opera, Microsoft, Apple can send this information to www-style as well, that would be very cool

:not() and pseudo-elements

glazou: There's a clarification to make in the spec

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0193.html

glazou: Sylvain posted a clarification
... I think David posted something else

<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0195.html

glazou: fantasai also said that she expects a future version of Selectors to accept more in :not() than a simple selectors
... Sylvain, which proposal do you prefer?
... I think David's proposal is more complete

sylvain: My proposal was just a clarification

glazou: Is everyone ok with David's proposal?

<glazou> #The negation pseudo-class, :not(X), is a functional notation taking a simple selector (excluding the negation pseudo-

<glazou> #class itself) as an argument. It represents an element that is not represented by the argument.

<glazou> #Note: Appending a pseudo-element to a simple selector results in a selector; selectors are not valid negation pseudo

<glazou> #class arguments.

Peter: The note doesn't clarify that a pseudo-element by itself is not a simple selector

fantasai proposese addding a Note that says "SInce pseudo-elements are not simple selectors, they are not a valid argument to :not9)"

minus the typos :)

RESOLUTION: sylvain+fantasai's proposal accepted

CSS+SVG Task Force

Shepazu to summarize

Doug: This basically started as something regarding transforms and animations
... David Singer thought it would be a good idea for general coordination
... It would also involve animations, transitions, other little issues that might pop up
... I'm just suggesting we make a mailing list
... So we don't have to keep cross-posting

glazou: Dean Jackson says he's ok with a mailing list, but not a sub-group

Doug: THere isn't really any formaility to a task force

chrisl: It's just somewhere that we can post to

Melinda: My question, this has started off as being specific to 2d-3d transforms
... but then became more general
... If it was just about transofrms, then I wouldn't want to subscribe
... If it's more general, maybe discussion of image-fit/image-scaling
... Then I need to subscribe
... Wheres' the efficiency benefit

ChrisL: It's avoiding cross-posting and diverging threads

glazou: My problem with the separate group
... is that the wg memebers are supposed to keep track of everything that's going on, even if it's not of direct concern to them

Doug: My concern wrt transforms, especially
... we are both working on different proposals that may end up being the same proposal
... If people are sending feedback ...
... The SVG WG has already gotten feedback about our trnasforms module
... It's got sent to the public SVG mailing list
... At what point are we going to be able to .. I'm concerned that emails going to get sent to both lists
... separately
... And we're not going to coordinate
... For SVG group, we just can't track everything that flows throught he www-style list

ChrisL: It's much more efficient for someone from the csswg to subscribe to just the joint task force list, and not to all the svg lists

Doug: For those of us that are subscribed to both lists, it's a big savings for the SVG group so we dont' ahve to track everything
... I'm sure you can have the joint mailing list shoved in a filter so it comes to your attention with CSS
... Also, if you're not interested in transforms you don't have to mointor the list for the next few months

Melinda seems to be ok with this

glazou: Open mailing list, or just publicly-viewable

agreement on open

public read-write

discussion of what David thinks

Doug: For specifications like transforms and animations and things like that
... That might be the default mailing list for sending comments
... I can understand why csswg might not want that, but just a suggestion. SVG group is ok with that

Melinda: I think if the CSSWG agrees to establish that new mailing list, I don't see why we wouldn't want to direct comments there

Doug: We could have a wiki if we wanted, I dont' think it's necessary

discussion of names for the list

<sylvaing> svg-css-mafia

www-svg-css-coord

public-fx

RESOLUTION: Make a joint CSS SVG task force, Doug to set it up, specs of common interest to send comments there, will be *public read-write*

Publishing Template Layout module

Bert: I think it's time for an update
... I think I sent also the changes
... I removed the part about tabbed layout. interesting, but not so urgent... people aren't talking about it at least
... Also updated the title
... That's why I want to publish it

fantasai: I thought it was called Template Layout MOdule?

RESOLUTION: publish updated WD of css3-layout

Wording for Issue 24

<glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24

It was accepted to fix the problem, but not exactly what wording iirc

<glazou> hi mollydotcom

<mollydotcom> am I an hour off again?

yeah

<glazou> yes :)

fantasai: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0091.html
... There were two woriding proposals there

<glazou> mollydotcom: leave the norwegian TZ :)

fantasai: We discussed them and Bert wanted to write another one that was clearer on how the two interact

<mollydotcom> it's the Arizona Time Zone

<CesarAcebal> I'm afraid I have had the same error with the hour than Molly. In Spain we are not still in Summer Time until this weekend. Sorry!

<glazou> np CesarAcebal

fantasai: to answer Sylvain's question, we need to solve this issue before publishing CSS2.1 again, because we regressed the text with the last resolution

<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0212.html

Bert summarizes his email

<glazou> fantasai, I can't hear you

fantasai: It shouldn't be limited to selectors
... We want all statements to fall under the matching brackets rule
... including @statmeents
... I don't think the reuqirement to "match" brackets and quotes is hard to understand, it's good enough for now I think
... but it needs to apply to statements and to declarations

<scribe> ACTION: everyone come up with an opinion on Bert's email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-css-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - everyone

Others

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html

glazou, dbaron had good comments on those

see above

linked above

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.htmlhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.htmlhttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JanMar/0207.html

<glazou> mollydotcom: see above

<ChrisL> it seems to be the usual way to remove things, set the attribute to ""

<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0256.html

dbaron's comment: I think this could be tossed out as a "not all requirements are

expressed in the formal grammar". It's a nice-to-have (and perhaps

somewhat complicated to get right, so maybe not worth it), but I

don't think it's a bug in the spec.

glazou: another issue where the grammar is completed by the prose
... we will always have these sort of things
... not worth the time and complexity grammar to fix

peter: why not fix in css3

glazou: ok, we leave for css3.. but not 2.1

bert: which are you talking about now?

glazou: points bert at url

Bert: So far I havent' seen anything that I would like to change in the grammar

glazou: So Yves posted at least 2 issues here
... Specifically about 2.1, do we want to change something?

RESOLUTION: keep grammar and prose as is for 2.1, defer issue to css3

<glazou> ==> tracker

<ChrisL> adjourned

Meeting closed.

chrisl, could you also make sure last week's minutes made it to the mailing list?

k, thanks :)

<plinss> ChrisL: +1.858 was me, don't know why Zakim listed me twice...

<mollydotcom> Bert?

<plinss> same for Howcome, he was +47.21

<Bert> Hi Molly

<mollydotcom> Hi! I just wanted to touch base with you regarding any web site needs

<mollydotcom> I sent an email, but I know you're busy - but I'm available to help

<Bert> Yes, I'm going to answer. I put something on line for you to look at.

<mollydotcom> oh good, if you could just email me now at mollyh@opera.com for that, I'll be happy to take a look!

<mollydotcom> I'm trying to streamline all CSS WG related items into that address now

<glazou> it should be møllyh@opera.com

<mollydotcom> Hahaha

<mollydotcom> I really wanted molly@opera.com but they couldn't do it

<mollydotcom> my alternative was mholzschlag@opera.com

<mollydotcom> so I figured mollyh was the best middle ground :)

- DRAFT -

CSS WG telcon

25 Mar 2009

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