27 Feb 2009

See also: IRC log


Shawn, Song, Yeliz, Doyle, Wayne, Shadi, Heather, Shadi, Jack, William, Sharron, Liam, Anna
Andrew, Marco




<scribe> Scribe: Doyle

<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor

Doyle: I'm on the head set and can't be heard now in the phone conference.

Shawn: Looking at the agenda. First item -

WCAG 2.0 Translations (to be updated) - any comments on this draft page?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/wcag20translations

Shawn: follow that link and you get to the WCAG 2.0 translations. Thanks for Shadi for drafting this and thanks to Alan. Good we read this. Alan pointed out some potential for not being open and transparent. Thanks Alan, a good example of why we brings things to EO.
... can we look at over all reactions on landing on this page. Comments on a high level. Wayne with your configuration?

Wayne: just fine

Shawn: Please skim since this is a recent addition.

Yeliz: I think it is very clear. One comment. In review for translation be useful to uplink to this page for voluntary translation. Interested in translating be useful to point to the page. Just asking?

Shawn: Shadi?

Shadi: I didn't completely hear?

Shawn: Yeliz was wondering to do a pointer to the translating WAI page for more information about translating documents.

Shadi: good point, specific place?

Yeliz: can you hear me?

Shadi: specific place?

<shadi> ACTION: shadi consider linking to the "translating WAI documents" page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Yeliz: intro or wherever/

Shawn: Shadi we can do at editors discretion.

Shadi: ok

Shawn: any other over all comments. Let's look at Alan's comment in email.

<shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2009JanMar/0078.html

Alan email:

<shawn> I think that there is a danger of fragmentation (horror) by not mentioning the translators' list [1]. It would be better to say to people that they should use that list but ask Shadi first. They may get useful background information from the list and find other people in their locale doing similar work.

<shawn> Their should be a mention of the "Other translations for WAI documents are provided separately" and then explain why WCAG 2.0 is different.

<shawn> Perhaps say not "Other translations for WAI documents are provided separately" but "All translations for W3C (and WAI) documents are covered by the translations section".

cool: -)

<shawn> It is also a dangerous precedent to encourage people to discuss these things privately as it can lead to confusion (and is contrary to W3C spirit).

<shawn> It is very useful to have a separate page for WCAG 2.0, but I think it should be an addition to the established translations section [2] not a rival.

Shawn: first point talking about issue of translator list, versus Shadi.

Alan: not anything more to add, but people be aware of translating list as well as consulting Shadi.

Shadi: Alan is absolutely right. There was a mention of the translators list. Took out mention because of explaining I felt my name was the good contact. Wording is confusing. A bit here of go through me rather than go through for background.

William: aren't you the translation czar?

Shawn: there are other people also to do translations. Thoughts on addressing this wording. Alan could you go over your other comments?

Alan: shouldn't mask or hide other parts of wider translation efforts. Mention should be somewhere on top of the main translation inititiative, but not hide or replace. My main idea here.

Shawn: ok, additional discussion here? Or Shadi and I take off line? One note on timing. Planning to announce this early next week. We don't have another change to review in EO. We could change at any point. We could still do that. Concerned we could do now as a group. We would send to list, but a short turn arou nd.

William: I don't understand why the second sentence covers this.

Shawn: first draft?

William: that sentence takes care of the objection.

<achuter> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Translation/

Shadi: I do think the links are in here. I agree with Alan it is not as clear. I would be happy to take another stab at this. To make this claer it is about the overall effort of the W3C. Missleading but minor stuff.

Alan: not necessary at the moment, but when more translation is done list by language, like French or Arabic by stage and what is going with that language.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/2005/11/Translations/Query?lang=any&translator=any&date=any&docSelection=choose&rec=WCAG20&note=none&tut=none&wai=none&i18n=none&qa=none&misc=none&sorting=byTechnology&output=FullHTML&submit=Submit

Shadi: that is what the translation database does. A way to select the WCAG 2 translations. I would hate to repeat that functionality.

Shawn: include the announced ones?

Shadi: the published ones.

Shawn: wouldn't include intent?

Shadi: no it wouldn't.

Shawn: at this point it would be useful to provide because there are so many in development.

Alan: could be unmanageable to read.

Wayne: good heading.

Shawn: one translators database doesn't have the up coming ones? What are your thoughts?

<Wayne> Please contact Shadi Abou-Zahra shadi@w3.org if you are interesting in contributing translations to W3C for WCAG 2.0.

Shadi: A bit hypothetical. I'm thinking of several things.

Yeliz: list of right?

Shawn: you would have to search for though.

Wayne: contact Shadi interested in translations contact Shadi W3C

<shawn> [[@@ suggested wording from Wayne: Please contact Shadi Abou-Zahra shadi@w3.org if you are interesting in contributing translations to W3C for WCAG 2.0. ]]

Alan: might be interesting why people know only authorized W3C translation. To know why WCAG is different with other W3C documents. Voted in by legislation and has a social interests.

Shawn: in order to promote adoption. A phrasing they say like what you said Alan.

William: alan?

<shawn> ACTION: [translation page] consider the stronger phrase of why, that is, include in official references (Shawn has wording) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Alan: original translation, most recommendations they don't care. Look at original doc, but with accessibility it is social and legal thing it is important to have an authorized. Having to other countries they must cite something in English. In official document they mention WAI, but doesn't say why this is important.

Jack: what do you think Shadi?

Shadi: I'm not sure if this belongs here or the WAI translation page.

Alan: I think specific to this one. Tends to be mentioned of legislation.

Shadi: I don't want to imply WCAG 2.0 is more special than the rest of W3C. WAI ARIA or ATAG might also benefit from this type of transaltion. Maybe add a sentence or two, but not go into benefits of authorization.

Alan: aside from need to know it might be interesting.

Shadi: much more generic advice. Shawn?

Shawn: I think we can pull the generic phrase of why we have generic translation. I agree this is not the purpose of this document. Whenever we do new document. We do a quick requirements analysis. Just one page we don't need to do that. We are now coming up to the goal or purpose. Lets do a real quick of what is the goal.
... mostly to have in the minutes. Shadi a quick few bullet points?

Shadi: the primary document is for people who want to do translations. For those being developed in that language or initiate in a language that is not already there.

William: I thought you would come here to fine out what was translated.

Shawn: another possible goal to find out what transaltion is planned or exist.

Shadi: that would have been the secondary audience you want to find that already anyway. Obviously to have a single place to pull from whole database.

Shawn: not as easy to find planned.

Shadi: either support actively or as least morally. Falls into that category.

Shawn: at ATIA someone active in WCAG 2 for implementation someone asked me what languages is it being translation into. Primary audience and use case. In general what languages is planned or imminent. She won't be involved actively, if not a Chinese plan, I might encourage that. If not one being discussed I will talk to people about that.

Shadi: my primary audience is someone to contribute to translations or initiate translations.

Shawn: what do other people think. Contribute or initiate translations?

Sharron: repeat?

Shawn: wants to see contribution or starts. But not do themselves?

William: I'm not sure if that is primary or secondary.

Jack: If that is the primary audience someone being involved for translating. What is the criteria? One is authorized. Don't have to explain in detail. Sommething about that. What the difference is.

<yeliz> http://www.w3.org/WAI/translation

Yeliz: I think a link to the translation explains the difference between authorized and not authorized. Just link to this page.
... is explained on that page.

Shawn: any comments? If that is the or one primary purpose and audience, it does make sense to have the primary list by language. I'm interested in a languages one or two.

Alan: the number of translation is interesting or the take up of the idea.

Shawn: A list by language is clearer?

Alan: one is finished or forty makes a difference in their enthusiasm.

Shawn: how does that influence how this page is laid out?

Alan: both ways.

Yeliz: useful to have concept where translation are listed by language. What is the state of as well as numbers. Doesn't exist might interested in supporting.

Shawn: Shadi?

Shadi: as another page or view of this page?

Yeliz: another section.

Shawn: another H2 status by language.

Alan: could have a table? Not easy to read.

Yeliz: might be useful to have authorization in a column/

Shadi: Alan could you repeat?

Alan: just a thought would be useful to use when mainting.

Shadi: I do prefer adding language.

Alan: useful off line to keep track of what information there is.

Heather: I've been reading through this. But I am trying to understand what the purpose is. The second sentence? Are we encouraging people or our job to provide translations?

<shawn> ACTION: [translation page] consider a table that has columns: language, authorized/volunteer, status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shawn: we appreciate your perspective. Good to have. An answer is, other people, W3C doesn't do the translation ourselves. Other organization do. This lets them know what is complete or in progress.

<shawn> ACTION: [translation page] consider listing by language instead or in an additional section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Heather: a chart or table is helpful. You went to look up a language and you can tell. I get lost in reading all these headings. A complete list of all that is available.
... I notice some links that don't work in the public draft.

Shawn: in terms of the links this is a rough draft. We expect to have linked by when we publish. Your first main point. To take time understand the categories by language would be easier?

Heather: I just want to complete lists of languages or available. Not on the list, one statement if you want to contribute someone would be helpful.

William: I wonder if it were in a table, instead of asking for the table we would be asking for the bulleted list.

Shawn: the use case the perspective of Shadi, me and Heather. organized by language.

Williiam: I am saying that.

Heather: not so intuitive. What is upcoming what is available. The whole goal to provide a list of language of transaltions. Varying into various categories. Just have language and status and whatever else you want to put in the column. Not here then not available yet.

Shawn: other thoughts?

Wayne: not organize by language but not available.

Shawn: goal not for someone to get a list of authorized, but someone interested in a specific language and in progress.

Wayne: in progress but not by language.

Yeliz: I think a good idea to organize by language. Presented by table or list, organize by language. Useful.

Sharron: I agree. I can also see the idea, how many languages do you have now. Not so useful for that but to have an index like that.

Shadi: yes, a good discussion, but one thing not drop. A draft for review. We want to point people to. Here is translation. Without knowing what language the person is interested in.

Shawn: highlight for both/

Shadi: right.

Shawn: sounds like the decision we want a list by language, question is that additional or main section. Any other discussion on that point, before Shadi takes a pass at it?

Shadi: thank you. Very helpful. A small simple document.

Shawn: any other thoughts on this page. A couple more pending...
... I Shadi under upcoming translation in progress and notification. What is the difference?

Shadi: actually three section. A notificaiton is not an official start, someone who wants to do. Only when a relevant stakeholder to review is it official. And starting, a difference between an intent.

Shawn: How important is that distinction?
... for some it is not so important. how important for others.

Shadi: for someone who wants to do, for example with Spanish one sent an intent, and another wanted to do. Don't give up a notification of intent is a very early stage. Won't be as visible the difference between those. Difficult to explain in just a column what this means.

Shawn: we can explain that. Is this a first step but not answer every detailed question. Simplicity versus thorougness. Links? Changed the layout would that still be relevant?

Shadi: I played with that, having a full bullet point be a link looks very full. In a table format with language and another with status, how do we link that?

Shawn: If you have a version in a language translation. or draft, but only email announcement then the email itself. Imagine first column is language and then anotehr for status of planned translation. In some place we have a link to what is done, and in other cases we would have a link to the email annoucement?

Doyle: language!!!!

Sharron: kind of messy question.

Shawn: Shadi what do you think?

Shadi: it is possible to have a language in Hungarian and someone has an authorization process. I would have to put two entries. A bit difficult to understand why there are two Hungarian proposals.

Shawn: i think it would look more clear. Anything more?

<shawn> ACTION: [translation page] consider including the language in its language listing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shawn: reminder we will post early next week. When we have another draft we will send to the EO list. Comments you will need to send right away. After posting you can still send comments, but not significant. Small are welcome afterward.
... going on to the next agenda item.

Referencing WAI Guidelines and Technical Reports - any comments on final draft? Supporting information:

Shawn: some clean up but is mostly done. Main changes to the table itself. Some simplifying the text and going back to the original order. Skim to see.

Wayne: easier to use than the original.

Shawn: any comments?
... ok the next item is the WAI resources.

WAI Resources annotated list - any thoughts on easy improvements for:

Shawn: a reminder this page is main site navigation in the left side of the page, or under an H2 site navigation. Clink one internally you get to link navigation page. A collection of all those annotated pages.
... the question is there any any easyh fixes. No extensive changes, but quick fixes. As opposed to re-doing the information archtecture. Liam sent a couple of quick things and I addressed in email.

William: where is where pwd use the page?

Shawn: I have an action item to do that and be high priority. High Priority?

Doyle: yes

Shawn: is not a published yet. That is why it is not. There is an easy work around.

Sharron: my priority too.

Wayne: always been and still is.

Shawn: available in a couple of months in the site there is a place holder for it. The work around to do an over view page for it.. This is long and be in the technical review format. We could have an overview page for it. Have this listed. Though not published we could link to from the overview page.
... Any other comments on that? I have another question.
... Anna sent an email about a different organization on the page where we have our resoruces and Liam wondered why this is here. We consiidered having another front door to the resources. Maybe grouped more by audience. Web maker, policy maker, audience might be interested in. This page is actually somehwat hard to find.
... one main link to that is hidden on the home page. How useful is this page for getting an overview and links to the information we provide? Given that we won't do a major redesign in the next few months. Would it be a priority to look at a different page as a front door. First of all how useful as it exists?

Sharron: I get discourage where you have to scroll and scroll, this is in that category, but as a one stop it is pretty useful.

Shawn: others? How useful?

Heather: A lot of links. ...

Shawn: basically how useful is this page?

Heather: I think it has a lot of information and resources. Cognitive overload. Not overwhelm. At the same time we have so many resources. Time to go through.
... helps to navigate how we put into categories. Headings and how to get to what they need. What is the primary purpose. To dump all alvailable in WAI?

Shawn: primary purpose to have a fairly descriptive list of resources organized in the same way as the site navigation. To reinforce the site navigation.

Heather: pretty much site resources? Pretty overloaded.

Shawn: this is more navigation. Heather's question points to the answer. In terms of another page or improving from all the input. Don't want to increase the visibility of this. Create page with a different purpose.

Heather: that would be helpful. So much to filter through. A busy person to go down and scroll. Not alphabetized in any sense. I still have to get to and if you had another page with proper order I could just link to.

Shawn: they are one separate pages and in the navigation. It serves one purpose. but not the other.

Williiam: in a table of contents. Could have plus and minus signs to find what you want. Just click not have to scroll.

Wayne: I find it like no rhyme or reason. Plop from one subject to another item, No why to it.

Shawn: ok.

Yeliz: I'm not sure why this page. Looks like the expanded version of the navigation list.
... I'm not sure of why this page is useful.

William: you get here from different places?

Shawn: actually only one place. On the old site it had a WAI resources. We didn't want to get rid of because someone might have linked to that. For persistence that it would still exist. Sounds to like the right decision. We didn't think at the time it was super useful.

Yeliz: useful.

William: Google would get you to place you can't reasonable predict. Five other people who have the same title to get to. They get from Google and not what you just put up.

Shawn: yes. I will clarify in the minutes and make sure or send in email. The purpose was the persistence of the URI but not increase visibility of this but inherently why did it. I remember now. Any other comments?

Plan for WAI-ARIA review (replies from our previous comments are pending)

Shawn: prepare for WAI-ARIA went to last call this week. We talked about in the end of January. I sent our comments a week or two later. They did address some of our comments. Some addresed, some they will after publication. And some they won't. We'll get those, they might want more clarification. Want to take another look at the WAI-ARIA because is this a last call. We will discuss from EO perspective. Is the organization clear, wording. If you h
... ok And then to reminder about the f2f.

Reminder to complete the WAI EOWG F2F Meeting November 2009 questionnaire

Shawn: please complete by next Tuesday.

William: face to face in Madrid?

<yeliz> zzakim, unmute yeliz

Shawn: no, could not get enough people.

Shadi: I am not going.

Yeliz: you won't be there?

Shawn: W3C has significant travel restrictions.

Yeliz: in the main conference? W3C track?
... you won't be there (correction from previous note)

<shawn> ack "Upcoming, Translations"

<shawn> ack "

Shadi: we are trying quite a different format this year. Yeliz if you are going? Get in touch with Shawn, Shawn with you, Have some statment in all those sessions.

Yeliz: separate W3C track?

Shadi: some kind of ....style to use. Check with Shawn first or me Shadi.

Shawn: any other questons?

Wayne: written yet?

Shawn: Alan talked about and has some changes to make.

Wayne: start with WAI-ARIA?

Shawn: yes please. Send email to remind everyone and then Alan.

William: item three March 6 teleconference. Bigger issue at the moment is summary. Running into hundreds of exchanges.

Shawn: you are welcome to participate. Once a consensus is made or final proposal we would bring into EO we might be involved around the issue. Look at from that standpoint. Some of us are actively involved and or monitoring. anything else? Other wise we will end early.

Wayne: wrap up the minutes?

Shawn: I need a volunteer to clean up the minutes.

Wayne: last week is still not available?

Shawn: everyone have a good weekend, thanks Sharron.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: [translation page] consider a table that has columns: language, authorized/volunteer, status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: [translation page] consider including the language in its language listing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: [translation page] consider listing by language instead or in an additional section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: [translation page] consider the stronger phrase of why, that is, include in official references (Shawn has wording) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: shadi consider linking to the "translating WAI documents" page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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Found Scribe: Doyle
Found ScribeNick: doylesaylor
Present: Shawn Song Yeliz Doyle Wayne Shadi Heather Shadi Jack William Sharron Liam Anna
Regrets: Andrew Marco
Got date from IRC log name: 27 Feb 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html

WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: [translation page] consider the stronger phrase of why, that is, include in official references (shawn has wording) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action02]

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WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: [translation page] consider listing by language instead or in an additional section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action04]

WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: [translation page] consider a table that has columns: language, authorized/volunteer, status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-eo-minutes.html#action03]

People with action items: consider linking shadi

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