RWAB telecon

16 Dec 2008


See also: IRC log


CharlieWiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, jackjansen




<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

<jackjansen> Grmpf. My machine is as good as completely frozen:-( Can anyone tell me the phone# and code, please?

<jackjansen> :-)

Where Do We Want to/Need to Go?

CW: participation thin; worried that not high enough priority; may be don't have a precise enough deliverable
... spirit of outline i circulated -- had hoped would do more technical/application work
... how to get prototyping ideas to "product" either real or roadmapped on wiki; who are we targetting and how to go after them

Target Audience

JJ: note also shows an issue i've encountered myself; on 1 level identified some areas and technologies that are out there and allow people to create RWAB; if was to create something tomorrow, would be lost -- haven't created list of what to do or roadmap "if you want to produce a RWA look here and here and here"
... disconnected bag of technologies now -- need to integrate -- here is what there is, here is how use it; then decide, document or deliverable (library) that they can relate to and use

CW: who is it we are trying to sell that to -- the implementor? the strategist? what level of descriptino -- conceptual or nuts-and-bolts

JJ: something Pablo reminded me is that XGs can spawn working groups; aiming for people to attract ot become members of WG

CW: never shared that feeling; my PoV is trying to connect dots; cross-cutting technologies; W3C lacks cross-cutting vision
... still some nuts-and-bolts oriented, but not particularly a WG

JJ: don't see clearcut WG coming out of this XG

CW: who is at center of what we are doing?

JJ: on other hand, if at end of XG life what is left is a document that shows people on various levels, where they should look for W3C and related standard techs that will help solve problems, fill needs

CW: would be quite useful;
... people outside industry don't know about a lot of the existing technologies; roadmap to assembly has yet to be drawn
... HTML container DTD; XForms controller; SVG - graphics engine; SMIL - timing mechanism; XML Events
... currently each individual has to connect the dots for herself
... no one has assembled everything and ordered it and put lipstick on it

JJ: you are looking at it from managerial PoV
... haven't had to create -- you are lead of team and have clear vision of what silverlight can do -- how to use it with scripting
... roughly follow CW's outline
... also think that document on more component level would also be good to have
... joe-web-designer plays with XHTML and CSS and XForms and now needs to tie together; 90% chance now that will use javascript to do what needed, when there are technologies more declaratively designed, that should be used

CW: set of patterns that are available to people in a repository that they can use
... a cookbook -- here is a set of read-made examples

JJ: examples before february?

CW: no; just trying to nail down our specific audience
... reason having conversation is because concerned that if i write the document, it will be a tree falling in the woods

JJ: cookbook may be aiming too high -- would be happy if describe each technology in a nutshell to at least encourage people to look at technology; documents such as stevenP's "XHTML for HTML Authors" -- great model; gives enough of feeling of technology to encourage it's use

CW: could be fleshed out
... use steveP's note as pattern
... timing, SVG - canvas from API PoV, but SVG promotion important

JJ: both SVG and XForms have disadvantage that they are small technology that does one thing; big specs but tackling limited set of questions; we are tackling a huge questio, should show when 5 ways of doing something appropriate using standards/W3C based techs
... now that we are talking, though wondering if should do a demo app?

CW: was going to say that -- best way to lead authors to info they need

GJR: danbri and i are going to ARIA enable OpenSocial to make a virtual visually impaired computer users group - could incorporate other techs

CW: can't really pin them down; big picture not compelling

JJ: in a way, people are right; each technology in its own field is nice, but conflicts with other techs; we should emphasize integration
... over past year become convinced that have something nice for integration, but how to communicate to outside world that helps real people solve real issues

CW: integration is the core part; not just "piling on" specs, but mixing technologies; not widget, but single document with data, controller, SVG -- blend of technologies

JJ: demo app -- aiming for complex demo apps because in real life will be using these things in complex situatns, but shouldn't we be shaping world what a rich web app IS
... show in such a way that integration present and professional can realize integration issues herre -- if do in flash, will become inaccessible

CW: break down integration problem into series of rich fragments
... comes back to patterns idea; illustrate aspects of integration
... as JJ said, how to add timing to group of controls
... how to add validation to a group of data items

JJ: where we shine is integration; should aim for something - single app that shows everything, even if just a toy app

CW: built out of progressive exposure; break down into components

JJ: depends on app

CW: how one explains what it is itself - look at from data PoV, control PoV, timing integration

JJ: somebody came up with app

GJR: virtual weather station
... could work with professor who proposed it; use student's work

CW: harvest out of them best practice
... separate or collaborate

GJR: that would be up to you as chair
... can contact prof and ascertain what stage is at what doing

<scribe> ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather station [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]

CW: if do this, any chairs of existing WGs at W3C pay attention to it? any AJAX authors pay attention to it?
... IG may come out of this work to perform evangelizing

GJR: plus one
... explains SVGIG aggregator site

CW: shoot for jump-starting content with IG proposal - what would attract people
... example app needs to be motivating

JJ: why not implement server side -- what is advantage of serving as app

GJR: if i were to implement in real life, i would definitely handle things server side

JJ: data aggregating is anonymous data - GPS position - if need data from source a and data from source b but don't want the one to know i'm using the other...
... reason to do web app is combining data from 2 sources: information on bank account should be secure, info about another private source (a store) don't want bank to harvest purchasing habits and don't want store to know banking bussiness would do

as web app

CW: downside: not much input flavor
... not capturing input, or serving rich data
... leave app choice to later; if trying to populate IG as outcome of XG, what would be tools IG should maintain

GJR: aggregation site like planetsvg.com

CW: motivate people to participate, have to have something to spark their interest
... would really like to build something

JJ: thinking of apps, should we think of a game?
... simple games have a bit of secrecy -- info don't want to reveal to peers

GJR: like JJ's idea

CW: input as well as output
... could start with "game" broadly as generalization
... multiple server side pieces, multiple client side pieces, distributed devices

JJ: virtual world games logic done centrally, rendering done client side; want ability to "hide" what you are doing locally
... direct feedback equal better user experience

CW: lot of potential

GJR: very good idea - timing of actions in game

CW: what would be good game to model

JJ: strong point of RWA as opposed to Flash and on the other hand organization wide server-side, client-side; strong points of solution? can we think of game that highlights strong points?

CW: game requirements: countdown timer, ability to move around, ARIA live regions, mash-up

GJR: talks about danbri and openSocial - will post more to list

CW: richness of open social?
... think about OpenSocial, games

GJR: OpenSocial probably a longer term project

CW: discuss potential of games on list

JJ: upcoming meetings?

CW: this will be last of year

JJ: can do next week, but not week after

CW: take poll on list - if not, then sixth


Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather station [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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Succeeded: s/JJ:/CW: as JJ said,/
Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: CharlieWiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, jackjansen
Present: CharlieWiecha Gregory_Rosmaita jackjansen
Regrets: John_Boyer
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Dec/0012.html
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Dec 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html
People with action items: gregory

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