See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus
<jackjansen> Grmpf. My machine is as good as completely frozen:-( Can anyone tell me the phone# and code, please?
<jackjansen> :-)
CW: participation thin; worried
that not high enough priority; may be don't have a precise
enough deliverable
... spirit of outline i circulated -- had hoped would do more
technical/application work
... how to get prototyping ideas to "product" either real or
roadmapped on wiki; who are we targetting and how to go after
them
JJ: note also shows an issue i've
encountered myself; on 1 level identified some areas and
technologies that are out there and allow people to create
RWAB; if was to create something tomorrow, would be lost --
haven't created list of what to do or roadmap "if you want to
produce a RWA look here and here and here"
... disconnected bag of technologies now -- need to integrate
-- here is what there is, here is how use it; then decide,
document or deliverable (library) that they can relate to and
use
CW: who is it we are trying to sell that to -- the implementor? the strategist? what level of descriptino -- conceptual or nuts-and-bolts
JJ: something Pablo reminded me is that XGs can spawn working groups; aiming for people to attract ot become members of WG
CW: never shared that feeling; my
PoV is trying to connect dots; cross-cutting technologies; W3C
lacks cross-cutting vision
... still some nuts-and-bolts oriented, but not particularly a
WG
JJ: don't see clearcut WG coming out of this XG
CW: who is at center of what we are doing?
JJ: on other hand, if at end of XG life what is left is a document that shows people on various levels, where they should look for W3C and related standard techs that will help solve problems, fill needs
CW: would be quite useful;
... people outside industry don't know about a lot of the
existing technologies; roadmap to assembly has yet to be
drawn
... HTML container DTD; XForms controller; SVG - graphics
engine; SMIL - timing mechanism; XML Events
... currently each individual has to connect the dots for
herself
... no one has assembled everything and ordered it and put
lipstick on it
JJ: you are looking at it from
managerial PoV
... haven't had to create -- you are lead of team and have
clear vision of what silverlight can do -- how to use it with
scripting
... roughly follow CW's outline
... also think that document on more component level would also
be good to have
... joe-web-designer plays with XHTML and CSS and XForms and
now needs to tie together; 90% chance now that will use
javascript to do what needed, when there are technologies more
declaratively designed, that should be used
CW: set of patterns that are
available to people in a repository that they can use
... a cookbook -- here is a set of read-made examples
JJ: examples before february?
CW: no; just trying to nail down
our specific audience
... reason having conversation is because concerned that if i
write the document, it will be a tree falling in the woods
JJ: cookbook may be aiming too high -- would be happy if describe each technology in a nutshell to at least encourage people to look at technology; documents such as stevenP's "XHTML for HTML Authors" -- great model; gives enough of feeling of technology to encourage it's use
CW: could be fleshed out
... use steveP's note as pattern
... timing, SVG - canvas from API PoV, but SVG promotion
important
JJ: both SVG and XForms have
disadvantage that they are small technology that does one
thing; big specs but tackling limited set of questions; we are
tackling a huge questio, should show when 5 ways of doing
something appropriate using standards/W3C based techs
... now that we are talking, though wondering if should do a
demo app?
CW: was going to say that -- best way to lead authors to info they need
GJR: danbri and i are going to ARIA enable OpenSocial to make a virtual visually impaired computer users group - could incorporate other techs
CW: can't really pin them down; big picture not compelling
JJ: in a way, people are right;
each technology in its own field is nice, but conflicts with
other techs; we should emphasize integration
... over past year become convinced that have something nice
for integration, but how to communicate to outside world that
helps real people solve real issues
CW: integration is the core part; not just "piling on" specs, but mixing technologies; not widget, but single document with data, controller, SVG -- blend of technologies
JJ: demo app -- aiming for
complex demo apps because in real life will be using these
things in complex situatns, but shouldn't we be shaping world
what a rich web app IS
... show in such a way that integration present and
professional can realize integration issues herre -- if do in
flash, will become inaccessible
CW: break down integration
problem into series of rich fragments
... comes back to patterns idea; illustrate aspects of
integration
... as JJ said, how to add timing to group of controls
... how to add validation to a group of data items
JJ: where we shine is integration; should aim for something - single app that shows everything, even if just a toy app
CW: built out of progressive exposure; break down into components
JJ: depends on app
CW: how one explains what it is itself - look at from data PoV, control PoV, timing integration
JJ: somebody came up with app
GJR: virtual weather
station
... could work with professor who proposed it; use student's
work
CW: harvest out of them best
practice
... separate or collaborate
GJR: that would be up to you as
chair
... can contact prof and ascertain what stage is at what
doing
<scribe> ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather station [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]
CW: if do this, any chairs of
existing WGs at W3C pay attention to it? any AJAX authors pay
attention to it?
... IG may come out of this work to perform evangelizing
GJR: plus one
... explains SVGIG aggregator site
CW: shoot for jump-starting
content with IG proposal - what would attract people
... example app needs to be motivating
JJ: why not implement server side -- what is advantage of serving as app
GJR: if i were to implement in real life, i would definitely handle things server side
JJ: data aggregating is anonymous
data - GPS position - if need data from source a and data from
source b but don't want the one to know i'm using the
other...
... reason to do web app is combining data from 2 sources:
information on bank account should be secure, info about
another private source (a store) don't want bank to harvest
purchasing habits and don't want store to know banking
bussiness would do
as web app
CW: downside: not much input
flavor
... not capturing input, or serving rich data
... leave app choice to later; if trying to populate IG as
outcome of XG, what would be tools IG should maintain
GJR: aggregation site like planetsvg.com
CW: motivate people to
participate, have to have something to spark their
interest
... would really like to build something
JJ: thinking of apps, should we
think of a game?
... simple games have a bit of secrecy -- info don't want to
reveal to peers
GJR: like JJ's idea
CW: input as well as output
... could start with "game" broadly as generalization
... multiple server side pieces, multiple client side pieces,
distributed devices
JJ: virtual world games logic
done centrally, rendering done client side; want ability to
"hide" what you are doing locally
... direct feedback equal better user experience
CW: lot of potential
GJR: very good idea - timing of actions in game
CW: what would be good game to model
JJ: strong point of RWA as opposed to Flash and on the other hand organization wide server-side, client-side; strong points of solution? can we think of game that highlights strong points?
CW: game requirements: countdown timer, ability to move around, ARIA live regions, mash-up
GJR: talks about danbri and openSocial - will post more to list
CW: richness of open
social?
... think about OpenSocial, games
GJR: OpenSocial probably a longer term project
CW: discuss potential of games on list
JJ: upcoming meetings?
CW: this will be last of year
JJ: can do next week, but not week after
CW: take poll on list - if not, then sixth
ADJOURN
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/JJ:/CW: as JJ said,/ Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: CharlieWiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, jackjansen Present: CharlieWiecha Gregory_Rosmaita jackjansen Regrets: John_Boyer Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Dec/0012.html Got date from IRC log name: 16 Dec 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html People with action items: gregory WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]