EOWG 04 Apr 2008


William, Doyle, Andrew, Shadi, Alan, Yeliz, Liam, Sharron, Henny, Helle
Lisa Pappas, Sylvie Duchateau, Wayne Dick, Shawn Henry
Andrew, Shadi


WAI-AGE presentation from CSUN 2008

Shadi: has everyone seen agenda, received background material?
... we hope the slide set will serve as introduction, and will be informative and readable offline as well.

William: How often and where will this be presented?

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/0315-CSUN-WAIAGE/overview.html

shadi: Presentation in Beijing to W4A conference, also Andrew will be presenting at same time in Grenada Spain. We will add information as it is developed, so it will be a changing work.
... slide written in Slide-E and there may be accessibility issues, although they have not been thoroughly tested. We will develop different formats, but first want to finalize content..

Andrew: Keep in mind that these are only the slides, and it is missing the oral content.

William: Are there speaker notes?

Andrew: A few, for graphs, etc, but not the extensive notes we have for the WCAG 2.0 slides.

Shadi: This is not intended for other people to speak on our behalf on the WAI_AGE project, but just for people to learn about the basics of the project. So we do not intend to be as elaborate on speaker notes.
... let's go through the slides and get your comments. Let me know if you want me to stop at any point.
... slide 3 presents overall goals, slide 4 lists project activities...

Andrew: As we move rapidly through the slides, the group will recognize some of the previous imput, findings and trends.

Shadi: So let's look at Slide 10, where we begin presenting findings.

Andrew: OK, slide 10 presents some long term trends across Europe...

Alan: would that not be better if percentages were presented at the beginning?
... proportion is more important than raw numbers. Is it clear from this graph?

Helle: This kind of graph is hard to read and interpret. We must look for a long while to know what the numbers are. I am not sure how to present it more effectively, but this is difficult.

Andrew: It shows the highest percentage...

William: I think the numbers would not fit in the gray part, so that's why they put them above.

Liam: And perhaps a series of graphs, presented as pie charts would be more understandable?

Yeliz: So the focus is on Europe or is it intended to be a world-wide view?

Andrew: Yes the project is funded by the European Commission, so while we will look globally, we have tried to give specific information for Europe.

<Liam> (I was thinking of a pie chart that changed across several slides to show the change over time).

William: This is a world wide phenomenon.

Helle: I am not sure I agree that statistics are needed from all over the world, but simply mention that this is happening everywhere.

Shadi: Maybe we do not have sufficient data to say that we expect the same trends all over the world. They may differ and then the questions will lead us away from the central goal of this project. We want to highlight more of who were are talking about, our main focus is what the developments are in Europe.
... We may reference other parts of the world, Australia and the US, but the focus is meant to be European. Yeliz, does that answer your questions?

Yeliz: Yes, but throughout the presentation, the focus seems to be Europe, and we could broaden the discussion.

Shadi: Maybe we should consider that, including at least a bit more global references.

Doyle: I agree with Helle about the intelligibility of the graphs. Perhaps an additional bar graph should be added.

Andrew: I lifted the graph directly from a Eurostat report. But I have included the ability to you can reference a table that provides equivalent information, including the percentages.

William: What leaps out at me is the fact that 30% of the people in Europe will be over 65 years old by 2050. That is amazing.
... in the mideast the statistics are very different.

Shadi: which brings back the point that if we started comparing statisitcs around the world, it would be a different study.

<scribe> ACTION: Andrew will consider simplifying graph, adding percentages. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Andrew: On Slide 11, emphasis is a demographic similarities, references to retiring baby boomers, etc

William: Is the term baby boomers used elsewhere?

Doyle: Well, the Chinese, for one would not understand this word, since they have tried to stop their own baby boom.

Shadi: What is the alternative?

Doyle: The term may not be understood, but the fact of the growth of an aging population will be since the Chines have had no wars. Post world war II aging population growth is one possibility.

Helle: We could just call it the big population years, I think everyone understands that more people were born immediately after the war than in subsequent years.

Henny: Post war generation?

All: yes, sound good.

Shadi: But consider the translatability into other cultures - which war? In a presentation one can can explain, but in written material it is more difficult.

Helle: we call them grey gold, the people with the money who have grey hair.

Andrew: Or grey nomads, when they travel.

Helle: Another question for Andrew...are you interested in other statistics about the use of IT among the elderly population? We have some studies in Denmark..

Andrew: Yes, it would be excellent.

<scribe> ACTION: Helle to send statistics to Andrew [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Andrew: Slide 12 reiterates the reasons why everyone needs to have access and to be online
... Slide 13 list reasons why elderly people may experience problems online. Talks about self-image, incremental nature that prevent aging group from identifying as having a disability.

William: Part of the self-image and reluctance for self identification is likely die to the fear of exclusion, categorization. It is a much more important factor than it is usually understood to be. Disability community says "Nothing about us, without us." That comes up nearly universally with the aged as well.

Andrew: Slide 14 puts numbers around the previous assertions, hearing loss at differnt stages for example and how those numbers grow in proportion within older populations

Helle: The numbers you are presenting, are they inclusive of those who already have an established hearing impairment?

Andrew: It is not clear from the source, but I expect so.

Helle: It should be explicit, how many had hearing loss before 50.

Shadi: why is that important?

Helle: Because you state that it increases over time and should have a firm baseline.

Doyle: You could have the base number and demonstrate how it changes over time.

Shadi: Before the table, make a statement that frames the point of the table, provide context.

<scribe> ACTION: Andrew to add context statement for table. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action03]

William: Two tables are needed, one for vision, one for hearing

Shadi: Henny do you have such a statistic?

Henny: I am not sure, but it is likely.

<scribe> ACTION: Henny will see if they have those stats and send to Andrew [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Andrew: Slide 15: A look at the literature search, where it came from, etc

Shadi: Were most of the papers cired here coming from Europe because Europe was your focus or is that actually where the majority of research on these related topics is coming from?

Andrew: Yes, that was the case - most research I found was coming from Europe.

Shadi: Perhaps it should be noted..

Andrew: Slide 16 presents some of the early indications from the research we found...not much consideration of aging issues within the web community, not often cross-referenced.
... authors sometimes confused the operation of the application with the operation within the application. There were cases where it was unclear if the authors lacked technical knowledge or it was a writing error.

Shadi: comments on 16, 17, 18?...Slide 19 is anecdotal, Andrew want to comment?

William: This experience happens to people all the time, regardless of age.

Shadi: One of the things this project will do is point at these commonalities and tease out the difference between usability issues. Not easy, but interesting

<yeliz> Mary Zajicek

<yeliz> Her home page is: http://cmsdomino.brookes.ac.uk/computing/personalpage.php?id=37

Yeliz: I like this quote and can contribute others from Mary Zajicek

Shadi: One of the differences between elderly and disabled...

Andrew: Yes, not only reluctance to self-recognize but also recognition of comon experince among support system, family and trainers. Will be looking at how to raise awareness that because you are acquiring impairments, does not mean you must give up computer use.

Shadi: what is the acceptance level of AT among that community?

William: Sure, someone might say, I'm not disabled, I am just blind.

Andrew: Slide 21 has a few suggestions for improving the friendliness of sites for aging populations. As you read through, you may think...well, that's just WCAG.
... the point is the commmonality.
... go on to Slide 22, there are additional issues of font size, alignment, etc that make a bigger difference for older folks than for young people. Other general usability issues.

Shadi: The aim of the project is to identify overlaps, gaps and highlight them. As well, we can advise the technical groups in WAI and develop educational resources that may inform user agent work and other tech specs.

William: Do we need to compare aging recommendations to WCAG in the same way that we did with the Mobile Best Practices?

Shadi: Yes, the literature review is meant to do just that, but is more geared to researchers. if we find that the existing research is inadequate, we can develop something like that, but it is likely to be down the road

AndrewL Final slide, number 23 invites participation

Yeliz: If we put online, it should link to lists and other online resources.

<andrew> a/AndrewL/Andrew:

Early draft of literature review

Shadi Yes good point, thanks

Andrew: Questions that we posted...any comments on document structure?
... overall organization of material?

Doyle: I have some background in the issue, but think it is basically quite readable and good.

Liam: Yes, it is quite long, but readable and overall well put together.

William: And it reflects the slideshow.

Yeliz: Yes, I like it...are you considering adding to the document some of the points made in the slideshow that reference guidelines?

Andrew: Yes

Shadi: Methods Used section and the subsections, that is where the guidelines are.

Yeliz: I can see the studies that are presented, but would like to see a summary pulled out of the research that includes some of the findings

Shadi: Maybe a summary and conclusions rather than conclusions and recommendations. Could think of separating out the two later on.

Andrew: It is a possibility

William: Presumably some of the sections contain recommendations.

Andrew: Yes, some have recommendations as part of the findings

Helle: A place for this might also be in the Abstract, and I like the idea of summary and conclusions. But existing recommendations may not be the ones that WCAG would recommend.

Yeliz: Yes, in this document the recommendations should be ours, not those presented previously.

Andrew: So I could summarize the recommendations by other people, but make the distinction between those and W3C

Helle: And make the same changes we discussed in the slide show in this document.
... have you thought of making this a hypertext document? And link it to the list of collected consulted references?

Andrew: The intention is to publish this as a Working Group Note so it will be HTML.

Helle: It is a nice document

William: A great document, I wish it was now in HTML

Shadi: Right now the plan is for it to be a Working Group Note, the reason being to give it more formal status and encourage it's consideration by scholars.

Helle: PDF for the Commission?

Andrew: Has anyone adjusted the format since they received it?

Liam: I opened it in Open Office

Henny: I changed the font

Andrew: gives directions about navigating and altering the document.

<shadi> [for the record: the formal deliverable for the Commission is the literature review published as HTML on the W3C site; PDF or DOC formats are a possibility but not a requirement]

Andrew: Methods and approaches of these studies varied considerably. To organize the most useful fashion, we may need to include some of each, because I have not found just one way to slice through it that captures all of the approaches.

William: What about the approach before there was a web? Like background about attitudes toward aging that shape exactly why this is happening.

Andrew: That this is a new situation, but not a new issue?

Helle: Isn't there something like that in the introduction?

Andrew: Yes
... I do find pre-web ICT issues, but not much broader than that. But the introductory quote at the start of each chapter would be a nice thing to do. So send those along as you find them.

William: Perhaps because of me reaching all these ages, the web has gotten to be increasingly unreadable due to color/contrast that renders it illegible. In addition to having font SIZE correction, need an easier way to change color contrast.

Shadi: This work will be a contribution to address that.

Andrew: Are there any comments on the way we can slice or cut the literature?

Helle: Do they have a majority that fall into any one of the approaches you have listed here?

Andrew: No which is why I have this quandry.

Shadi: what difference would that make?

Helle: If MOST fell into one category, it maight help. The most difficult may be the connection to disability.

Andrew: I will take another look, but think the way to go may be to summarize previous approaches, summarize findings, summarize results that have come out of training the elderly, specific web design aspects - problems with search, forms, etc for the elderly - , and findings about elderly looking for health and/or government information
... and maybe a catch-all including things like input devices and how people who are losing mobility react to such devices
... picking out elements of each of these .

Helle: In Denmark, they are offering many classes, grouped under How To...do email, do searches, communicate with local government. Elearning courses, most one-day seminars that are very specific.

Andrew: Reinforces that approach.

William: Wonder if that curriculum could be generalized and put on the web for other countries.
... at my local Senior Center I still encounter technophobia, but that will disappear as this generation ages.

Andrew: It is an issue that will diminish over the next decade and beyond.
... but there are plenty middle aged people who are still affected.

Helle: There are many aging people who need training, depending on educational and life circumstance

William: A major push at Intel now is putting the Internet in your pocket, which is what the Iphone claims to do. That will change a lot of things because it must be made mobile usable.

Sharron: Are you working yet with SeniorNet? They have many courses as well.

Shadi: We do want International participation, so our intention is to reach out to them

Helle: The training like Senior net is world wide.

William: But seniors still must overcome technophobia in order to participate.

Helle: Here is one in Denmark, an online course telling me how to use the Internet that requires Flash player and resetting the screen resolution. Andrew you should take a look at it.

<scribe> ACTION: Helle to send link to Andrew [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Andrew: Great example of how intended self-help is not usable by those it is intended for.
... OK, farther in the document, are there other questions that we should be asking in these sections?
... Need to find some simple statisitics, specifc to Europe

Yeliz: I Will send for the UK, and some book references as well

Andrew: Thanks

<andrew> http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/index.cfm/title/10402

Andrew: For instance the Australian government has been publishing "Australia at a Glance" that provides an array of statistical information and many sections are relevant to this research.. What I need is something along those lines from European countries.

Helle: We'll see what we can find for you.

Shadi: So are there any preliminary findings that you need EO feedback for?

Andrew: Where do we draw the line between WCAG accessibility and what is traditionally referenced within usability. So far we have tried to focus on those with function, sensory impairments but it may be worth discussion of how broad to go?

Shadi: Accessibility is itself broad - the technical aspects as well as user involvement. But in many cases there are user agent, computer literacy and technology access issues among others that may impact the way seniors can use technology. What does the group think of the spectrum between usability (including computer literacy) to accessibility?

Liam: User testing with elderly users is fascinating because their assumptions really are different than those of younger users. So it would be wise to include the point that technical specifications are not enough, but must include users of this age.
... older people tend to be more patient, for example, more relaxed about loading times, etc. They seem to be willing to put up with lower standards.

William: But we get over it and end up cursing our screens a lot.

Shadi: What have others seen as issues that might be more or less important...Henny?

Henny: We do not do the user testing, we have a group that does that for us.

Liam: If there is something that you want to test, we may be able to put it into the testing schedule.

William: we should have more WAI-AGE meetings

Shadi: All are welcome to participate in the task force. If you have interest, please let us know. Thanks Andrew and to the group. Bye.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Andrew to add context statement for table. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Andrew will consider simplifying graph, adding percentages. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Helle to send link to Andrew [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Helle to send statistics to Andrew [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Henny will see if they have those stats and send to Andrew [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/04-eo-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2008/04/11 16:55:23 $