<IanH> what is the access code?

the usual owlwg

<IanH> I didn't see an ??Px when I joined so don't know how to tell zakim who I am

bijan? deb? jim?

no regrets from jim, I think

<IanH> How do I raise my hand?

bijan was sick last week - he hasn't been sending email today, to he might be sick again

<alanr_> 41# to "raise your hand"

<ewallace> The 301 num is probably Conrad

<IanH> ack ??P26

<Conrad> I'm (301) 975-3818

<IanH> Bijan not in office -- trying home

<IanH> Tracked down Bijan -- he is on his way!

<ewallace> Hi Bijan.

<bijan> Hi, ewallace

<IanH> I don't know how this jar person is, but I guess that they shouldn't be on the call?

<bijan> Jonathan Rees

<bijan> Who's with alan, I believe

<IanH> OK - sorry!

scribe?

<bijan> "Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG)

<bijan> The most complete overview

<bijan> "

<IanH> Skype dropped me -- back soon!

<scribe> ScribeNick: pfps

Elisa: twice as many overviews as primers

Bijan: of what sort?

Elisa: not necessarily rec track
... overview - .....

<jar> jar = Jonathan Rees of Science Commons. Alan asked me to help out so I'm a WG member. I'm not on the call, just on irc.

Elisa: primer - longer document - some insight - not for experts
... quick start guide - pointers, a little bit of stuff - that's it
... short is needed

Bijan: guide goals are - short, entry point
... seems to align with Elisa's point
... longer guide is not necessary
... home page can serve as entry point
... inter doc pointers are very useful
... multiple documents are their own load
... home page can play role of entry point

Alan: Guide = Primer - narrative story
... missing from Overview - small orientation document, delta from previous

<ewallace> I am against tath

Alan: Can we merge reference, syntax, and semantics?

<Conrad> I thought Jim H was against that. I am also. The reference is supposed to be easy to use. Having a swtich is effectively different documents.

Alan: merge reference and syntax - i.e., no separate 'reference'

<Conrad> We should distinguish folding from what the user sees.

Bijan: there is little information hiding needed - only reorganizaion

<Conrad> Folding effectively produces separate documents, which is more what I'd like to see.

<alanr_> chat by talking, not in irc, please

<alanr_> elisa suggesting "fold out" as overview. More than links to document. Summary of features of the language

it would be nice to have Elisa's methodology on overview vs primer in the minutes

Elisa: overview = "fold out" document

<bijan> What?

<alanr_> will ask

Elisa: guide has to have a story
... issues with wine as an example ontology
... also guidance on how to do things

Pfps: primer has a story

Elisa: guide also has an application - gives people a feeling of how to use an ontology

<alanr_> elisa: Some code and suggestions to run themselves as addition to primer

Primer

<alanr_> Bijan: Detailed comments not necessarily useful here, as this is first draft

Bijan: not interested (right now) in detailed comments

<alanr_> Bijan: Proposes that overview and guide can be covered by this document

Bijan: primer is first draft
... primer is supposed to cover overview and guide

<alanr_> Bijan: To the degree that it can cover both overview/guide would like to hear people's comments

<alanr_> Peter: Direction should be clear. Better direction than guide+overview of old

<bijan> +1 to introduction

Evan: I like primer - it is an introduction

<alanr_> Evan: Primer is an "introduction"

Evan: fundamental tension between overview and guide - can there be one document
... we may not need a long guide
... ... what do we want to accomplish with UFD?
... I would go for reference and introduction
... also use cases - but this is not necessarily UF

<bijan> I want to 1) not turn people off OWL, 2) pull people into OWL, 3) leave them unconfused on key point, 4) help them to make sound decisions

Evan: Primer is better introduction than Overview + Guide

Alan: to meet charter we need to show that our documents meet the goals

Bijan: what is needed - better replacements for old docs or meeting the deliverables

Conrad: want intro & reference
... also want guide
... upgrading existing makes more sense
... want to draw in software community into OWL - so emphasize differences

<bijan> +1 to pulling in software folks and making them unerstand how OWL is different

Conrad: guide is longer (and reference is also)

Alan: primer is a slightly longer document

Bijan: length per se is not the goal

<dlm> possibly consider comprehensive as a replacement for longer

Conrad: different readers - "executives", ... - need different levels of explanation

<dlm> +q

Bijan: what about comprehensiveness

Deborah: users search in guide for constructors

Bijan: users use guide as reference?

<alanr_> +1 - sounds like deb description is reference

Bijan: if reference was better organized then it might serve the same purpose

Deborah: users use guide as [cookbook] when they can't hack the references
... that's why I agree that there is a tension between overview and guide
... I thought that primer would be comprehensive for constructors

<bijan> +1

Alan: comprehensiveness in tension with narrative?

Ian: only 10 minutes left ...................................................................
... did Deborah say that Primer could replace Guide

Deborah: if it was constructor comprehensive

Ian: is there an agreement that Primer could replace Guide?

Deborah: yes - but also think about wine agent

Conrad: i didn't use guide

Bijan: does guide have to be a reference as well?
... let's not end up with more documents (in rec track)

<IanH> That seems reasonable. Where would the primer fit into that?

Peter: primer is already almost constructor comprehensive

<dlm> can we also separate this as a potential replacement for the overview?

Alan: Primer can overtake guide if constructor comprehensive

<IanH> can try

<IanH> Proposal: primer could become a replacement for the guide modulo a few concerns

<bijan> +1

<alanr_> Proposal+: Going primer does not yet settle exclusive authorship/editorship

Alan: hang on please

<bijan> +1

two proposals?

<ewallace> +1

<IanH> +1

<dlm> with the agreement that we are only discussing the guide (and not the overview) +1

+1

<alanr_> +1

<Conrad> 0

separate mailing lists are against W3C policy, I think

<IanH> bye

how do we make the minutes accessible?

<alanr_> I think I just did it. hang on let me check

<alanr_> nope, but might be slow.

<alanr_> peter, at a minimum, the raw log is visible now

<alanr_> erg. I'll figure it out - have to check notes

<alanr_> again, thanks for scribing!

<alanr_> ok, we're good

<bijan> sandro, I believe

who bells this cat?

<sandro> I think you either type them in yourself, or you send me bribes.

from RRSAGENT?

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found ScribeNick: pfps
Inferring Scribes: pfps
Default Present: +1.301.975.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, Elisa_Kendall, +1.518.608.aabb, IanH, pfps, Conrad, Deb, bijan
Present: +1.301.975.aaaa Evan_Wallace Elisa_Kendall +1.518.608.aabb IanH pfps Conrad Deb bijan

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 28 Jan 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/01/28-owl-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.