See also: IRC log
<Rinke> bernardo?
<bernardo> zakim ??p21 is bernardo
<Ratnesh> P19 = Ratnesh
<IanH> unmute me
<scribe> ScribeNick: achille
<IanH> My phone just went dead!
<alanr> i don't hear anyone
<IanH> Me neither
<IanH> unmute me
<uli> I could hear a child just now
<IanH> unmute me
<IanH> I am!
PROPOSED: Accept the previous minutes
<pfps> +1 to accept minutes
<ivan> +1
+1
<Rinke> +1
<Ratnesh> +1
RESOLUTION: minutes accepted
<pfps> NONONONON
<Rinke> except for the images
ACTION Send email reminding people to make wiki account
POSTPONE
<scribe> ACTION: Sandro to migration of documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html#action01]
<pfps> sandro sent out a message concerning where to put the images
<scribe> Postponed
<pfps> there are *two* documents
<jjc> alan said avout reminder email that the naming conventions were unclear, and Sandro is clarifying
<scribe> ACTION: 6 to Done [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html#action02]
<pfps> should the link to the duplicate page be removed?
<Rinke> +1 to removing the (link to the) duplicate page
<scribe> Topic : Issue 2
<pfps> both http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Issues and http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/HowIssuesAreProcessed tell how issues are processed
<Rinke> perhaps turn HowIssuesAreProcessed into a redirect to Issues
<ew> +1 to Bijan's viewpoint on this
ian: do new properties affect backward compatibility
<Ratnesh> P19 = Ratnesh
<ew> Cardinality Q was also turned down
<bijan> ooo, excellent point ew
<bijan> Does peter actually object? Can't we just disagree with the old group?
<Carsten> I disagree. There are usually *many* disjoint classes. Only ontology designers overlook that and
<Carsten> usually fail to state it.
<IanH> ack
<bijan> I see peter's point...this is a owl full thing
<pfps> many large disjointness sets (a disjointness set with thousands of elements)
<pfps> there can be lots of small disjointness sets
<IanH> How do I ack someone else?
alanr: the assumption that there will not be a lot of disjoint is not correct
<bijan> +1 to alan
<Carsten> peter: if you have thousands of classes, why not?
<pfps> if your disjointness sets are small then you don't get many extra triples
<bijan> we get this request all the time
<bijan> NO NO NO NO
<bmotik> It is not just the disjointness. In the functional spec, you can have equivalences between n classes, but in RDF you can have only pair-wise equivalences. This is inherited from OWL 1.0 RDF mapping.
<pfps> but it is easy and direct to put a large equivalence set into RDF with no size increase
<bmotik> The same thing also holds for properties (disjointness and equivalences). It is probably a good idea to come up with the same solution for all of these constructs, not just for disjointness.
<bijan> +1 to bmotik
<jjc2> disagree with bmotik
<bmotik> And there are also sameAs and differentFrom on individuals.
<DougL> +p
<DougL> +q
<pfps> Alan's case seems to be quite compelling
ianh: AllDisjoint does not necessary have a negative impact on implementations
<IanH> ?q
who is speaking?
<DougL> that was me, achille
<bmotik> OK, I'll just add this to the issue.
<pfps> i never had an objection, just a caution
<IanH> ?q
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to mention back chat
<alanr> +1
<pfps> ok by me
<ew> +1
<DougL> sounds good to me
ianh: should we make the change in the docs for AllDisjoint
<jjc2> +1
<ivan> not against
+1
<Rinke> +1
<zhe> +1
<Carsten> +1
<FabianNeuhaus> +1
<uli> +1
<MikeSmith_> +1 for AllDisjoint
<bijan> +1 for AllDisjoint
RESOLUTION: Issue 2 AllDisjoint will be added in the docs
<bijan> ?
<pfps> do it the same way that allDifferent is handled in OWL 1.0
<alanr> presume that the rdf mapping will be O(n)
<pfps> it is in the FS already, right?
<bijan> pfps, no! it seems!
<bijan> ah it is
<bijan> disjointClasses
<bijan> Here: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Syntax#Class_or_Description_Axioms
<pfps> how about: treat DisjointClasses like DifferentIndividuals?
RESOLUTION: AllDisjoint will be added to the functional syntax and the RDF mapping
<bijan> """The disjointClasses axiom takes a set of descriptions and states that all descriptions from the set are pair-wise disjoint."""
<bijan> It is in
<alanr> RESOLVED: Issue 2 A O(n) rdf mapping of disjointClasses will be added
<pfps> votes?
<pfps> we changed the resolution, so it is probably best to confirm the change
<alanr> +1
<pfps> +1
<bijan> +1 for current resolution
+1
<DougL> +1
<Rinke> +1
<MikeSmith_> +1 for current resolution
<Ratnesh> +1
<MartinD> +1
<uli> +1
<jjc> +1
<bernardo> +1
<ivan> +1
<bijan> it taeks an arbitrary number
<bijan> disjointClasses�:= 'DisjointClasses' '(' { annotation } description description { description } ')'
<bijan> Brackets!
<alanr> Individual(type(owl:Thing)) legal in 1.0
<uli> but this doesn't help us to refer to it?
<alanr> "overzealous"
<jjc2> Jeremy: was the lack of this a bug? or deliberate?
jeremy: no anonymous individual in owl 1.1. Is it a bug?
pfps: is a bug
<bmotik> +q bmotik
<alanr> tree-like
<alanr> also see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/23
<pfps> I would like to see a proposal
<bijan> Ooo, interesting!
<bernardo> we don't have the universal role in Owl 1.1
Carsten: related to having a universal property. should we consider adding universal property?
<bernardo> but, it was included in SROIQ
<uli> which is why we mention this here
Carsten: it will allow anonymous individuals
<jjc2> [I would like non-tree like stuff, as well as tree stuff, and this issue is only the first step but ...]
Carsten: Universal property is more general. It will make anonymous individuals a special case
<Carsten> correct
<uli> yes
<alanr> in above we are talking about "tree-like" networks of anonymous individuals
bmotik: arbitrary anonymous individuals could yield to undecideability
<bijan> How about close this with tree ones and opening a new issue
<uli> but there aren't any anon. inds. in the owl1.1? Can you clarify, Boris?
<bmotik> To be more precise: nontree like anonymous individuals (in an ABox) easily make ontology entailment undecidable
<alanr> Ian and I had a discussion about this a while ago concerning when we could distinguish skolems from bnodes
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to propose resolution Issue 3 is a bug report. Action pfps to fix
<alanr> I will look it up
<jjc> jeremy bows to the chair
<alanr> negated property values 1 issue
<bijan> Action to boris to start the discussion?
<bijan> Or someone?
ianh: we will not be able to resolve it now
... we should continue on emails
<pfps> make sure the emails include ISSUE-3 or ISSUE-23
<jjc2> +1 to bijan
<Carsten> I am not on the mailinglist
<Carsten> But working on it :)
<jjc2> (neither am I, but can partifcipate nevertheless
<bijan> zkaim, mute me
<bijan> YEs!
<bmotik> Sire
<bijan> +1 to boris starting it
<bmotik> Sure
<scribe> ACTION: Boris to send an email on issue 3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html#action03]
<scribe> Topic : Issue 11 and 28 (datatype facets)
<bijan> Is this only for hte XML sytnax?
<bijan> If so, shouldn'tw e defer until we've decided about the XML sytnax?
<ew> Its part of the structural spec
<bijan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-dev/2007JanMar/0127.html
<bmotik> The reason why we have no several facts is rather arbitrary: we just didn't think of it. I believe we can easily extend the language to be more practicable.
<bijan> I don't undersatnd this issue ;)
<jjc2> Why can't we use user names in this syntax ?
pfps: I thought the issue was about the XML serialization
<bijan> We could ask evren to come on
<bijan> next week
ianh: let's move on since we do not understand it
<bmotik> The XML schema is now different from what is reporeted in the issue. It was likely a bug that I just fixed later.
<bmotik> I was talking about issue 11
<bijan> They both go back to evren's email
<bijan> Both 28 and 11
ianh: Let's nominate someone to start an email discussion
<bmotik> +q
bmotik: it is about having multiple facets.
<bijan> That sounds promising!
<pfps> suggest sending a message to Evrin to ask him if he thinks 11 is resolved
<jjc> move to email
bmotik: we should add them it was a bug in the
XML Schema
... no problem either for issue 28
<bijan> close 11 and resolut 28 with action to liberalize the syntax
<scribe> ACTION: Boris to send an email about issue 11 fixed and how to fix issue 28 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html#action04]
<ivan> see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/28 notes
<bijan> This relates to whether we can use the XML Schema syntax
<bmotik> I can stay
<jjc> (I would like to go on the hour)
ianh: let's talk about the second f2f
<pfps> browser bombed
<jjc2> peter: thje second f2f seems a long way away but it's not - Jeremy wonders whether it's on the moon.
pfps: collocate the 2nd f2f with OWLED
<bijan> +1
<Carsten> is OWLED collocated with any conference?
<bijan> Carsten, no
<jjc2> dates of OWLED again?
<jjc2> dates: 1-4 April 2 days
pfps: Proposed date 1,2,3 of April 2008
<pfps> this is "interim" OWLED which will not be colocated
ianh: online poll should be done
... online poll should be done
pfps: any objections for the date?
<bijan> Who would host?
<ivan> for info: april 21-25 are the dates for WWW2008
<uli> possibly
<ivan> i will be in china
<alanr> +1
<bernardo> possibly
<MarkusK> possibly
<Carsten> -1
<jjc> possibly
<pfps> maybe me, but not too likely
<bijan> possibly
<FabianNeuhaus> -1
-1
<GiorgosStoilos> possible
<Elisa> -1
<ew> -1
<Ratnesh> maybe
<Rinke> -1
<MikeSmith_> -1 to www2008
<zhe> -1
<bijan> So, w3c would host?
<jjc> ivan: w3c china could help host
<bmotik> Where is the XML Schema stored in the working drafts? I see the XML Ser. document, but it has no pointer to the actual schema.
ivan: would be happy to help with hosting it in
China
... if the group decides to do it in China, we can do it
pfps: we also need time to do publicity
<scribe> ACTION: pfps to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html#action05]
<bijan> bmotik, I don't think they are there...I suppose you could upload it ot the wiki and attach it to the page
sorry I send the action to pfps
<bmotik> bijan, how do I do that? I don't know much about Wikis...
ivan, how do I change it to Ianh?
<ivan> good question:-)
<bijan> hmm. Not obvious to me, boris
<scribe> ACTION: ianh to send an email about your proposal collocated with OWLED [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html#action06]
sorry pfps
<Rinke> the wiki needs to accept uploads of that type: it usually only accepts jpg's etc
<bijan> Oh! look in teh sidebar
<bijan> There's an "upload file"
thanks pfps
<ivan> f2f meeting page
<pfps> have Ian send out an email about this
bijan: please add your name in http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Manchester_F2F f2f if you are coming to the first f2f
<Zakim> bijan, you wanted to talk about first f2f
<bijan> yes
<bijan> \I'm done
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to www2008
<pfps> yes
<bijan> close as manya s possible
<pfps> let's knock off the editorial ones
<ivan> for cca. 10-15 minutes
<bmotik> I tried uploading the XML schema, but the system said that .xsd is not a supported extension
<bijan> Ok, send an email to sandro
<pfps> jeremy is probably the closest thing we have to an expert here
<bijan> I propose to reuse the Turtle string quoting conventions
<pfps> which are?
<bijan> Common, comprehensive, easy to lift
<MarkusK> http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/#sec-strings
<bijan> I feel pretty sure that the Turtle spec covers everything RDF can handle
<pfps> these are roughly the same as RDF quoting
<bijan> Wait! are we resolving on taht?
<pfps> Yes, wait.
<bijan> Yes, alanr, curies can represent properites that rdf/xml cannot
<alanr> so can abstract syntax
<bijan> So can turtle
<pfps> pointer to rdfa?
<Rinke> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/
<IanH> Sorry, but I have to run off
<Rinke> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/
<bijan> We'd need that for more arbitrary patterns of bnodes
<bijan> But that's delegated to email discussion
<alanr> PROPOSED: Resolved issue 13 by adopting quotation from turtle (\). Resolve 14 by adopting SPARQL syntax for extended qnames.
<MarkusK> +1
<alanr> +1
<bijan> +1
<ivan> +1
<Elisa> +1
<Rinke> +1
<MikeSmith_> +1 resolution for issue 13
<uli> +1
<MikeSmith_> +1 to resolution for issue 14
<GiorgosStoilos> +1
<pfps> +1 on the straw poll, but I would like to take a look to finalize
<Ratnesh> +1
<MartinD> +1
<pfps> I guess that we can invoke the one week rule if necessary
<alanr> RESOLVED: Resolved issue 13 by adopting quotation from turtle (\). Resolve 14 by adopting SPARQL syntax for extended qnames. (with checkin one written into the spec)
<bmotik> bye
<Rinke> bye
<uli> bye
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/does/ do/ Found ScribeNick: achille Found ScribeNick: achille Inferring Scribes: achille WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Alan Carsten CarstenLutz Doug DougL Elisa Elisa_Kendall Evan_Wallace Fabian FabianNeuhaus Fabien GiorgosStoilos Here IBM IVML Ivan JeremyCarroll MarkusK MartinD MikeSmith MikeSmith_ P12 P16 P17 P18 P19 P4 P5 P6 P8 PROPOSED PhD Ratnesh Rinke ScribeNick Zhe_Wu aaaa achille alanr bernardo bijan bmotik cgi-irc conrad dates evan ew ian ianh item jeremy jjc jjc2 peter pfps someone trackbot-ng uli zhe You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Got date from IRC log name: 7 Nov 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-owl-minutes.html People with action items: boris ianh pfps sandro WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]