XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

3 Oct 2007


See also: IRC log



Gregory_Rosmaita, Schnitz, Roland, Steven, Rich, yamx, ShaneM
Alessio, MarkB, Tina
Steven, Roland


Oedipus: joint forms task force finally inching out of neutral (everyone's posted to the list and we have a plan of action and a draft charter

RM: go through action items and clear out as many as possible

SP: need shifting
... today hotel deadline for TPAC
... worried that a number of people stated last week can't come -- now cancelled 2 successive f2f meetings, so we REALLY need to get together soon
... number of WGs that want to talk to us: WAI wants to discuss ARIA

RS: ARIA team or HTML WG? ... Simon Pieters had proposal

RS & GJR will be at f2f

SP: as many of us should turn up and meet regardless -- can't cancel this one -- too many important opportunities at TPAC
... role meant to go to LC last week -- need to check with Shane as to status; ok to go to last call, all i need is a draft to mount

Testing XHTML Basic 1.1

SP: any news yam?

Yam: Have beem browsing testset -- September 7 to 14 -- already october, guess is don't have ready now, but will have browsing component ready before TPAC;

SP: nothing currently, but hope in october (11 days time) will be more tests done then

Yam: yes

SP: need to write activity statement for upcoming AC meeting; would be good to include report of status of testing and concrete plans

SS: been involved in W3C for quite a while; member of HTML WG in 1999, started forms sub-group that became Forms WG; used to work for SAP, now have own software company (second) -- right now, interested in getting XML apps using only XML applications, including an XML database; always had interest in HTML; editor of modularization of HTML; interacting with customers as well as being a developer

SP: Shane, last call of role -- thought new draft supposed to be delivered monday

SH: ok

SP: will follow up with ShaneM after call

Media type (again)

SP: issue arisen again; can someone explain exact problem?

SP: recall message from Shane about difficulty locating

SM: f2f meeting (cannes or venice) -- WG decided to declare victory -- text/html is the media type, that's that -- then we thought better of it and switched it back -- should serve as...

SP: my recollection is "should be" application/+xml

SM: yes

SP: suggest that it resolution be marked in red letters

RESOLUTION: as earlier resolved XHTML family languages should be served as application/+xml

SM: found pointer to decision

<ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item03

SP: cannot make a MUST

SM: lachlan hunt requested a MUST; we replied should be a SHOULD

SP: what shall we do -- shall I reply or you or already resolved and just needs a pointer

SM: Steven can reply

<scribe> ACTION: Steven convey reply about media type to pertinent parties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

role cardinality

SM: DanC edited our namespace document -- anyone notice?

SS: new HTML WG claiming ownership of namespace

SM: need to have a discussion on that

RS: talking about role -- thought other WG owned namespace -- can't make change here and not expect problems with other documents with dependencies to namespace

SM: who manages?

SP: ok to use 1999 namespace in XHTML2, but there are others who don't want us to use it

RS: asking ownership questions -- if put ARIA into namespace, effects other work

SP: issue bound to come up anyway -- XML serialization of HTML5, which means going to have to own namespace
... conflict between backwards compatability; 2 UAs use the namespace -- don't want to have yet another namespace

RS: wrestle at Boston Garden over ownership at f2f?

SP: registered to have meeting

GJR: meetings conflict with our meetings

SP: work ongoing at WHAT WG -- WHAT WG version will be compatible with w3c version

GJR: this is a BIG bone of contention in the HTML WG
... multiple requests for 1 track development

SM: as a WG we need to sort out namespacing issue for ourselves

SS: don't think should resolve issue on WG level right now

SP: only change on formal request
... started as "ARIA Proposal"
... long thread that started at end of september continuing in october

<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0016

GJR: email threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration

also includes proposals and counter-proposals

RS: what they want to do is be able to provide migration path from HTML to XHTML for role property; HTML4 doesn't have extensibility provision; worked out a best practices technique for UA devs to implement ARIA in web 2.0 apps; want incorporated into HTML5, but be supportive of XHTML; wanted all ARIA roles to be part of XHTML namespace -- like navigation landmarks for document; other thing was have ARIA properties included in that namespace

SP: attribute named "aria-hidden"

RS: whole suite of ARIA properties they want in namespace; defined namespace for properties to integrate ARIA into HTML4/XHTML1.0; proposal is "aria-" and property name to be included in 1999 XML namespace which HTML WG thinks it owns
... didn't like idea of role just for accessibility; wanted to call role accessibility; nixed -- other needs for roles; don't like that it is a qname in serializatino

SP: HTML serialization?

RS: yes, but calling it XHTML serialization

SP: in HTML serialization no concept of namespaces which causes big trouble

RS: proposal now is all ARIA values for role would be used without namespace qualifier

threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration

<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0106/aria-proposal.html

SP: sent to www-archive so has w3.org URL

SM: to sum up, they are requesting that some things be addded to collection of role values in XML namespace

RS: want ARIA states and properties stated as "aria-[rolename]
... ARIA properties provide additional accessiblility info to generic elements that then are mapped to accessiblity API; HTML5 glued "required" property onto form elements; which would take precedence -- HTML property or ARIA property; aria- supposed to prevent collisions

SP: colon in namespaces chosen for reason; allowable character for attributes; for HTML processing why not demand that a fixed prefix (aaa: or aria:) as prefix of attribute always; colon a name character, so get namespaces in XHTML version, and non-namespaced in HTML version

RS: trying to avoid namespaces altogether, i think; don't look at as extensible XML based doc, but simply a serialization of what can be done in HTML without extensibility
... aria- proposal from Ian Hickson


RS: ARIA role has a number of roles for widgets, structural elements, etc.

SM: if they want to introduce new attributes, that's fine with us -- hyphen about names, not values; context of attribute values, if requesting that bunch of values to added to XHTML values, valid request as long as don't conflict

SP: they want to put into XML namespace so don't have to deal with namespaces in role attribute

RS: right -- wai-role:CURIE with type following it
... grid -- want role=grid

SP: trying to fight extensibility via namespaces
... HTML WG chartered to do serialization which must have namespaces; contrary to what XHTML2 chartered to do

SM: did for Ruby, did for Forms

SP: true

RS: if a colon in HTML world for role value, treated as one string instead of qname; pointed out problem: have qnames -- what about use of SVG to create flow charts? not thinking ahead long-term, minunderstanding of real issues

SP: one of the first places where extensibility comes in, is roles; extensibility may never happen if don't use qnames -- everything will end up in HTML namespace

SM: trying to ensure extensibility mechanism built-into language; role needs to be used

SP: same complaints coming from them about RDFa

SM: don't have leg to stand on

RS: don't have issue asking for role values to become part of namespace; shooting self in foot if go down non-extensible route

SS: there is actual money value in efficiency boost by using XML and namespacing; tag soup devalues and compromises accessibility
... if use XML database, doesn't matter what app grammar you're using -- have to say this is HTML and have to treat like this and that is XML so treat like that, it all breaks down; flow chart example of RS interesting - that's where things are going

RS: their bet is on XBL
... XBL not going to be adopted by industry leaders

SP: mark has implemented XBL on top of IE

RS: not that can't be done, but will it?

GJR: XBL draft dangersously underspecified

SP: transition call for modularization 1.1 -- shane and roland, can you be on call?
... will contact shane and roland about date and time for call
... get last call of role up -- any other issues?


RS: how many at F2F

SP: StevenP, Roland, RichS...

GJR: will be there unless joint task force meeting

SS: will be there whole week

GJR: as will i

<Schnitz> oedipus: maybe :-)

<Schnitz> thanks

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Steven convey reply about media type to pertinent parties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2007/10/03 18:59:26 $

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Succeeded: s/ShaneH/ShaneM/
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Found Scribe: oedipus
Inferring ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, Schnitz, Roland, Steven, Rich, yamx, ShaneM
Present: Gregory_Rosmaita Schnitz Roland Steven Rich yamx ShaneM
Regrets: Alessio MarkB Tina
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0015
Got date from IRC log name: 3 Oct 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html
People with action items: about convey media reply steven type

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