See also: IRC log
Oedipus: joint forms task force finally inching out of neutral (everyone's posted to the list and we have a plan of action and a draft charter
RM: go through action items and clear out as many as possible
SP: need shifting
... today hotel deadline for TPAC
... worried that a number of people stated last week can't come -- now
cancelled 2 successive f2f meetings, so we REALLY need to get together
soon
... number of WGs that want to talk to us: WAI wants to discuss ARIA
RS: ARIA team or HTML WG? ... Simon Pieters had proposal
RS & GJR will be at f2f
SP: as many of us should turn up and meet
regardless -- can't cancel this one -- too many important opportunities at
TPAC
... role meant to go to LC last week -- need to check with Shane as to
status; ok to go to last call, all i need is a draft to mount
SP: any news yam?
Yam: Have beem browsing testset -- September 7 to 14 -- already october, guess is don't have ready now, but will have browsing component ready before TPAC;
SP: nothing currently, but hope in october (11 days time) will be more tests done then
Yam: yes
SP: need to write activity statement for upcoming AC meeting; would be good to include report of status of testing and concrete plans
SS: been involved in W3C for quite a while; member of HTML WG in 1999, started forms sub-group that became Forms WG; used to work for SAP, now have own software company (second) -- right now, interested in getting XML apps using only XML applications, including an XML database; always had interest in HTML; editor of modularization of HTML; interacting with customers as well as being a developer
SP: Shane, last call of role -- thought new draft supposed to be delivered monday
SH: ok
SP: will follow up with ShaneM after call
SP: issue arisen again; can someone explain exact problem?
SP: recall message from Shane about difficulty locating
SM: f2f meeting (cannes or venice) -- WG decided to declare victory -- text/html is the media type, that's that -- then we thought better of it and switched it back -- should serve as...
SP: my recollection is "should be" application/+xml
SM: yes
SP: suggest that it resolution be marked in red letters
RESOLUTION: as earlier resolved XHTML family languages should be served as application/+xml
SM: found pointer to decision
<ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item03
SP: cannot make a MUST
SM: lachlan hunt requested a MUST; we replied should be a SHOULD
SP: what shall we do -- shall I reply or you or already resolved and just needs a pointer
SM: Steven can reply
<scribe> ACTION: Steven convey reply about media type to pertinent parties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
SM: DanC edited our namespace document -- anyone notice?
SS: new HTML WG claiming ownership of namespace
SM: need to have a discussion on that
RS: talking about role -- thought other WG owned namespace -- can't make change here and not expect problems with other documents with dependencies to namespace
SM: who manages?
SP: ok to use 1999 namespace in XHTML2, but there are others who don't want us to use it
RS: asking ownership questions -- if put ARIA into namespace, effects other work
SP: issue bound to come up anyway -- XML
serialization of HTML5, which means going to have to own namespace
... conflict between backwards compatability; 2 UAs use the namespace --
don't want to have yet another namespace
RS: wrestle at Boston Garden over ownership at f2f?
SP: registered to have meeting
GJR: meetings conflict with our meetings
SP: work ongoing at WHAT WG -- WHAT WG version will be compatible with w3c version
GJR: this is a BIG bone of contention in the
HTML WG
... multiple requests for 1 track development
SM: as a WG we need to sort out namespacing issue for ourselves
SS: don't think should resolve issue on WG level right now
SP: only change on formal request
... started as "ARIA Proposal"
... long thread that started at end of september continuing in october
<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0016
GJR: email threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration
also includes proposals and counter-proposals
RS: what they want to do is be able to provide migration path from HTML to XHTML for role property; HTML4 doesn't have extensibility provision; worked out a best practices technique for UA devs to implement ARIA in web 2.0 apps; want incorporated into HTML5, but be supportive of XHTML; wanted all ARIA roles to be part of XHTML namespace -- like navigation landmarks for document; other thing was have ARIA properties included in that namespace
SP: attribute named "aria-hidden"
RS: whole suite of ARIA properties they want in
namespace; defined namespace for properties to integrate ARIA into
HTML4/XHTML1.0; proposal is "aria-" and property name to be included in 1999
XML namespace which HTML WG thinks it owns
... didn't like idea of role just for accessibility; wanted to call role
accessibility; nixed -- other needs for roles; don't like that it is a qname
in serializatino
SP: HTML serialization?
RS: yes, but calling it XHTML serialization
SP: in HTML serialization no concept of namespaces which causes big trouble
RS: proposal now is all ARIA values for role would be used without namespace qualifier
threads logged at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration
<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0106/aria-proposal.html
SP: sent to www-archive so has w3.org URL
SM: to sum up, they are requesting that some things be addded to collection of role values in XML namespace
RS: want ARIA states and properties stated as
"aria-[rolename]
... ARIA properties provide additional accessiblility info to generic
elements that then are mapped to accessiblity API; HTML5 glued "required"
property onto form elements; which would take precedence -- HTML property or
ARIA property; aria- supposed to prevent collisions
SP: colon in namespaces chosen for reason; allowable character for attributes; for HTML processing why not demand that a fixed prefix (aaa: or aria:) as prefix of attribute always; colon a name character, so get namespaces in XHTML version, and non-namespaced in HTML version
RS: trying to avoid namespaces altogether, i
think; don't look at as extensible XML based doc, but simply a serialization
of what can be done in HTML without extensibility
... aria- proposal from Ian Hickson
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration#head-f5efefdff051b98d83272dfefba4021c90f26dc1
RS: ARIA role has a number of roles for widgets, structural elements, etc.
SM: if they want to introduce new attributes, that's fine with us -- hyphen about names, not values; context of attribute values, if requesting that bunch of values to added to XHTML values, valid request as long as don't conflict
SP: they want to put into XML namespace so don't have to deal with namespaces in role attribute
RS: right -- wai-role:CURIE with type following
it
... grid -- want role=grid
SP: trying to fight extensibility via
namespaces
... HTML WG chartered to do serialization which must have namespaces;
contrary to what XHTML2 chartered to do
SM: did for Ruby, did for Forms
SP: true
RS: if a colon in HTML world for role value, treated as one string instead of qname; pointed out problem: have qnames -- what about use of SVG to create flow charts? not thinking ahead long-term, minunderstanding of real issues
SP: one of the first places where extensibility comes in, is roles; extensibility may never happen if don't use qnames -- everything will end up in HTML namespace
SM: trying to ensure extensibility mechanism built-into language; role needs to be used
SP: same complaints coming from them about RDFa
SM: don't have leg to stand on
RS: don't have issue asking for role values to become part of namespace; shooting self in foot if go down non-extensible route
SS: there is actual money value in efficiency
boost by using XML and namespacing; tag soup devalues and compromises
accessibility
... if use XML database, doesn't matter what app grammar you're using -- have
to say this is HTML and have to treat like this and that is XML so treat like
that, it all breaks down; flow chart example of RS interesting - that's where
things are going
RS: their bet is on XBL
... XBL not going to be adopted by industry leaders
SP: mark has implemented XBL on top of IE
RS: not that can't be done, but will it?
GJR: XBL draft dangersously underspecified
SP: transition call for modularization 1.1 --
shane and roland, can you be on call?
... will contact shane and roland about date and time for call
... get last call of role up -- any other issues?
non-logged
RS: how many at F2F
SP: StevenP, Roland, RichS...
GJR: will be there unless joint task force meeting
SS: will be there whole week
GJR: as will i
<Schnitz> oedipus: maybe :-)
<Schnitz> thanks
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/ShaneH/ShaneM/ Succeeded: s/should/SHOULD/ Succeeded: s/exentsibility/extensibility/ Succeeded: s/they're/their/ Found Scribe: oedipus Inferring ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, Schnitz, Roland, Steven, Rich, yamx, ShaneM Present: Gregory_Rosmaita Schnitz Roland Steven Rich yamx ShaneM Regrets: Alessio MarkB Tina Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0015 Got date from IRC log name: 3 Oct 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/03-xhtml-minutes.html People with action items: about convey media reply steven type WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]