W3C

HTML WG Teleconference

16 Aug 2007

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Lachy, DanC, Rob_Burns, Gregory_Rosmaita, Marcin_Hanclik, Dave_Singer, ChrisW, hsivonen
Regrets
Anne_vK, Ian_H.
Chair
DanC
Scribe
Lachy

Contents


Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z

<michael> hello all

<hsivonen> hmm. Skype isn't working :-(

<DanC> scribe: Lachy

<mausonio> hi all

next meeting, regular meeting times

DanC: My thought is to have 2 separate times. One chaired by me, other by Chris

Chris: I think bi-weekly meetings would be good

DanC: that's probably good enough

<dsinger> 2300Z is +6 from now...

<DanC> times in Sydney, Los Angeles

[discussion of new time for meeting]

<DanC> "Thursday, August 30, 2007 at 14:00:00 Thu 7:00 AM * Midnight Thu-Fri"

<DanC> my favorite: "Thursday, August 30, 2007 at 23:00:00Z Thu 4:00 PM * Fri 9:00 AM"

<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Pacific.

<oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 08:00:00 Friday in Asia/Tokyo

<oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 09:00:00 Friday in Australia/Melbourne

<hsivonen> this is hsivonen

<Lachy_> what's the difference between Pacific and Boston time zones?

<Chris> 3 hours.

<Chris> PST = UTC/GMT -7/8

<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Los Angeles

<oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 04:30:00 Friday in Asia/Calcutta

RESOLUTION: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Los Angeles

<scribe> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to reserve a bridge for this alternating schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

<hsivonen> advance regrets for Aug 30th

toward release of Design Principles

<DanC> ACTION: [DONE] Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principles [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

<DanC> # HTML Design Principles Review Maciej Stachowiak (Thursday, 16 August)

DanC: Maciej seems to want to start a review of the design principles, I want to ship the draft

<DanC> # Re: Support for Design Principles (was: Design Principles survey delayed) Geoffrey Sneddon (Thursday, 16 August)

<oedipus> one concern is that rearranging the Proposed Design Principles will break a lot of link on the wiki, so we should procede with caution

GR: If we accept mjs suggestion, the problem is that the references to the old proposals will be broken
... MoinMoin doesn't have ability to move wiki pages

DanC: I was going to do a survey about the design principles
... Mjs finally sent a wrap up, which seems to say "let's start reviewing" - that's not what I expected
... I was hoping we were 2/3 of the way through review process
... Chris, have you read the summary from gsnedders?

<DanC> summary from Sneddon

Chris: I have not

DanC: I was hoping to publish the document in a week

Chris: mjs did not have a time frame for when the clean up would be done
... I think we need a short time frame
... we should have it out for reveiw within a week, then clean up and then agree within 2 weeks
... we should respond to mjs and say we like the plan, we want to make sure we're at step 5 by next week.

DanC: let's review gsnedders message

<DanC> (I'm also opening http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples in another window, last edited 2007-08-16 12:26:51)

RB: I thought the support existing content principle was fairly solid

DanC: I wonder what gsnedders means by how it's being implemented in "I've not to my knowledge heard anything against this, though there have been people questioning how it has been implemented."

<oedipus> the last comment on implmentation and HTML5 test suites for degrading gracefully was GJR

<oedipus> need practical not theoretical data

RB: I'm not sure his changes to the Wheel principle made too much difference, I don't have any problems with it myself

<gsnedders> It may well be just how some things in the spec degrade.

<mjs> hi everyone

DanC: is the survey a cost effective way to proceed?

<gsnedders> I cannot find anything more specific than that, so I'm assuming that's all I meant.

Chris: how long to put it together?
... [need to decide which principles are stable and finsish the survey with DanC]

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

<gsnedders> I expect even from survey the majority would have consensus

<oedipus> +1 from GJR to DanC & ChrisW's action item

<DanC> [later...] bringing up http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/

<DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples?action=recall&rev=89

<mjs> fwiw I don't think a survey will be very helpful to improving the document, but I'll look over the results if there is one

<DanC> ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next two weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

Detailed Spec Reviews

DanC: What hasn't been done in the spec reviews? [checks wiki, list archive...]

Marcin: I have reviewed the media elements

<DanC> Detailed review of 3.14.9. Media elements / Mihai Sucan

<DanC> review from marcin

<DanC> no reviews for Communications, no volunteers. hmm

ChrisW: I'll make sure Communications gets covered

<dsinger> apple has some comments of detail on the video/audio tags coming in soon...

<oedipus> KarlD on SMIL3

<oedipus> Dave Singer on SMIL3

<dsinger> we considered the SMIL media tags when doing the proposal, obviously, but the needs are different in SMIL and HTML

DanC: I want to figure out when to publish
... if we said something like 10 times as many yes, as no votes, that would be compelling

Chris: it would depend on the the type of formal objections
... I expect there will be real objections

<Lachy_> I expect them too!

DanC: we have to publish, we don't necessarily need 100% concensus

<gsnedders> As I said in my email, I concluded that I doubt we'll ever have consensus, but rather almost always dissent

table headers

DanC: we owe a response to ..

<DanC> message from WAI PF WG of 6 Jun on table headers

<DanC> DanC: I think it makes some good points, e.g. "We don't build fire stairs just enough to evacuate 80% of the occupants."

DanC: Hixie said he intends to get to this in due course, but I would like to have a schedule

hsivonen: Hixie has implemented the implicit association algorithm, to anylise it's effectiveness

<oedipus> WAI PF Summary of goals for HTML5

hsivonen: the headers issue is a late comer in the first-come-first-serve queue, but he added a note to the draft about it being an open issue

<oedipus> quote To summarize, our goals for HTML 5 are as follow: (1) Support for issues highlighted in Table: 1 of the ARIA Roadmap; (2) Backward compatability to ARIA, including the role attribute. (3) Allow for full interoperability with assistive technologies; (4) A preference for access to accessibility information via the DOM; (5) reduced efforts by authors to support assistive technologies (6) Support for the access element or a version of it. (7) Maintain equ

<oedipus> discussed in http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration

DanC: any volunteers to take an action this week? no? OK, we'll let it percolate.

Name for XHTML serialization

DanC: XHTML2 WG want us to change our name from XHTML, I haven't seen any justifaction

<Lachy_> no justification

<Lachy_> We should both just use the name XHTML, changing the name is counter productive

<DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

hsivonen: The media type and namespace still need to contain "xhtml", so the name should also be XHTML

DanC: yes, the namespace name is a bigger issue.

<oedipus> +1 on namespaces more important issue to address

Forms Taskforce

<DanC> DanC: in consideration of the differences in sizes of the Working Groups, the Forms WG chairs and HTML WG chairs agree that each WG should be represented by 3 people.

<DanC> tasks survey results, remixed

<DanC> 14 volunteers currently

LH: I think it should include people who are very familiar with WF2
... I like Hixie, Anne, Mjs, Henri, Matthew Raymond

<oedipus> GJR: john boyer may be one of the 3 from the Forms side

<oedipus> GJR: he may not be on the list, but what about asking TV Raman?

<oedipus> GJR: Raman has experience from both sides

DanC: what about Gregory,
... Anne and Mjs

GR: I think TV Raman would be an ideal person

<scribe> ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

<hsivonen> Sander Tekelenburg is the active one

DanC: I suppose we could rotate task force members

<DanC> DanC: I'll fill in 2 (Anne, Maciej) and wait on the 3rd

face-to-face meeting 8-9 November

DanC: we're scheduled to meet in a room that holds 50

<DanC> "President's D 66 HTML 50 " -- http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/overview.html

DanC: Hixie suggested an unconference style agenda
... that's easier for me, in some ways...

ChrisW: I would be comfortable with that for a while, but not the whole time

Announcement mailing list, RSS feeds

DanC: I set up the announcements list, but I still want to speak with chaals about how to operate the -announcements mailing list

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/

<DanC> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

DanC: MikeSmith was going to write a summary of the CVS commit changes. Has that happened?

Chris: I haven't seen it.

<DanC> ACTION: [CONTINUES] MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]

DanC: Volunteers are welcome for writing up a summary of changes

Wiki Migration

<DanC> Re: [admin] W3C Wiki migration

DanC: I expect to migrate to MediaWiki, and I'm inclined to have a separate HTMLWG wiki

Chris: that seems like a good idea

<Lachy_> why don't we just start using the WHATWG wiki?

<DanC> ADJOURN.

<dsinger> cheers\

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to reserve a bridge for this alternating schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
 
[DONE] ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principles [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
 
[DROPPED] ACTION: Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next two weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2007/08/17 21:47:40 $