SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF -- 26 Jul 2005

Action Review

ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements [CONTINUES]

Ben: I expect to create a Web page

Mark: could use the Wiki for issue tracking

Ralph: or w3c wiki

ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [CONTINUES]

Ben: doing a Creative Commons example

Steven: how about an RSS example?

ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs / w.r.t. RDF Schema [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

-> Re: the / vs # issue [DanBri 2005-07-19]

ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper [DONE]

Jeremy: it was a presentation, not a paper.

[see also: post-meeting comments]

Ralph: I believe this was the presentation that other WG members thought could be the basis for a document

ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki [DONE]

-> RDF/A examples wiki

ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [CONTINUES]

ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html

Mark: I think the Joe Lambda example will highlight some of the bnode issues
... other examples I've been able to restructure so they don't really need named bnodes

ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD of Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02] [CONTINUES]

RDF/A Examples

<benadida> http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfA

Mark: the examples change almost by the hour
... initially I used a verbose XHTML2 style
... the rules now listed are the ones that are feeling firm to me
... we may have to treat meta and link as completely special; this is different from previous specifications
... previously meta was something like span
... now it seems only meta should attach properties to the parent
... my agenda is to be able to carry metadata but also use the data in-line
... e.g. a browser that pops-up metadata when you mouse-over a link
... in the ordinary HTML sense, meta was a way to attach metadata to a document. In this new framework meta is a way to attach metadata to any node
... section id='person' highlights the inheritance questions

<Steven> http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleFoaF

Mark: in some cases <h1 property='x'> should apply to the h1 but in other cases the property should be applied to the parent
... at the moment I don't see an easy way to specify which one is intended

<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to ask about whether this loses design goal of rdf/a being reusable and to ask about #person as RDF or HTML mimetype and to say how the first rdf/a draft addressed

Jeremy: in the October RDF/A draft this issue of deciding the subject was addressed
... [the October words were] not unintuitive from an RDF/XML perspective
... a carefully selected subset of the October rules could make sense
... the subject rule by itself isn't too much

Mark: feel free to add comments to the wiki

Jeremy: the example seems to want to read #person to be an RDF mime type
... rather than as a fragid of an HTML document
... I'm comfortable with some ambiguity here
... there's a section in RDF Concepts that discusses frag ids and RDF

Mark: I have generally thought they were two different worlds
... one could say that only when you view this document with "RDF glasses" do you see the RDF nodes

ACTION: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10]

Ben: in the bottom example, you want the rdf:type property to apply to <section id="person">, right?
... even though there is no about attribute

Mark: yes

Ben: so the meta applies to the named node rather than to the document, even though there is no about attribute

Mark: yes, the meta applies to the section because the section has an id
... I would prefer that meta always applies to the parent
... in this example I'm only going halfway; meta applies to section because of the id

<Zakim> Steven, you wanted to ask about @xhtml2:role (after this discussion is over)

Steven: the danger of the id solution is that id plays so many roles that you could accidentally insert an id (to be a link target) and suddenly change your RDF
... in the rdf:type example, I would have written <section role="foaf:Person">
... I see Mark doesn't use role much, whereas I use it a lot
... why this difference in approach?
... maybe role is being though of differently by each of us and we should write down what role means

Mark: I think this would be a fantastic shorthand but we haven't defined it
... the types for roles could be defined in the RDF schema (e.g. using OWL)
... this sort of abbreviation would be nice for the HTML community

Jeremy: with RDF Schema it is very easy to say xhtml:role and rdf:type have the same property extension; i.e. are effectively equivalent
... this is not allowed in OWL-lite or OWL-DL
... in OWL-full you can say that role=Person is equivalent to foaf:Person without making them synonyms

Mark: I was thinking that, for example, anything with role=x would also have rdf:type=x

Jeremy: yes, you can say this in OWL-Full
... but probably the RDF Schema version of this is good enough

Mark: this would be very nice for super browsers; e.g. role=toolbar pulls in a lot of properties of toolbars

Jeremy: HP would likely be pleased to say that role is a subProperty of type

<jjc> Proposed triple: xhtml:role rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:type .

Mark: might I put role=Person on the root element, as I'm saying the whole thing is the Person
... regarding Steven's id question, I agree with the concern and that's why I'm leaning toward making link and meta always apply to the parent regardless of presence of id attribute
... the presence of id='person' simply allows you to refer to that anonymous node
... the only role of id would be to name things; it doesn't change the inheritance rules
... but this affects my h1 example

Ben: I will add a Creative Commons example to the Wiki

Steven: I am working on the W3C Talks example, then will look at RSS example

Mark: note the title property="dc:title" -- it may be useful to think of some default settings
... e.g. the XHTML2 schema could give this property as a default attribute for title

Ralph: this would require GRDDL to be more Schema-aware
... perhaps that's a good thing

Next Meeting

next meeting: 2 August

[adjourned]

SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF

26 Jul 2005

Attendees

Contents

Action Review

RDF/A Examples

Next Meeting

Summary of Action Items