IRC log of swbp on 2005-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:48 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc

13:57:58 [Ralph]

Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF

13:58:04 [Ralph]

Chair: Ben

13:58:33 [Ralph]

Previous: 2005-07-19 http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html

13:59:09 [dbooth3]

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14:00:19 [Steven]

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14:00:35 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:00:41 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:00:45 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

14:00:47 [Zakim]

+Steven

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14:01:07 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:01:37 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:01:43 [Zakim]

+??P12

14:01:53 [Steven]

zakim, ? is MarkB

14:01:53 [Zakim]

+MarkB; got it

14:04:29 [Steven]

http://www.sdexpo.com/

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14:07:26 [Ralph]

Topic: Action Review

14:07:29 [Ralph]

http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#ActionSummary

14:07:46 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements

14:07:53 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:07:56 [Steven]

zakim, mute me

14:07:56 [Zakim]

Steven should now be muted

14:08:02 [Ralph]

Ben: I expect to create a Web page

14:08:09 [Zakim]

+??P19

14:08:20 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p19 is Jeremy

14:08:20 [Zakim]

+Jeremy; got it

14:09:14 [Ralph]

Mark: could use the Wiki for issue tracking

14:10:01 [jjc]

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14:10:13 [Ralph]

Ralph: or w3c wiki -- http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

14:10:17 [Steven]

ack me

14:10:21 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A

14:10:24 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:10:39 [Ralph]

Ben: doing a Creative Commons example

14:10:50 [Ralph]

Steven: how about an RSS example?

14:11:24 [Ralph]

ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs / w.r.t. RDF Schema

14:11:35 [Ralph]

-- done

14:12:21 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0018.html Re: the / vs # issue [DanBri 2005-07-19]

14:12:34 [Ralph]

ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper

14:13:04 [Ralph]

Jeremy: though I'd sent the link; will resend

14:13:16 [Ralph]

... it was a presentation, not a paper

14:13:54 [Ralph]

Ralph: I believe this was the presentation that other WG members thought could be the basis for a document

14:14:02 [Ralph]

ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki

14:14:07 [Ralph]

-- done; link now posted

14:14:14 [Ralph]

ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A

14:14:16 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:14:36 [Ralph]

ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html

14:14:38 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:15:19 [Ralph]

Mark: I think the Joe Lambda example will highlight some of the bnode issues

14:15:35 [Ralph]

... other examples I've been able to restructure so they don't really need named bnodes

14:15:40 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

14:15:44 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:16:10 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD of Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

14:16:14 [Ralph]

-- continues

14:17:09 [jjc]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/

14:17:12 [Ralph]

Topic: RDF/A Examples

14:17:13 [jjc]

wrong

14:17:24 [jjc]

http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/public/carroll-rdf-html.pdf

14:17:42 [jjc]

presentation from tokyo

14:18:23 [Ralph]

Jeremy's action to post link to WWW2005 presentation now complete

14:18:34 [benadida]

http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfA

14:18:38 [Ralph]

(i.e. action#4)

14:19:08 [Ralph]

Mark: the examples change almost by the hour

14:19:20 [Ralph]

... initially I used a verbose XHTML2 style

14:20:29 [Ralph]

... the rules now listed are the ones that are feeling firm to me

14:21:12 [Ralph]

... we may have to treat meta and link as completely special; this is different from previous specifications

14:21:36 [Ralph]

... previously meta was something like span

14:22:28 [jjc]

q+ to ask about whether this loses design goal of rdf/a being reusable

14:22:30 [Ralph]

... now it seems only meta should attach properties to the parent

14:23:06 [Ralph]

... my agenda is to be able to carry metadata but also use the data in-line

14:23:22 [Ralph]

... e.g. a browser that pops-up metadata when you mouse-over a link

14:24:11 [Ralph]

... in the ordinary HTML sense, meta was a way to attach metadata to a document. In this new framework meta is a way to attach metadata to any node

14:24:38 [Ralph]

... section id='person' highlights the inheritance questions

14:25:50 [Steven]

http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleFoaF

14:28:59 [jjc]

q+ to ask about #person as RDF or HTML mimetype

14:29:20 [Ralph]

Mark: in some cases <h1 property='x'> should apply to the h1 but in other cases the property should be applied to the parent

14:29:39 [Ralph]

... at the moment I don't see an easy way to specify which one is intended

14:30:20 [jjc]

q+ to say how the first rdf/a draft addressed this issue of which subject to use

14:30:33 [Zakim]

jjc, you wanted to ask about whether this loses design goal of rdf/a being reusable and to ask about #person as RDF or HTML mimetype and to say how the first rdf/a draft addressed

14:30:37 [Zakim]

... this issue of which subject to use

14:30:51 [Ralph]

Jeremy: in the October RDF/A draft this issue of deciding the subject was addressed

14:31:43 [Ralph]

... [the October words were] not unintuitive from an RDF/XML perspective

14:31:57 [Ralph]

... a carefully selected subset of the October rules could make sense

14:32:08 [Ralph]

... the subject rule by itself isn't too much

14:32:31 [jjc]

q+ to ask about whether this loses design goal of rdf/a being reusable

14:32:33 [jjc]

q+ to ask about #person as RDF or HTML mimetype

14:32:41 [benadida]

q+ to ask a detail about the section element

14:32:58 [Ralph]

Mark: feel free to add comments to the wiki

14:33:23 [Zakim]

jjc, you wanted to ask about whether this loses design goal of rdf/a being reusable and to ask about #person as RDF or HTML mimetype

14:34:06 [Ralph]

Jeremy: the example seems to want to read #person to be an RDF mime type

14:34:25 [Ralph]

... rather than as a fragid of an HTML document

14:34:36 [Ralph]

... I'm comfortable with some ambiguity here

14:35:26 [Ralph]

... there's a section in RDF Concepts that discusses frag ids and RDF

14:35:39 [Ralph]

Mark: I have generally thought they were two different worlds

14:36:22 [Ralph]

... one could say that only when you view this document with "RDF glasses" do you see the RDF nodes

14:37:20 [jjc]

action: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments

14:38:12 [Steven]

q+ to ask about @xhtml2:role (after this discussion is over)

14:40:41 [Zakim]

benadida, you wanted to ask a detail about the section element

14:41:24 [Ralph]

Ben: in the bottom example, you want the rdf:type property to apply to <section id="person">, right?

14:41:30 [Ralph]

... even though there is no about attribute

14:41:32 [Ralph]

Mark: yes

14:42:12 [Ralph]

Ben: so the meta applies to the named node rather than to the document, even though there is no about attribute

14:42:24 [Ralph]

Mark: yes, the meta applies to the section because the section has an id

14:43:07 [Ralph]

... I would prefer that meta always applies to the parent

14:44:01 [Ralph]

... in this example I'm only going halfway; meta applies to section because of the id

14:44:38 [Zakim]

Steven, you wanted to ask about @xhtml2:role (after this discussion is over)

14:45:09 [Ralph]

Steven: the danger of the id solution is that id plays so many roles that you could accidentally insert an id (to be a link target) and suddenly change your RDF

14:45:47 [Ralph]

... in the rdf:type example, I would have written <section role="foaf:Person">

14:45:58 [Ralph]

... I see Mark doesn't use role much, whereas I use it a lot

14:46:03 [Ralph]

... why this difference in approach?

14:46:52 [Ralph]

... maybe role is being though of differently by each of us and we should write down what role means

14:47:07 [Ralph]

Mark: I think this would be a fantastic shorthand but we haven't defined it

14:47:37 [Ralph]

... the types for roles could be defined in the RDF schema (e.g. using OWL)

14:47:55 [Ralph]

... this sort of abbreviation would be nice for the HTML community

14:48:13 [jjc]

q+ to comment on role

14:48:23 [Zakim]

jjc, you wanted to comment on role

14:48:45 [Ralph]

Jeremy: with RDF Schema it is very easy to say xhtml:role and rdf:type have the same property extension; i.e. are effectively equivalent

14:48:54 [Ralph]

... this is not allowed in OWL-lite or OWL-DL

14:49:42 [Ralph]

... in OWL-full you can say that role=Person is equivalent to foaf:Person without making them synonyms

14:50:18 [Ralph]

Mark: I was thinking that, for example, anything with role=x would also have rdf:type=x

14:50:29 [Ralph]

Jeremy: yes, you can say this in OWL-Full

14:50:47 [Ralph]

... but probably the RDF Schema version of this is good enough

14:51:23 [Ralph]

Mark: this would be very nice for super browsers; e.g. role=toolbar pulls in a lot of properties of toolbars

14:51:39 [Ralph]

Jeremy: HP would likely be pleased to say that role is a subProperty of type

14:52:21 [jjc]

Proposed triples: xhtml:role rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:type .

14:52:30 [jjc]

Proposed triples: xhtml:role rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:type .

14:52:34 [jjc]

Proposed triple: xhtml:role rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:type .

14:52:44 [jjc]

(sorry for saying that three times)

14:53:06 [Ralph]

Mark: might I put role=Person on the root element, as I'm saying the whole thing is the Person

14:54:13 [Ralph]

... regarding Steven's id question, I agree with the concern and that's why I'm leaning toward making link and meta always apply to the parent regardless of presence of id attribute

14:54:27 [Ralph]

... the presence of id='person' simply allows you to refer to that anonymous node

14:54:52 [Ralph]

... the only role of id is to name things; it doesn't change the inheritance rules

14:55:03 [Ralph]

s/is/would be/

14:55:39 [Ralph]

... but this affects my h1 example

14:58:24 [Ralph]

Ben: I will add a Creative Commons example to the Wiki

14:58:38 [Ralph]

Steven: I am working on the W3C Talks example, then will look at RSS example

14:58:55 [Ralph]

next meeting: 2 August

14:59:39 [Ralph]

Mark: note the title property="dc:title" -- it may be useful to think of some default settings

15:00:15 [Ralph]

... e.g. the XHTML2 schema could give this property as a default attribute for title

15:01:39 [Ralph]

Ralph: this would require GRDDL to be more Schema-aware

15:01:44 [Ralph]

... perhaps that's a good thing

15:02:15 [Ralph]

[adjourned]

15:02:16 [Zakim]

-Jeremy

15:02:17 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:02:17 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:02:19 [Zakim]

-MarkB

15:02:20 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:02:22 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

15:02:23 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida, MarkB, Jeremy

15:02:36 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:02:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html Ralph

15:02:41 [dbooth2]

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15:02:45 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make minutes world

15:02:45 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make minutes world', Ralph. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:02:50 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make log world

15:03:06 [Ralph]

zakim, bye

15:03:06 [Zakim]

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15:07:37 [benadida]

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17:49:59 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

I see 10 open action items:

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames, reification, and custom attributes and elements [1]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-07-46

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [2]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-10-21

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs / w.r.t. RDF Schema [3]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-11-24

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper [4]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-12-34

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki [5]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-14-02

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [6]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-14-14

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html [7]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-14-36

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [8]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-15-40

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD of Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02] [9]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-16-10

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments [10]

17:49:59 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc#T14-37-20