IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-10-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:02:33 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:02:37 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Wendy, Roberto_Scano (muted), Bengt_Farre, Ben_Caldwell, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink, Michael_Cooper, JasonWhite, Matt, David_MacDonald
20:03:13 [Zakim]: +??P19
20:03:18 [rscano]: late regrets also from Roberto Castaldo
20:03:22 [wendy]: regrets: Gregg, Andi, Loretta
20:03:30 [wendy]: zakim, ??P19 is Cynthia_Shelly
20:03:30 [Zakim]: +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
20:03:30 [rscano]: he phone me
20:04:28 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/agenda-issues.html
20:04:46 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=357
20:05:04 [wendy]: other specs do it. we should do it, too.
20:05:16 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=358
20:05:26 [Zakim]: +John_Slatin
20:05:46 [Zakim]: + +1.703.225.aaaa
20:06:33 [wendy]: zakim, +1.703.225.aaaa is Sailesh_Panchang
20:06:34 [Zakim]: +Sailesh_Panchang; got it
20:06:41 [Zakim]: +Avi_Arditti
20:06:55 [wendy]: 358: yes, get rid of the [was *.*] in checkpoint text.
20:08:19 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=358
20:08:24 [Zakim]: +Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:08:39 [wendy]: for those people who are coming to WCAG 2.0 and not familiar with 1.0 don't need to mention.
20:08:45 [wendy]: will need migration support from 1.0 to 2.0.
20:09:11 [wendy]: diff between mentioning it and relying on it for understanding.
20:09:29 [wendy]: ok to mention it, as long as understanding 2.0 doesn't rely on understanding 1.0.
20:09:37 [Yvette]: zakim, mute me
20:09:37 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:11:21 [wendy]: action john and katie: in rewrite, draft proposal that decreases reliance on wcag 1.0 in priorities and abstract.
20:11:31 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=362
20:12:35 [wendy]: Who benefits? less passive
20:12:53 [wendy]: action: john will play around w/rewrite
20:12:58 [wendy]: most people fine either way
20:13:17 [wendy]: action: john and katie: in rewrite, draft proposal that decreases reliance on wcag 1.0 in priorities and abstract.
20:13:45 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=378
20:16:59 [Yvette]: zakim, unmute me
20:16:59 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:17:22 [wendy]: Ensure that interface created by content is operable by any user
20:17:48 [wendy]: ensure that the interface provided by the content is operably by any user
20:18:04 [wendy]: it is the controls in the content not the content itself
20:19:05 [sh1mmer]: sh1mmer has joined #wai-wcag
20:19:35 [wendy]: action: john and katie, reword guideline 2 taking this discussion into account.
20:19:45 [sh1mmer]: sorry i am late. i confused the times (again)
20:20:17 [Zakim]: +??P0
20:20:27 [wendy]: zakim, ??P0 is Tom_Croucher
20:20:27 [Zakim]: +Tom_Croucher; got it
20:20:36 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=392
20:20:37 [sh1mmer]: zakim, I am Tom_Croucher
20:20:37 [Zakim]: ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
20:20:44 [rscano]: hitom
20:21:08 [sh1mmer]: hi roberto
20:22:06 [wendy]: currenlty says, "http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#audience
20:22:33 [wendy]: what do we want to list? are there specific use cases to incorporate? this related to use cases and 2nd agenda item for today.
20:22:45 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=393
20:22:53 [Zakim]: + +1.510.306.aabb
20:23:06 [wendy]: zakim, +1.510 is Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:23:06 [Zakim]: +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
20:26:59 [wendy]: zakim, who's talking?
20:27:09 [Zakim]: wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_MacDonald (51%), John_Slatin (79%), Avi_Arditti (9%)
20:27:41 [wendy]: if currently meet WCAG 1.0 A, AA, AAA what need to do in WCAG 2.0?
20:28:14 [sh1mmer]: q+
20:28:33 [wendy]: q+ to say, "report from ATAG mtg"
20:28:35 [wendy]: ack Tom
20:30:10 [Zakim]: +??P2
20:30:50 [wendy]: zakim, ??P2 is Mike_Barta
20:30:50 [Zakim]: +Mike_Barta; got it
20:31:11 [wendy]: ack wendy
20:31:11 [Zakim]: wendy, you wanted to say, "report from ATAG mtg"
20:34:49 [wendy]: atag could create their own profile of wcag 2.0 for their level 2
20:35:58 [wendy]: action: wendy draft something about migration from 1.0 to 2.0.
20:37:44 [sh1mmer]: ack Cynthia
20:38:08 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=398
20:38:57 [wendy]: no objection if can find a graphic artist to make the icons.
20:39:16 [rscano]: I can ask support to Kynn :)
20:39:21 [wendy]: tom - i can turn it into the graphic if someone can come up with the ideas for image.
20:39:26 [rscano]: he is IWA/HWG Member ;-)
20:39:44 [wendy]: yvette made tetrahedron of 4 principles.
20:40:04 [wendy]: each side has design principle
20:41:49 [wendy]: action: kerstin do research about iconic representaiton of the 4 design principles.
20:42:08 [wendy]: action: tom - if someone comes up with ideas for icons, conver to icons.
20:42:08 [Yvette]: http://www.webeone.org/wcagtet.htm
20:42:21 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=399
20:42:45 [rscano]: i've got it created here in my desk :)
20:43:47 [silvia]: very nice!
20:44:15 [sh1mmer]: Yvette I think i might have to print one out to keep on my desk now :)
20:44:20 [Yvette]: :-)
20:45:39 [wendy]: i've got william's verison on my desk. i'll have to print this new one out as a companion. :)
20:46:01 [Yvette]: I freely donate all copyrights to the WG ;-)
20:46:41 [wendy]: john willing to work with that example.
20:47:05 [wendy]: action: John in rewrite replace "cannot see" with "cannot see well" (as an example)
20:47:30 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=388
20:49:03 [wendy]: what's core in 2.0 should map to p1 in wcag 1.0
20:49:45 [rscano]: i hope core should map to p2
20:50:47 [wendy]: shift from some things more important for accessibility
20:52:01 [wendy]: core/extended not explained in wcag 2.0.
20:52:41 [sh1mmer]: q+
20:53:05 [wendy]: ack Tom
20:54:50 [wendy]: in response to points about conformance scheme, gregg explained basis of core/extended. we should write that up and put into conformance section.
20:55:03 [wendy]: not enough to have in conformance, also highlight in mapping/migration info.
20:55:32 [wendy]: what is important for accessibility is from the user's perspective.
20:55:39 [wendy]: not developer's.
20:55:48 [wendy]: 2 issues:
20:56:00 [wendy]: 1. need clear explanation for current distinction between core and extended.
20:56:11 [wendy]: 2. then can discuss if that is the write basis or not
20:57:14 [wendy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0594.html
20:57:16 [wendy]: ack David
20:57:49 [wendy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0187.html
20:58:18 [wendy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0595.html
20:58:58 [wendy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0096.html
20:59:32 [sh1mmer]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0594.html
21:00:09 [wendy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0208.html
21:00:31 [Yvette]: Does Dialpad have a record function? :-)
21:01:12 [wendy]: critique that said every success criteria could make critical diff between accessibility and not for some group so no longer any basiss for saying some checkpoints more important for accessibility than otheres, unless say some groups more important than others.
21:01:26 [wendy]: did not want to do. thus, followed that we need diff basis to categorize checkpoitns and success criteria.
21:01:39 [wendy]: thus reorg based on specific guidelines/checkpoints required modifications to default presentation or not.
21:01:48 [wendy]: default presentation: concern about freedom of expression issues.
21:01:59 [wendy]: not sure if stand up to constitutional rights in some countries.
21:03:38 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
21:04:58 [wendy]: action: david write proposal for core/extended paragraph for conformance section based on list of relevant emails and jason's summary from today
21:05:29 [Yvette]: q+ to say "Is freedom of speech more important than the right to access information?"
21:05:45 [wendy]: was the freedom of expression issues discussed with a lawyer? because don't think freedom of expression (for architects) impacts ramps in buildings.
21:06:02 [wendy]: action: john talk with lawyer about freedom of expression issues.
21:06:20 [rscano]: remember that every countries has local laws....
21:06:25 [wendy]: ack yvette
21:06:25 [Zakim]: Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Is freedom of speech more important than the right to access information?"
21:06:37 [wendy]: is freedom of speech more important than the right to access information?
21:06:38 [sh1mmer]: q+
21:06:42 [wendy]: in europe, this it is the other way around.
21:06:43 [wendy]: ack tom
21:07:43 [wendy]: ack matt
21:08:20 [wendy]: whether in every jurisdiction there is a freedom of expression law that trumps accessibility, if tell people "you can't write liks this" they will not follow our recommendations.
21:08:25 [wendy]: we can't tell them how to communicate.
21:08:29 [wendy]: ack cynthia
21:08:52 [wendy]: a definition of art is not testable. there are many things that are not art that can not be rewritten.
21:08:58 [wendy]: e.g., IEEE spec
21:09:02 [rscano]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0521.html (i remember this for European Laws)
21:09:04 [wendy]: e.g., Shakespeare
21:09:58 [wendy]: ack Avi
21:11:39 [rscano]: i can ask to italian lawyers about...
21:11:46 [rscano]: (for our country)
21:11:54 [Yvette]: I can ask a Dutch lawyer for the Netherlands
21:12:56 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=400
21:13:43 [wendy]: what is meant by perceivable
21:13:50 [rscano]: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/perceivable
21:13:53 [wendy]: john came up w/good definition on the mailing list
21:14:40 [Yvette]: Dictionary.com: To become aware of directly through any of the senses, especially sight or hearing
21:14:56 [wendy]: another issue: do we want intro paragraphs to each guideline?
21:15:31 [wendy]: there are similar questions on other guidelines. thus, good idea to write intro for each guideline.
21:15:41 [wendy]: or if they end up being called principles, then explain in intro.
21:15:43 [rscano]: good idea
21:17:29 [Yvette]: q+ to say "that depends on Javascript availability"
21:17:38 [wendy]: i need to answer the door. brb
21:18:19 [wendy]: back
21:18:26 [sh1mmer]: zakim, who is speaking
21:18:26 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is speaking', sh1mmer
21:18:34 [Yvette]: q-
21:19:05 [wendy]: action: ben write intros for each guideline
21:20:24 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=432
21:20:39 [wendy]: we've been trying to address for at least 3 years.
21:21:45 [wendy]: continuation of discussion of write clearly checkpoint is most appropriate way to deal with this.
21:22:14 [wendy]: related to previous core/extended issue.
21:22:37 [wendy]: under current scheme, don't see how fit into core
21:23:34 [wendy]: perhaps if core/extended better explained, this issue might subside.
21:24:54 [sh1mmer]: ack cynthia
21:26:00 [wendy]: add older users to lists of people who benefit for each checkpoint?
21:26:13 [wendy]: lack of experience is not a disability.
21:26:31 [rscano]: it is technical disability
21:26:42 [wendy]: in Holland, focus on removing barriers not on disability.
21:26:46 [wendy]: this document is about disability.
21:29:38 [wendy]: action: john and katie include elderly in benefits sections
21:30:18 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: I see 11 open action items:
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john will play around w/rewrite [1]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-12-53
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john and katie: in rewrite, draft proposal that decreases reliance on wcag 1.0 in priorities and abstract. [2]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-13-17
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john and katie, reword guideline 2 taking this discussion into account. [3]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-19-35
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy draft something about migration from 1.0 to 2.0. [4]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-35-58
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: kerstin do research about iconic representaiton of the 4 design principles. [5]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-41-49
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: tom - if someone comes up with ideas for icons, conver to icons. [6]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-42-08
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: John in rewrite replace "cannot see" with "cannot see well" (as an example) [7]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T20-47-05
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: david write proposal for core/extended paragraph for conformance section based on list of relevant emails and jason's summary from today [8]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-04-58
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john talk with lawyer about freedom of expression issues. [9]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-06-02
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ben write intros for each guideline [10]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-19-05
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: john and katie include elderly in benefits sections [11]
21:30:18 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/02-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-38
21:30:26 [Zakim]: -Kerstin_Goldsmith
21:30:28 [Zakim]: -Cynthia_Shelly
21:30:29 [Zakim]: -Tom_Croucher
21:30:30 [Zakim]: -John_Slatin
21:30:31 [Zakim]: -Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:30:32 [Zakim]: -Yvette_Hoitink
21:30:33 [Zakim]: -Avi_Arditti
21:30:33 [wendy]: zakim, bye
21:30:33 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:30:34 [Zakim]: -Matt
21:30:35 [Zakim]: -Sailesh_Panchang
21:30:37 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
21:30:39 [Zakim]: -Mike_Barta
21:30:42 [rellero]: bye