IRC log of webont on 2002-12-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:01:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webont
17:01:57 [jhendler_]
zakim, this is SW_WebOnt
17:01:59 [Zakim]
ok, jhendler_
17:02:01 [guus]
zakim, ??p24 is Guus
17:02:02 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
17:02:12 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
17:02:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.282.aaaa
17:03:03 [Zakim]
+??P36
17:03:16 [guus]
zakim, ??p34 is IanH
17:03:17 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
17:03:31 [Zakim]
+??P37
17:03:39 [guus]
zakim, ??p36 is JosDR
17:03:40 [Zakim]
+JosDR; got it
17:03:54 [jjc]
jjc has joined #webont
17:03:59 [guus]
zakim, ??p37 is HermantH
17:04:00 [Zakim]
+HermantH; got it
17:04:32 [Zakim]
+Jim_Hendler
17:04:50 [jhendler_]
zakim, mute Jim_Hendler
17:04:52 [Zakim]
Jim_Hendler should now be muted
17:05:04 [jhendler_]
hi guus
17:05:34 [hth]
hth has joined #webont
17:05:36 [Zakim]
+Marwan_Sabbouh
17:05:45 [jhendler_]
zakim, unmute Jim_Hendler
17:05:47 [Zakim]
Jim_Hendler should no longer be muted
17:05:54 [jjc]
I need a couple of minutes before joining ... I'm expecting to scribe.
17:06:02 [Zakim]
+??P40
17:06:09 [jhendler_]
zakim, who is here
17:06:10 [Zakim]
jhendler_, you need to end that query with '?'
17:06:17 [jhendler_]
zakim, ??p40 is mcguinness
17:06:18 [Zakim]
+Mcguinness; got it
17:06:23 [guus]
zakim, ??p40 is DebM
17:06:24 [Zakim]
sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p40'
17:06:24 [jhendler_]
zakim, who is here?
17:06:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, +1.610.282.aaaa, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness
17:06:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see hth, jjc, JosD, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler_, guus, logger
17:06:40 [jhendler_]
zakim, aaaa is Jeff
17:06:41 [Zakim]
+Jeff; got it
17:06:50 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
17:07:28 [mdean]
mdean has joined #webont
17:07:32 [Zakim]
+PatH
17:07:35 [jhendler_]
zakim, who is here
17:07:36 [jhendler_]
zakim, who is here?
17:07:36 [Zakim]
jhendler_, you need to end that query with '?'
17:07:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, Jeff, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, PatH
17:07:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mdean, hth, jjc, JosD, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler_, guus, logger
17:07:50 [Zakim]
+??P43
17:07:57 [jjc]
Zakim, ?P43 is jjc.
17:07:58 [Zakim]
sorry, jjc, I do not recognize a party named '?P43'
17:08:06 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P43 is jjc.
17:08:07 [Zakim]
+Jjc.; got it
17:08:10 [guus]
regrets Dale, Wallace, Stanton, Stein
17:08:20 [jhendler_]
regrets COnnolly
17:08:27 [guus]
regrets Eshelman, Hori, Euzenat
17:08:36 [jhendler_]
zakim, who is here
17:08:36 [Zakim]
jhendler_, you need to end that query with '?'
17:08:38 [Zakim]
+??P44
17:08:39 [jhendler_]
zakim, who is here?
17:08:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, Jeff, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, PatH, Jjc., ??P44
17:08:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mdean, hth, jjc, JosD, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler_, guus, logger
17:08:49 [DeborahMc]
DeborahMc has joined #webont
17:09:03 [jhendler_]
zakim, ??p44 is Peter
17:09:04 [jjc]
Zakim, ??P44 is pfps.
17:09:04 [Zakim]
+Peter; got it
17:09:06 [Zakim]
sorry, jjc, I do not recognize a party named '??P44'
17:09:14 [guus]
zakim, ??p44 is PeterPS
17:09:15 [Zakim]
sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p44'
17:09:32 [jjc]
Telecon #44
17:10:46 [jjcscribe]
Zakim, who is talking?
17:10:57 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (46%), IanH (4%), JosDR (4%), Jim_Hendler (4%), Marwan_Sabbouh (14%), Jjc. (9%), Peter (52%)
17:11:17 [jjcscribe]
Zakim, who is talking?
17:11:28 [Ian]
Ian has joined #webont
17:11:29 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (75%), Marwan_Sabbouh (9%), Peter (13%)
17:11:39 [jjcscribe]
Zakim, who is talking?
17:11:50 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (24%), Marwan_Sabbouh (30%), Jjc. (5%), Peter (19%)
17:12:00 [jjcscribe]
Agenda unchanged
17:12:09 [jjcscribe]
No telecon 26th dec.
17:12:58 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute peter.
17:13:00 [Zakim]
sorry, jjcscribe, I do not see a party named 'peter.'
17:13:05 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute Peter.
17:13:07 [Zakim]
sorry, jjcscribe, I do not see a party named 'Peter.'
17:13:25 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute Peter.
17:13:26 [Zakim]
sorry, jjcscribe, I do not see a party named 'Peter.'
17:13:50 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute Peter
17:13:52 [Zakim]
Peter should now be muted
17:14:33 [Zakim]
+Peter_PS
17:14:39 [Zakim]
-Peter
17:15:08 [jjcscribe]
Manchester f2f - block booking is reserved until 6th Jan
17:15:24 [jjcscribe]
But it will help if people book earlier.
17:16:00 [jjcscribe]
Primary goal of f2f5 is to work on implementation report,
17:16:17 [jjcscribe]
can/should we invite people to help
17:17:02 [jjcscribe]
1.6 reup
17:17:23 [jjcscribe]
Jim has sent mail to everyone who has been signed back up,
17:17:41 [jjcscribe]
vote is going in our favour, we are very likely to get extension.
17:17:46 [Zakim]
+??P44
17:17:59 [jhendler_]
(but vote not yet finished - so don't quote me on this!)
17:18:08 [jhendler_]
zakim, ??p44 is jonathan
17:18:09 [Zakim]
+Jonathan; got it
17:18:20 [jjcscribe]
1.7 schedule
17:19:00 [jjcscribe]
Guus in favour of 4 or 5 week last call period.
17:19:04 [Zakim]
+NickG
17:19:27 [jjcscribe]
odds low on need for webont f2f at plenary
17:19:47 [jjcscribe]
may be meeting on semweb architecture
17:19:55 [nmg]
nmg has joined #webont
17:20:07 [jjcscribe]
zakim, who is talking?
17:20:11 [nmg]
sorry I'm late - previous meeting overran
17:20:18 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (24%), Mcguinness (54%)
17:21:26 [jjcscribe]
Deb: when is last date for input to MCr f2f?
17:21:34 [jjcscribe]
Guus: December 24th.
17:22:12 [jjcscribe]
Question: media type registration?
17:22:21 [jjcscribe]
Guus: we will come back to that.
17:23:14 [jjcscribe]
jjc: I need to update test cases, more test cases + conformance.
17:25:06 [jjcscribe]
path: do we need more porse for making model theory acceptable to non-mathematical audience
17:25:45 [jjcscribe]
rdf semantics is more discrusive but has been found difficult
17:26:09 [jjcscribe]
6 open issues left
17:27:53 [jjcscribe]
actions 2.2 first three continued
17:28:03 [jhendler_]
ACTION: Mike Smith to coordinate with Chris about write up of owl:imports issue (Chris' open issue)
17:28:20 [jjcscribe]
thanks jim
17:28:25 [jjcscribe]
(scribe asleep)
17:28:38 [jjcscribe]
(scribe was asleep)
17:28:53 [Zakim]
+??P48
17:29:14 [jhendler_]
zakim, ??p48 is peter2
17:29:15 [Zakim]
+Peter2; got it
17:29:22 [Zakim]
-Peter_PS
17:29:25 [jjcscribe]
zakim, who is talking?
17:29:35 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (21%), Jim_Hendler (5%), Mcguinness (5%), Jonathan (29%), NickG (49%), Peter2 (40%)
17:29:44 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute Peter2
17:29:45 [Zakim]
Peter2 should now be muted
17:30:30 [jjcscribe]
Deb's action held up by Mike ..., text being transferred *now*
17:30:50 [jjcscribe]
MikeDean's action held up by MikeSmith ..., text being transferred *now*
17:31:05 [jjcscribe]
all actions 2.2 continued
17:31:34 [jjcscribe]
zakim, who is talking?
17:31:45 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (38%), IanH (28%), JosDR (10%), Jonathan (43%)
17:31:55 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute Jonathan
17:31:57 [Zakim]
Jonathan should now be muted
17:32:25 [jhendler_]
zakim, unmute Peter2
17:32:26 [Zakim]
Peter2 should no longer be muted
17:32:44 [jjcscribe]
5.14
17:33:45 [jjcscribe]
should there be a URI for the ontology in abstract as opposed to any specific version
17:33:54 [jjcscribe]
still open whether normative or not
17:35:13 [jhendler_]
regret, Jerome, Masahiro, Larry
17:37:18 [jjcscribe]
path: question waht it would mean to be normative
17:37:26 [jjcscribe]
answer: that they are in the owl namespace
17:37:35 [jjcscribe]
path: still believes they should be nonnormative
17:38:37 [jhendler_]
regrets Thompson, Klein
17:38:44 [jjcscribe]
danc (msg dec/0002) doesn't see motivation for non-normative
17:39:13 [jjcscribe]
jimh: still some dicsussion about wording for incompatibility
17:39:55 [jjcscribe]
path: the informal meaning should be monotonic
17:40:33 [jjcscribe]
jeff: prefers normative
17:41:28 [jjcscribe]
jos supports nonnormative
17:41:54 [jjcscribe]
path: argues that properties and classes without meaning should be in another namespace
17:43:17 [jjcscribe]
jimh: doesn't like it being in a different namespace.
17:43:42 [jjcscribe]
mikes: explaining another namespace is more difficult than explaining how this works.
17:44:09 [Zakim]
-Jonathan
17:44:16 [jjcscribe]
jos: semantics of versioning is unclear
17:44:54 [Zakim]
+??P0
17:45:32 [jjcscribe]
jimh: versioning is needed.
17:45:51 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute jjc
17:45:53 [Zakim]
Jjc. should now be muted
17:46:09 [jjcscribe]
zakim, ??P0 is Jonathan
17:46:10 [jhendler_]
zakim, ??p0 is jonathan
17:46:11 [Zakim]
+Jonathan; got it
17:46:11 [Zakim]
sorry, jhendler_, I do not recognize a party named '??p0'
17:46:42 [guus]
zakim, who is talking?
17:46:48 [jjcscribe]
jonathan thinks if we can't give a formal semantics then we haven't met the requriements.
17:46:54 [Zakim]
guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jonathan (50%), Guus (4%), IanH (4%), JosDR (9%), Jim_Hendler (29%), Peter2 (4%)
17:47:02 [jjcscribe]
zakim, unmute jjc
17:47:04 [Zakim]
Jjc. should no longer be muted
17:47:25 [jjcscribe]
discussion of formal semantrics versus operational semantics
17:48:21 [jjcscribe]
q+
17:49:07 [jjcscribe]
zakim, who is talking?
17:49:24 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeff (86%), JosDR (4%), Peter2 (71%)
17:49:31 [jjcscribe]
zakim, mute Peter2
17:49:33 [Zakim]
Peter2 should now be muted
17:49:47 [jhendler_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Dec/0001.html
17:52:16 [jjcscribe]
jeremy spoke in favour of two namespaces - one logical, the other non-logical
17:53:05 [jjcscribe]
mikes spoke in favour of operational semantics as being intelligible
17:53:28 [jjcscribe]
path says that people will get confused if tehy think in the programming paradigm
17:54:45 [jjcscribe]
jimh proposes that the properties are explicitly labelled as human readable
17:55:24 [jjcscribe]
path we are assuming that ontoliges can be identified by urirefs.
17:56:21 [jjcscribe]
path, jos, jeremy can all live with a clear presentation of this is human readable material
17:57:31 [jjcscribe]
Moving onto dans proposal to add versionOf construct
17:58:52 [guus]
Dan's message: http://www.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Dec/0002.html
17:59:34 [jjcscribe]
Jeff and Jim versionOf will set up multiple relationships between URIrefs
18:00:08 [jjcscribe]
what is the generic ontology uri represent
18:00:14 [jjcscribe]
path: a resource
18:00:53 [guus]
Additional regrets: Klein, Thompson
18:01:32 [jjcscribe]
Is versionOf just a human readable label?
18:05:03 [Zakim]
+Peter_PS
18:05:10 [Zakim]
-Peter2
18:05:22 [Ian]
Here is some nice text from a web design firm: http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/goldenbull.html#anadrom
18:05:47 [jjcscribe]
PROPOSAL: accept Jeff's mssg dec/0001, with proviso that all properties are labelled as extralogical
18:06:41 [jjcscribe]
PROPOSAL: includes minor changes from other comments
18:07:00 [jjcscribe]
ABSTAIN: jjc, path, ian,
18:07:10 [jjcscribe]
ABSTAIN: peter, marwan
18:07:18 [jjcscribe]
ABSTAIN: deb, jos
18:07:31 [jjcscribe]
Zakim, who is on the call?
18:07:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, Jeff, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, PatH, Jjc., NickG, Jonathan, Peter_PS
18:08:50 [jjcscribe]
discussion of level of abstention
18:09:40 [jjcscribe]
CHAIR comment, more inclined to reopen this issue if necessary, or with alternative proposal
18:09:47 [jjcscribe]
RESOLVED
18:10:33 [jjcscribe]
datatypes
18:10:48 [jjcscribe]
Peter's proposal has been well-received
18:11:54 [jjcscribe]
Question about point 4
18:15:02 [jjcscribe]
jonathan raised point with tag about the lack of consistent way to define a URI for user defined datatype
18:15:45 [jjcscribe]
daml+oil define a way, but it isn't blessed
18:19:07 [jjcscribe]
issue 3 using built-ins is problematic becuase of equality, but ...
18:20:02 [jjcscribe]
jonathan xsd proposal give scomplex uri which will need to be parsed
18:20:26 [jjcscribe]
peter's proposal is just the simple part
18:22:19 [jjcscribe]
jim proposes that we accept 1,2,3 and 5 and leave part 4 open for now
18:23:36 [jjcscribe]
q+
18:26:33 [jjcscribe]
action jjc draft a message for wg consideration as msg to tag about item 4 in peter's proposal
18:28:03 [jjcscribe]
chair: can we accept 1,2,3a nd 5
18:28:13 [jjcscribe]
jjc: problems with xsd:duration equality ...
18:29:15 [Zakim]
-Marwan_Sabbouh
18:30:03 [jjcscribe]
5.13 mime type includes parameter to indicate entailment mechanism
18:30:20 [jjcscribe]
(jonathan described this)
18:32:48 [jjcscribe]
15.23 hasValue
18:32:58 [jjcscribe]
Ian can't live with it being in owl:lite
18:33:15 [jjcscribe]
DebMcG can't live with it being out
18:33:32 [jjcscribe]
May well go to vote.
18:34:19 [jjcscribe]
Conversation to mailing list ... on this one
18:34:35 [jjcscribe]
Telecon ends
18:34:37 [Zakim]
-M_Smith
18:34:43 [Zakim]
-JosDR
18:34:47 [Zakim]
-Jeff
18:34:47 [Zakim]
-Jjc.
18:34:49 [Zakim]
-PatH
18:34:49 [Zakim]
-NickG
18:34:49 [Zakim]
-Peter_PS
18:34:50 [Zakim]
-IanH
18:34:52 [Zakim]
-Jonathan
18:34:53 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
18:35:05 [Zakim]
-HermantH
18:38:23 [Zakim]
-Mcguinness
18:41:58 [jhendler_]
actions
18:42:05 [jhendler_]
zakim, list actions
18:42:07 [Zakim]
I see Styl_XSL WG()1:00PM, SW_WebOnt()12:00PM
18:44:20 [jhendler_]
RRSAgents, list actions
18:45:07 [jhendler_]
RRSAgent, list actions
18:45:07 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item:
18:45:07 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mike Smith to coordinate with Chris about write up of owl:imports issue (Chris' open issue) [1]
18:45:07 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/12/05-webont-irc#T17-28-03
18:48:46 [Zakim]
-Guus
18:48:48 [Zakim]
-Jim_Hendler
18:48:50 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended