IRC log from #www2007 for 2007-05-09 during W3C track mostly...

In text and RDF ... of course

All datetimes in UTC.

Dave

06:02:43 <FabienG> * FabienG [18:05] waves at eric
06:02:43 <LeeF> [21:09] dajobe, are you here in Banff?
06:02:43 <dajobe> [21:40] I am
06:02:43 <sbp-> sbp- changed nickname to sbp
06:02:43 <jar286_> jar286_ changed nickname to jar286
06:02:43 <chimezie_> chimezie_ changed nickname to chimezie
06:02:43 <mariah> mariah changed nickname to r34
14:36:56 <FabienG> * FabienG [18:05] waves at eric
14:36:56 <LeeF> [21:09] dajobe, are you here in Banff?
14:36:56 <dajobe> [21:40] I am
14:37:14 <Paul_Miller> Paul_Miller has joined #www2007
14:37:22 <dajobe> it's *the* paul miller
14:38:47 <Paul_Miller> dajobe: That's the one...  ;-)
14:39:50 <Paul_Miller> Anyone got a cable long enough to run a webcam outside, so we can see the view?
14:49:59 <beobal> beobal has joined #www2007
14:53:11 <danja> danja has joined #www2007
15:00:36 <rjw> rjw has joined #www2007
21:36:15 <iand> * iand [16:06] waves to the people in banff, looking wistfully at the rain in England
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> * Paul_Miller [16:12] waves back to iand, and wishes he had a window, to describe the glorious view.
21:36:15 <danja> * danja [16:23] waves to iand
21:36:15 <danja> [16:23] my connection's not too hot - 10 second pings...
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [16:23] danja: Me too... Keep falling off Rendezvous etc, too...
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [16:23] I blame dajobe of course...
21:36:15 <danja> * danja [16:24] notes DanC cleans behind his ears
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> * Paul_Miller [16:30] counts THREE people who aren't in the room on this channel... and only five that are.
21:36:15 <sbp> [16:37] yeah, sorry
21:36:15 <rjw> * rjw [16:46] is going home.... in the rain.... thinking of you lucky guys up in them there mountains....  still it'll reduce the Talis-ness of this channel
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [16:46] G'night, rjw.
21:36:15 <rjw> [16:46] G'night jim-bob
21:36:15 <dajobe> [16:49] gah some rude guy in the row above is downloading firefox2 via this weak wifi signal
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [16:51] dajobe: Really? No wonder it's slow!
21:36:15 <mmmmmRob> [16:56] Paul_Miller where are you sitting?
21:36:15 <mmmmmRob> [16:59] semantic web spam - any day now
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [17:00] Coming to a browser near you...
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [17:00] Firefox 3 - now with added spam.
21:36:15 <dajobe> [17:00] microformat spam
21:36:15 <mmmmmRob> [17:01] what about trackback spam? I get loads
21:36:15 <dajobe> [17:02] yeah, I didn't believe that. it is mostly comment spam, though
21:36:15 <mmmmmRob> [17:02] dajobe, is that what you're working on?
21:36:15 <dajobe> [17:03] I don't think I'm working on spam.
21:36:15 <dajobe> * dajobe [17:04] works on planning for coffee break
21:36:15 <iand> * iand [18:27] waves from a train this time. still raining... :(
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:27] Still sunny...  :-)
21:36:15 <iand> * iand [18:28] has a yahoo widget showing banff weather
21:36:15 <mmmmmrob> [18:28] Still beautiful!
21:36:15 <mmmmmrob> * mmmmmrob [18:28] has a window showing baff weather, and mountains
21:36:15 <iand> * iand [18:29] has a window showing brutlist birmingham new street station
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:29] Birmingham New Street - possibly the worst station in the country.
21:36:15 <iand> [18:30] possibly. although my personal bugbeare is Theale - a village station serving a business park the size of a small town
21:36:15 <iand> [18:31] so, what am i missing?
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:31] Sunshine?
21:36:15 <mmmmmrob> [18:32] a _really_ interesting conversation about whether or not "web science" is a science
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:33] When is a science not a science?
21:36:15 <iand> [18:33] isn't is a sub-discipline of social science?
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:33] Oh don't YOU start...
21:36:15 <iand> [18:34] touchy.
21:36:15 <mmmmmrob> [18:35] feely.
21:36:15 <iand> [18:35] next you'll be saying that archeology is a science
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:35] No... just heard a lot of that...
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [18:35] Archaeology - science. Definitely. Unless you go to somewhere like Cambridge...  ;-)
21:36:15 <iand> * iand [19:00] thinks it's quiet in here. must be a great speaker
21:36:15 <mmmmmRob> [20:28] gosh it's quiet in here, does nobody use IRC at this conference?
21:36:15 <dfhuynh> [20:33] people are probably out hiking or something
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [20:36] Oh, if only...
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [20:36] A lot of the chatter seems to be over on #swig. Old habits die hard, I guess.
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [20:36] But timbl did say we all had to go outside, so how about it?
21:36:15 <dfhuynh> [20:39] it's all too tempting
21:36:15 <dfhuynh> [20:39] but i have an iswc 2007 paper to work on, too :(
21:36:15 <Paul_Miller> [20:40] dfhuynh: iswc2007 is weeks away!  ;-)  Still got my XTech one to do for next week...  :-(
21:36:15 <dfhuynh> [20:40] just 1.5 weeks, i think
21:36:15 <dfhuynh> [20:40] and I got some final project homework, too
21:36:16 <Paul_Miller> [20:40] "for the next three and a half hours... brief introduction". Hmm!
21:36:16 <dfhuynh> [20:41] ?...
21:36:16 <Paul_Miller> [20:41] dfhuynh: Sorry... quoting the speaker in the session I'm sat in...
21:36:16 <dfhuynh> [20:41] i see :)
21:36:16 <dfhuynh> [20:43] has eric neumann passed by here? he was having some trouble with exhibit for his demo... wonder if he needs a hand
21:36:16 <mmmmmRob> [21:13] dfhuynh_ aha, so simile
21:36:16 <mmmmmRob> [21:13] are you coming to the linked data session later?
21:36:16 <dfhuynh_> [21:13] yup, i'm
21:36:16 <dajobe> [21:14] ahh, I wanted to ask dfhuynh_ about exhibit json, see you there
21:36:16 <dfhuynh_> [21:14] sure thing :)
21:36:16 <mmmmmRob> [21:15] dfhuynh_ cool, see you there, nothin up, just wanted to say "hi"
21:36:16 <dfhuynh_> [21:15] cool, see you there!
21:36:16 <danja> [22:26] Paul_Miller, where are you now?
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:26] session on "Future of HTML" starting at 3:30 in Champlaigne
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:27] it's the hip place to be
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:28] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/w3c-track.html#web-page
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:28] abandon whatever other sessions you're in and come over here instead
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:29] or forever regret it
21:36:16 <Bert_lap> [22:29] You mean Cascade rather than Champlaigne, I think
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:29] Bert_lap - yeah, that
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:29] kas-ka-dee
21:36:16 <Bert_lap> [22:30] No doubt the room is called Cascade in honour of CSS...
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:30] heh
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:33] olivier theroux (chair for the "Future of HTML" session is introducing the session now
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:34] Panel: Chris Lilley, Dan Connolly, Arun Ranganathan, Dave Raggett, Bert Bos, Michael Cooper
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> * MikeSmith [22:35] will do some half-assed scribing here for "Future of HTML" session
21:36:16 <Mez> * Mez [22:35] applauds MikeSmith
21:36:16 <MikeSmith> [22:35] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/w3c-track.html#web-page
21:36:29 <MikeSmith> [Chris Lilley coming up to podium now]
21:37:03 <MikeSmith> Chris's slides:
21:37:06 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/Banff-WWW2007-HTMLReloaded/index.html
21:37:17 <Bert_lap> You're forgot to mention the panel's chair: Olivier Thereaux, the panel chair with the coolest glasses.
21:37:37 <Mez> * Mez thanks Bert_lap
21:37:41 <MikeSmith> "99.99999% of the Web was invalid HTML. W3C pretended that didn't exist. This isn't a workable solution."
21:37:53 <Mez> * Mez finds it odd to be talking to Bert_lap ...
21:38:25 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: there were benefits, if you had valid XHTML, you had a consistent DOM
21:38:38 <MikeSmith> ... was a benefit, but really it wasn't that great ...
21:38:55 <Bert_lap> * Bert_lap excuses himself for the name, my other self is logged in from my other machine under my normal name :-)
21:39:14 <Mez> nomination for understatement of the track "Chartering HTML and Forms... Probably the most complex rechartering at W3C"
21:39:39 <Bert_lap> Bert_lap is now known as Bert_Bos
21:40:38 <MikeSmith> ChrisL asks for show of hands, "How many people here are invited experts in the HTML WG"
21:40:43 <MikeSmith> 3 hands go up
21:40:51 <Mez> they all didn't need this session :-)
21:41:11 <MikeSmith> "Pretending to base HTML on SGML is no longer funny"
21:42:26 <MikeSmith> [on to next talk, from Dave Raggett, on Forms]
21:42:51 <dfhuynh> dfhuynh has joined #www2007
21:43:13 <MikeSmith> DaveR: one of the problems of forms is that for more than 10 years now, it's embarrassing now to think of some of the mistakes we made ... now time to fix them
21:43:46 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley has joined #www2007
21:43:58 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0509-dsr-forms/
21:44:16 <ChrisLilley> * ChrisLilley waves generally
21:44:51 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #www2007
21:44:52 <Mez> * Mez waves back
21:45:16 <Mez> * Mez images ChrisLilley using the British royalty wave style....
21:45:21 <DanC_lap> * DanC_lap looks around for logs
21:45:33 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - no logs here
21:45:56 <ChrisLilley> * ChrisLilley tries /invite Zakim irc://irc.freenode.net/www2007 and finds its not worky
21:46:00 <Paul_Miller> Paul_Miller has joined #www2007
21:46:03 <MikeSmith> except the ones getting written locally on our machines
21:46:31 <MikeSmith> DaveR asks how many people are comfortable with writing regular expressions
21:46:40 <MikeSmith> not many hands go up
21:46:57 <ChrisLilley> regexp is a write-only syntax
21:47:01 <MikeSmith> heh
21:47:05 <MikeSmith> one-way cipher
21:47:11 <dajobe> isn't that xslt?
21:47:32 <MikeSmith> you mean xquery
21:48:00 <MikeSmith> DaveR: despite what some feel, XForms has been a big success ...
21:48:15 <MikeSmith> ... in enterprise ... but not with browser vendors
21:49:30 <MikeSmith> DaveR: not all of us are skilled programmers, not good at scripting
21:50:17 <MikeSmith> DaveR trots out his Spreadsheets 2.0 hobbyhorse
21:50:54 <MikeSmith> DaveR: need to give the Web back to users for creating applications
21:50:56 <Steven_> :-O
21:51:23 <MikeSmith> [next speaker: Bert Bos on CSS]
21:51:37 <DanC_lap> [[
21:51:38 <DanC_lap> # 403 group participants,
21:51:38 <DanC_lap> # 403 in good standing,
21:51:38 <DanC_lap> # 56 participants from 20 organizations
21:51:38 <DanC_lap> # 347 Invited Experts
21:51:38 <DanC_lap> ]]
21:51:45 <DanC_lap> -- http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
21:51:45 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Talks/2007/0509-CSS-WWW2007/
21:52:26 <MikeSmith> [Bert's voice has a very soothing quality]
21:53:39 <danja> danja has quit
21:54:01 <mmmmmRob> mmmmmRob has joined #www2007
21:54:07 <MikeSmith> Bert: people do want to print from browser and have it look good ... footnotes, x-refs, other stuff
21:56:32 <DanC_lap> there's a public WD of mathml3 out recently, yes?
21:57:03 <DanC_lap> 27 April 2007: Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) Version 3.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-MathML3-20070427/
21:57:13 <ThomasT> * ThomasT notes that there is a poster presented about math in pure CSS+HTML in this conference (today in the CC)
21:57:19 <MikeSmith> Bert: we have been talking about math in HTML pages since at least 1996 (confernence in Darmstadt) and it still doesn't work ... but we are working on ti
21:57:24 <MikeSmith> working on it
21:57:51 <MikeSmith> [next speaker: Michael Cooper, to talk about accessibility concerns]
21:57:53 <Mez> Darmstadt was WWW3 in April 1995
21:58:10 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0509-WWW-MC/future
21:58:13 <Mez> * Mez feels old in web years
21:58:18 <Bert_Bos> Yeah, I remember places better than dates :-)
21:58:34 <Mez> you can find them all for the series at http://www.iw3c2.org/conferences/
21:58:51 <DanC_lap> Darmstadt was fun. I'll never forget the difference in style of the Apple and Microsoft keynotes (Alan Kay, Thomas Reardon)
21:59:08 <MikeSmith> AlanKay++
21:59:09 <Bert_Bos> That makes us, how much? 48 web years? :-)
21:59:15 <Mez> I threw out that grey umbrella within the last year (I should have savedit for web history!)
21:59:22 <dajobe> * dajobe emails the chatlog to webhistory org
21:59:36 <MikeSmith> dajobe - cheers
21:59:36 <karlUshi> karlUshi has joined #www2007
22:00:09 <Steven_> font++ ?
22:00:25 <MikeSmith> Steven_ - amen, that
22:00:36 <MikeSmith> somebody poke Michael C
22:00:38 <Bert_Bos> Re mathml3: yes WD is out, and also WD of mathml-for-CSS
22:01:06 <Steven_> Steven_ is now known as Steven__
22:01:17 <ChrisLilley> I never got funding to go to WWW2 or 3. But I was at 1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 and then stopped going for a bit
22:01:18 <Mez> * Mez notes that Steven has a long tail...
22:01:38 <dajobe> ChrisLilley: I found a pic of you and timbl from boston95, come find me and I'll show you
22:01:40 <Steven__> Steven__ is now known as Steven_
22:01:58 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
22:02:18 <ChrisLilley> * ChrisLilley asks dajobe to wave irl if in the w3c track
22:02:20 <Bert_Bos> Long tail... Steven 2.0? :-)
22:02:22 <Mez> 1 was before my time, and I missed 5 and 7 (due to conflicts and budget respectively), but was on the PC for 5 (Hopgood; greatest organized program chair ever) and steering for 7, so I feel involved with all but the 1st
22:02:57 <dajobe> * dajobe waves in irc from another room watching GeoTracker
22:02:58 <ThomasT> Bert_Bos: have a look at http://www2007.org/posters/poster1015.pdf
22:03:02 <Mez> Steven, the niche market?
22:03:06 <ChrisLilley> the first and second were in a race to be first, of course :)
22:03:25 <Mez> I totally missed that back room aspect back then
22:03:38 <Bert_Bos> * Bert_Bos looks at ThomasT's link...
22:03:47 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: Web 2.0 is a paradigm shift similar to shift from DOS to Windows
22:03:57 <MikeSmith> [in terms of accessibility concerns]
22:04:24 <Steven_> * Steven_ hopes that Mez is trying to get WWW2 back online
22:04:25 <Mez> we must learn to graduate from training to tools
22:04:27 <Bert_Bos> * Bert_Bos thanks ThomasT, will try and find the author.
22:04:48 <MikeSmith> [next (last) speaker: Arun]
22:05:00 <Mez> ... just like CHI did at least 15 years ago
22:05:22 <Mez> foo; have no idea what happened with www2
22:05:24 <MikeSmith> [Olivier jokes that Arun was invited to speak because he works for AOL, which is sponsoring the WWW 2007 conference]
22:05:27 <Mez> and I had a poster there...
22:05:44 <MikeSmith> Arun: I have deep, empathic bond with the W3C ...
22:06:03 <MikeSmith> [Arun is wearing W3C T-shirt]
22:06:15 <ChrisLilley> arun has swallowed the kool-aid
22:06:27 <MikeSmith> [Arun talking about various widget environments]
22:06:46 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/09-fwp/arun-enriching-webapp.html
22:06:53 <ChrisLilley> content is getting modular
22:07:36 <Mez> * Mez gives props to AOL and other sponsors, who enable things like the high quality chocoholic break we just had
22:07:39 <Steven_> Mez, it used to be at http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/IT94/Proceedings/WWW2_Proceedings.html
22:07:44 <MikeSmith> Arun talking about how webpages consist of stuff pulled in (aggregated etc.) from all the hell all over the place
22:08:18 <MikeSmith> Arun: how many of you build Flash apps?
22:08:23 <MikeSmith> [no hands?]
22:08:24 <Mez> trying to think who was involved. Hardin of course. I've asked steering what happened (I'm sure we went looking, since the link isn't broken, it's gone on iw3c2.org)
22:08:28 <ChrisLilley> few hand go up, yay!
22:08:36 <Steven_> Wayback hasn't got it: We're sorry, access to http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/IT94/Proceedings/WWW2_Proceedings.html has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.
22:09:16 <MikeSmith> Arun: Future of webapps will likely include many instances of proprietary [crap] messed in with [good] stuff based on standards
22:09:27 <MikeSmith> * MikeSmith is editorializing a bit
22:09:49 <Bert_Bos> Making it more objective? :-)
22:10:19 <ChrisLilley> all those proceedings are lost in time like ... tears, in rain
22:10:43 <MikeSmith> Arun: some of you have heard of Ajax ...
22:11:25 <Bert_Bos> Next year's conf should not only have  Web History, but also Web Poetry. Featuring ChrisLilley as guest of honour.
22:11:45 <DanC_lap> WWW2 proceedings have gone 404? harrumph. what good is all the web history foo here at the conference if we can't keep the flargin proceedings online.
22:11:54 <ChrisLilley> its not mine. its a bladerunner quote
22:11:57 <Mez> could reconstituting www2 be an interesting web history wiki like project?
22:12:04 <Steven_> too right DanC
22:12:18 <Bert_Bos> (22C3 - great conference, b.t.w. - had a poetry track)
22:12:23 <MikeSmith> Arun: web-apiS group working clipboard (copy/paste) and file-upload APIs ...
22:12:38 <MikeSmith> ... also DOM3 events, Selectors API ...
22:13:12 <MikeSmith> ... and network API gives you, say, an TCP/IP connection object ...
22:13:19 <Bert_Bos> (23C3 was the name of the latest, actually)
22:13:45 <Mez> btw, don't know if you remember, but for www2, submissions were abstracts. I don't remember if papers came out afterwards, or just abstracts and presentations.
22:13:56 <MikeSmith> [Arun closes]
22:14:04 <MikeSmith> [time for panel]
22:14:31 <anarchitect1> anarchitect1 has joined #www2007
22:14:37 <schepers> schepers has joined #www2007
22:14:49 <MikeSmith> first: discussion among the panelists [though Olivier says "between the panelists"]
22:14:57 <anarchitect1> anarchitect1 has quit
22:15:04 <mauro_Boston> mauro_Boston has joined #www2007
22:15:31 <DanC_lap> hmm... OT notes this channel... that suggests there will a public log. that's good to plaster "over the door"
22:15:44 <mauro_Boston> mauro_Boston is now known as mauro_banff
22:16:26 <MikeSmith> olivier: I was asking if there is still innovation in the realm of the webpage ...
22:16:30 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley has changed the topic to: this channel is logged - Unofficial WWW2007 channel
22:16:38 <MikeSmith> ... so question to ChrisL
22:16:40 <anarchitect> anarchitect has joined #www2007
22:17:09 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: what we need is to say that CR = "is it implementable"
22:17:29 <MikeSmith> ... REC = "go out and use this now"
22:17:54 <MikeSmith> MichaelC: innovation will happen whether we as standards people do anything about it not
22:18:06 <MikeSmith> ... what is important for us is to stay on top of it ...
22:18:23 <MikeSmith> ... and make sure that accessibility is addressed asap ...
22:18:30 <schepers> .. needs to be top-down and bottom-up
22:18:54 <ChrisLilley> no, i still think it should go to rec, which says its passed CR. But then we need a Web Standard later, with a second CR-like period
22:19:06 <MikeSmith> DanC_lap: we need an HTML standard that levels the playing field [baseline of interoperability]
22:19:38 <MikeSmith> Arun talks about previous attempts to "rescue HTML from the clutches of the W3C"
22:20:04 <Klaus> Klaus has joined #www2007
22:20:10 <MikeSmith> DaveR: fixing problems of scripting and CSS are issues ...
22:20:17 <ChrisLilley> Dave: bigger problems with scripting and CSS than with HTML
22:20:56 <MikeSmith> DaveR: [we always need HTML even if we have higher-level authoring languages for generating HTML]
22:21:00 <ChrisLilley> bert refers to his postultimate slide
22:21:09 <MikeSmith> Bert: maintenance is essential
22:21:32 <MikeSmith> damn, chaals at the mic
22:21:57 <MikeSmith> Chaals: we need both [innovation and maintenance?]
22:23:13 <MikeSmith> ... we have all individually been implementing some of this stuff (clipboard, etc). based on black magic and guessing what each other (browser vendors) have done
22:23:28 <MikeSmith> ... [so we need standards for interoperability]
22:23:46 <MikeSmith> [ChrisL makes comment
22:24:20 <MikeSmith> chaals: to those of you have been "dragged out of the museum" to come here, what would have done differently?
22:24:29 <MikeSmith> ... [now that you know what mistakes you made]
22:24:45 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: why did we have to so this SGML things?
22:25:01 <Bert_Bos> Naming and shaming. Yes, I'm doing that and have always done that, but can only be ahead of the implementations by a little bit, otherwise people will blame my site instead of the browsers.
22:25:16 <karlUshi> karlUshi has quit
22:25:26 <MikeSmith> ... I often wonder what would have happened if we had specified the syntax we had actually been using [not imposing SGML on top of it]
22:25:53 <MikeSmith> ... which is what we are finally getting around to doing now [in the HTML WG]
22:26:06 <Mez> wikis irritate me for the same reason; no relative links
22:26:07 <MikeSmith> [question from attendee which I missed]
22:26:31 <dfhuynh> dfhuynh has quit
22:26:38 <Mez> asked about the inability to link into Flash "do something! do something!" (a quote from, I think, Comedy of Errors)
22:26:42 <ThomasT> Jacek Kopecki, Deri Innsbruck
22:26:45 <MikeSmith> DanC: Flash is great for some things, but if you use it for things that HTML is better for [you are making a poor design choice]
22:26:47 <tommorris> tommorris has joined #www2007
22:27:22 <Bert_Bos> (Flash is only useful at leaf nodes on the Web.)
22:27:22 <MikeSmith> Arun: can't use semantic stuff in Flash -- for example, microformats
22:27:48 <seamuslawless> seamuslawless has joined #www2007
22:27:55 <schepers> * schepers notes that it's not up to W3C to make technical decisions for Flash... that's up to Adobe
22:28:32 <MikeSmith> Arun: W3C should be a place for those who are interested in "massive interoperability"
22:28:36 <mcf> mcf has joined #www2007
22:29:32 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: session states is what you are asking for and something that the W3C should be working on ...
22:30:11 <seamuslawless> seamuslawless has quit
22:30:23 <MikeSmith> ... [Chris gives example of "playing with a webapp for 20 minutes, then you want to link to it, but you can only currently link to the start point, not the 20-minutes later point]
22:30:37 <MikeSmith> Attendee: Do you see a future for SMIL?
22:31:06 <MikeSmith> ... What is relationship between the HTML WG and XHTML2 WG ...
22:31:22 <JacekK> JacekK has joined #WWW2007
22:31:32 <MikeSmith> ... what is your recommendation to Web authors about that? (what should we use) ...
22:31:41 <MikeSmith> [sound of can of worms opening]
22:32:18 <MikeSmith> Chris suggests that Steven Pemberton and DanC should answer that.
22:32:34 <MikeSmith> Steven: XHTML2 was designed on input from many communities
22:32:42 <JacekK> * JacekK voices apologies to Arun for calling him "the AOL guy"
22:33:12 <MikeSmith> ... trying to find an architecture for addressing a variety of problems ...
22:33:24 <MikeSmith> ... and putting the solution into a single package ...
22:33:41 <MikeSmith> ... it has been adopted in DIAL because it is an extremely good authoring format ...
22:33:58 <Bert_Bos> SMIL is doing fine, version 3 is under development. But for wider use, we need some good and free audio and video formats, and W3C doesn't make those.
22:34:00 <MikeSmith> ... one for which you don't necessarily need browser support ...
22:34:19 <MikeSmith> DanC: I am much less ambitious
22:34:30 <Bert_Bos> The Ogg formats look promising though.
22:34:39 <MikeSmith> ... my goal is how to specify the stuff you are already seeing fly by on the wire
22:34:56 <dfhuynh> dfhuynh has joined #www2007
22:35:08 <MikeSmith> RhysLewis: DIAL is my fault ...
22:36:08 <MikeSmith> ... we decided what we wanted to do was come up with a "clean" authoring language ...
22:36:29 <MikeSmith> ... in this model, what authors write is not what goes to the device ...
22:37:08 <MikeSmith> ... I think at the moment, the power of XHTML is that it provides the basis for that clean authoring language ...
22:37:43 <MikeSmith> [attendee not very satisfied with that answer]
22:38:15 <ChrisLilley> attendee wonders, if it can be transformed, why use xforms
22:38:16 <MikeSmith> Attendee: You can't transform the complex features of XForms to HTML forms
22:38:27 <MikeSmith> Rhys: I'm sorry, you're wrong. You can.
22:38:31 <ChrisLilley> answer is that what you transform to is deeply ugly (but works)
22:38:41 <dajobe> * dajobe points at http://oatmealstout.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/www2007-dave-raggett-on-next-steps-for-html-forms/ onwards for some summaries of these talks
22:39:09 <DanC_lap> after the muck-a-muck reception, I bumped into somebody who seemed to be at the heart of video codec standardization. I wonder if I wrote down the name.
22:39:14 <MikeSmith> [Olivie talking]
22:39:22 <MikeSmith> [Olivier talking]
22:39:34 <Mez> * Mez chuckles
22:40:44 <MikeSmith> Bert: in CSS, there is really only one standard that matters, and that is the latest version
22:41:07 <MikeSmith> ... but users only care about what is the latest one that actually works
22:41:14 <ChrisLilley> low water mark and high water mark?
22:41:59 <DanC_lap> (er... w.r.t. advocacy and advice, saying "it's just a communication problem" seems goofy)
22:42:00 <MikeSmith> Bert: We tryed to use the word "level" instead of "version" to help make things more clear
22:42:08 <anarchitect> anarchitect has quit
22:42:37 <tommorris_> tommorris_ has quit
22:42:56 <MikeSmith> Chris: relates to what I was talking about earlier with how we need something more between CR and Rec
22:43:02 <ChrisLilley> but it didn't, really
22:44:03 <MikeSmith> Arun: versioning on specs is bane of anybody who's trying to figure out what to do
22:44:15 <MikeSmith> ... use a good authoring tool ...
22:44:25 <MikeSmith> ... so you are then insulated from that problem ...
22:45:12 <MikeSmith> RickEfromUofWashington: I was involved in WCAG 2, where we did a lot of reviews of draft ...
22:45:21 <MikeSmith> ... made me wonder how are we doing on process ...
22:45:31 <MikeSmith> ... is the current W3C process "doing the job"
22:46:00 <MikeSmith> DanC: there was a time when the 200 people in this room would have been "it" ...
22:46:15 <MikeSmith> [that would have been the whole set of people you needed to convince of anything
22:46:27 <MikeSmith> ... now it's a certain amount of "shoot in the dark" ...
22:46:40 <MikeSmith> ... because of hugeness of community ...
22:46:58 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I'm not quite as pessimistic as DanC ...
22:47:10 <MikeSmith> ... it's not all volunteers ...
22:47:33 <MikeSmith> ... there are people in many orgs who are paid [full time] to work on standards-related activities
22:47:55 <MikeSmith> DanC: it works well when W3C gets involved at the right time ...
22:48:13 <MikeSmith> ... example: GRDDL, which is still a relatively small community ...
22:48:17 <Mez> the way that businesses convince is a lot of people is to have marketing and sales, get feedback from customers, and charge them :-)
22:48:30 <Mez> s/ is/'s/
22:48:47 <Klaus_> Klaus_ has joined #www2007
22:48:51 <MikeSmith> Chaals: we are the guys in the middle [between low-water mark and high-water mark]
22:48:59 <MikeSmith> ... I quite like XHTML2 ...
22:49:21 <MikeSmith> ... (for reasons StevenP mentioned) ...
22:49:37 <ChrisLilley> actually, you guys are lifting the low water mark
22:49:43 <MikeSmith> ... on the other hand, we (Opera) make a browser for people to use ...
22:49:56 <MikeSmith> ... we address what /users/ want ...
22:51:41 <ChrisLilley> html 3.2 is submerged. below the low water mark. hopefully it will drown
22:51:48 <MikeSmith> ... it's a popularity contest ...
22:52:01 <MikeSmith> StevenP: I think it is difficult for browser builders ...
22:52:14 <MikeSmith> ... there is not a good economic model for building a browser ...
22:52:32 <MikeSmith> ... so I think you can't blame them for that ...
22:52:46 <Bert_Bos> Charles seems to imply that browsers (or at least Opera) are not the driving force for innovation anymore...
22:52:59 <MikeSmith> ... though I do remember hearing one guy say that XSLT would only go into his company's browser "over his head body" ...
22:53:06 <MikeSmith> ... and it's in there now ...
22:53:12 <ChrisLilley> Steven notes that Håkon is not in fact dead. Despite XSLT being in Opera
22:53:14 <mauro_banff> s/head/dead
22:53:25 <MikeSmith> * MikeSmith says damn right to that  ... XSLT++
22:53:34 <Klaus> Klaus has quit
22:53:45 <Klaus_> Klaus_ is now known as Klaus
22:54:15 <Steven_> * Steven_ notes that he didn't actually name the person, CHris did ;-)
22:54:37 <ChrisLilley> "naming and ...."
22:54:51 <JacekK> JacekK has quit
22:55:08 <MikeSmith> [VirginiaFromTorontoStockExchange asking a question]
22:55:24 <Steven_> (For the record: I didn't name the person, despite the record above)
22:55:44 <MikeSmith> Virginia: As a product manager and usability expert, I find that your (W3C) is not geared to me ...
22:55:53 <MikeSmith> Virginia: As a product manager and usability expert, I find that your (W3C) communication is not geared to me ...
22:56:29 <Mez> * Mez loves that comment
22:56:34 <MikeSmith> Olivier: W3C has historically been about getting specs out the door and hoping people are there waiting to do something with it
22:57:00 <MikeSmith> DaveR: the new HTML WG has many public participants and volunteers ...
22:57:04 <Mez> any comm team in the house?
22:57:23 <MikeSmith> ... hopefully some people within that group will volunteer to help with improving communication
22:57:58 <MikeSmith> Virginia: Realize that here are people keenly working within the Web space who are not developers.
22:58:06 <MikeSmith> Virginia: Realize that there are people keenly working within the Web space who are not developers.
22:58:14 <Mez> it's the "why it's like this" that's really valuable
22:58:17 <dfhuynh> dfhuynh has quit
22:58:52 <DanC_lap> (usability is another thing that's squeaking into the W3C program of work. esp. the new security context WG.)
22:58:54 <MikeSmith> NoahM from IBM and W3C TAG asking a question
22:58:55 <Mez> for example, I was just reading the "allow cross site reading" spec, and Art had said it was supposed to enable specific use cases. I really wanted to read some examples, in some other document, linked from the spec (since they're not spec material)
22:59:06 <Bert_Bos> Several W3C Offices also have excellent material, summaries, etc.
22:59:11 <MikeSmith> Noah: I think it's harder that it's harder than we are letting on ...
22:59:19 <mauro_banff> [yes, Mez, 5 in the podium + Olivier, and at least 4 or 5 on the audience]
22:59:21 <ChrisLilley> I find that if the spec isd too terse and formal, that developers second guess and 'improve'; its important to say why a choice was made
22:59:40 <Mez> * Mez waves at mauro
22:59:44 <MikeSmith> ... I worked on Lotus and well understand the problem of not letting architecture getting too far ahead
22:59:53 <mauro_banff> * mauro_banff waves back :)
22:59:56 <MikeSmith> [somebody please help with logging what Noah is saying]
23:00:32 <Mez> * Mez not getting it yet; sorry
23:00:39 <MikeSmith> Noah: [example of soundness of GET design]
23:02:00 <MikeSmith> ... to just at the right time notice the few places where, if you don't take the trouble now to make better architecture ...
23:02:00 <ChrisLilley> i think noah is saying, aloow unforseen uses. pages authored for humans being harvested for bots. otherwise it closes out innovation
23:02:00 <ChrisLilley> I *think* that is his point
23:02:01 <ChrisLilley> s/aloow/allow/
23:02:01 <MikeSmith> ... you are locking into limited architecture that is not going to be extensible later ...
23:02:01 <Mez> * Mez waves general goodbye; need to call hubby before reception
23:02:01 <ChrisLilley> who is posting the log?
23:02:01 <Mez> Mez has left #www2007
23:02:01 <ChrisLilley> and where too?
23:02:01 <MikeSmith> [we are closing the session]
23:02:13 <MikeSmith> dajobe: you can post the log?
23:02:21 <Bert_Bos> About misuse of GET and POST, that is not clearly explained to developers in a hurry.
23:02:27 <ThomasT> ThomasT has left #www2007
23:02:31 <DanC_lap> QA weblog http://www.w3.org/QA/
23:02:53 <MikeSmith> somebody please take care of posting log ... I got to pee
23:03:09 <dajobe> to www-archive I guess?
23:03:16 <DanC_lap> heh... what a remark to put in the log ;-)
23:03:20 <DanC_lap> sure, to www-archive
23:03:25 <yod> yod has quit
23:03:26 <dajobe> ok, I'll do that
23:03:47 <mauro_banff> thanks Dave!
23:03:59 <FabienG> FabienG has left #www2007
23:04:23 <Paul_Miller> Paul_Miller has quit
23:06:02 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley has left #www2007
23:06:41 <MikeSmith> dajobe - thanks
23:07:01 <danja> danja has joined #www2007
23:07:08 <MikeSmith> please post the URL here (when you got one)
23:07:45 <MikeSmith> in hindsight, we probably should have just done this on W3C #public-html
23:07:47 <Paul_Miller> Paul_Miller has joined #www2007