Meeting minutes, 2015-03-23

The full, technicolor and Dolby Stereo version:

http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-minutes.html

The B&W, pedestrian version below:

Ivan



   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

            Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

23 Mar 2015

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/mid/5509EBBF.1090504@gmail.com

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Charles LaPierr (clapierre), Tzviya Siegman (Tzviya),
          Phil Madans (philm), Mike Miller (MikeMiller), Karen
          Myers (Karen_Myers), Nick Ruffilo (NickRuffilo), Liam
          Quin (Liam), Vlad Levantovski (Vlad), kwkbtr, Deborah
          Kaplan (dkaplan3), Brady Duga (duga), Shinyu Murakami
          (murakami), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Peter Krautzberger
          (pkra), Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Liza Daly (Liza),
          Markus Gylling (Markus), Alan Stearns (astearns), Laura
          Fowler (lfowler), Paul Belfanti (pbelfanti), Ben De
          Meester (bjdmeest), Dave Cramer (dauwhe)

   Regrets
          Luc, Heather, Thierry, Julie, David_Stroup

   Chair
          Tzviya

   Scribe
          NickRuffilo

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]review on CSS fragments
         2. [6]Identifiers
         3. [7]latinreq
         4. [8]action items in tracker
         5. [9]plan face-to-face meetings
         6. [10]ePub 3.1 call for functionality
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 23 March 2015

   <scribe> scribe:NickRuffilo

   <scribe> scribenick:NickRuffilo

   !scribenick:NickRuffilo

   <tzviya> agenda
   [12]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
   Mar/0022.html

     [12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0022.html

   <tzviya> scribenick: NickRuffilo

   <ivan> Chair: Tzviya

   Meeting begin!

   <tzviya>
   [13]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
   Mar/0019.html

     [13] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0019.html

   Tzviya: "Any comments on the notes from last meeting?"
   ...: "Minutes approved."

review on CSS fragments

   <tzviya> [14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break-3/
   ...: "Next agenda items - review/comments on CSS fragments from
   liza and brady."

     [14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break-3/

   Brady: "Not sure who has read the spec of css-break -
   introduces fragmentaners. Covers page-break, column break,
   fragment break, etc. How that works in various situations,
   floats, etc. Seems obvious but it's actually alot trickier than
   it sounds, so it goes into lots of details. I've posted some
   comments. No responses yet, but I just posted them. Overall
   spec looks good, tackles difficult

   area, and would be great to have it implemented."

   Ivan: "Can you post a link to reply?"

   Brady: "I'm doing multiple replies, but everything has
   CSS-BREAK in the title."

   Ivan: "In the WWW Style mailing list, right?"

   Brady: "Yes"

   <astearns> many threads here:
   [15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/

     [15] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/

   <ivan> comments on the www-style mailing lis

   Liza: "I reviewed it in the context of having implemented
   pagination using web technologies (aka terrible hack using
   something existing like columns or regions or by hand). For me,
   the problems I was looking for this to solve - which is solves
   some and not others - such as how to break up complex object
   like tables. There are some rules on how to break out tables.
   What I found is that alot of

   concept we have at Safari, in which this spec doesn't address,
   is with placed elements like images, video, and movable blocks.
   So if you were making print-layout, you would deal with widows,
   orphans, images by making the page smaller and dealing with
   those cases individually. Certain kinds of content wouldn't
   find this solution particularly attractive as it would still
   wouldn't work wonderfully

   for highly disjointed content. Images, widows, captions, etc."
   ...: "This won't solve those issues, but it will solve lots of
   other complex layouts. Most of publisher content will still not
   make publishers feel like pagination is a solved problem."

   Brady: "I agree with that. It does not handle the dynamic
   reflow you want when dealing with pagination. Unfortunately I
   don't quite understand how tables break if you're breaking
   within a table-row. Easy to break within the boundaries, but
   not sure how a page has multiple page-breaks"

   Alan: "I believe multiple-page-breaks is trying to address
   that. The section on parallel flows. Examples may not be
   sufficient or explicable, so feedback on that would be
   wonderful. Spec is just on how things are layed out, but
   nothing on how fragment containers are adjusted. Interesting to
   see if resizing monolithic elements within a container is
   possible within break opportunities. It

   tries to deal with widows/ophans and captions in check. You can
   have breaks prohibited between paired items. Only issue is when
   the two items are unable to fit within the unbreaked
   container."

   Liza: "Surprised to see lots of examples where the page size
   varied from page-to-page. It would describe the behavior if the
   pages were extremely varied different sizes. Only time I would
   see something like that in real-life publishing is if a page
   went from portrait to landscape."

   Alan: "Happens more in magazines when you go from full-page to
   column-based layouts. Most of CSS assumes you have a particular
   length to work in."

Identifiers

   <Bill_Kasdorf>
   [16]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers

     [16] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers

   Bill: "I can be brief: Thanks to Tzviya and Ivan we've made
   great leaps forward. The Wiki (link above) has a good group of
   people signed up, but more are welcome. What Tzviya contributed
   was a great start on a background section. Earlier, Ivan
   started to develop a strategy around how we would identify
   identifiers that are specific to media types. Just use them,
   don't define them. Secondly

   identifiers that get you into the package/some place within the
   package. Please read the Wiki as there is wonderful information
   in there."
   ...: "I will see if Tzviya/Ivan have anything to add."

   Tzviya: "I think we may just want to outline the goal of the
   TF."

   Bill: "The overarching goal is identifiers in general for ebup
   web. Identifying the publication will be messy, so lets first
   start with identifying fragments. Ideally the outcome is to
   recommend to the W3C refinements to the existing spec or some
   other solution that gets us where we need to get. Now we need
   to identify fragments as that will be important to annotations
   and other sections of

   publishing."

   Tzviya: "Ideally we take an existing spec with no changes,
   IDEAL world..."

   <Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention xpointer framework

   Bill: "Thats the thing we've identified. Noting what is needed
   and hopefully we find that is already out there and the diffs."

   Liam: "We have a framework for XML document called XPOINTER
   where you name a scheme - cfi or xpath, that is probably worth
   looking at as it provides you the ability to define what you're
   pointing at and the pointing mechanisms."
   ...: "People have been doing it for 20 years which is fairly
   robust to changes/namespaces"

   Ivan: "In a sense, my view is that XPOINTER is something we
   should - of course - use as a black box, as well as all the
   other fragment identifiers for different media types. Because
   they are there and we should not reinvent the wheel. What is
   unique is that we have a package and we have to find a way to
   get into the package. To all the various schemes in the
   background, only CFI and those

   that are in the package, are those that are too be reviewed,
   critisized, etc."
   ...: "What both do is start with the package, then identify the
   document within the package. The 2nd step is to go within the
   document which is in the package. The CSI doesn't do a really
   good job because they also specify the fragment into the HTML
   document, which should be left to the XPOINTER. The goal is to
   get to the document when starting within a package. I have
   tried to collect the

   requirements for having such a mechanism. Whether those
   requirements are the right ones, or if there are others to be
   looked at, that is something we need to find together. For
   example: My understanding of CFI is that actually it can go
   through several documents from the package. From the Package
   you can get to HTML, then to an object, then to something else.
   So it hops through steps before

   getting to a media type, something that the package identifier
   does not do."
   ...: "Not sure this is a requirement for the publishing
   industry or not. If it is, it is something we need for the web
   packages. CFI doesn't lose any of the fragments. My preferences
   would be to rely on fragment identifiers."
   ... "That would be a way for us to focus on what is specific."

   tzviya: "part of it has to do with how we get inside the
   package, which is dependent on HOW we structure the package..."

   Ivan: "Indeed. the CFI and package fragment take a different
   part simply because the package is different. But they do the
   same thing."

   Markus: "Two things. First - when it comes to fragments - we
   have many simple questions to ask. Given the HTML document that
   is part of the package. I want to define something that is a
   text-fragment, is there a way for me to do that today? What are
   the things we would need to do to allow that? That's pretty
   straight-forward, but we need to list the requirements but we
   need to list the stuff

   that we would want to identify."

   mgylling: "I wanted to - in terms of ultimate goal - which
   pertains to fragments, paths, and identifiers, it isn't just
   about packages. If you look at it from the whitepaper, it
   shouldn't matter if the package is an archive or exploded and
   online. If I create a URI, that URI should look the same no
   matter what the publication is (archive or online) which is an
   important thing to remember moving

   forward. If we don't get there, we will end up reinventing
   things with different syntax, but we've painted ourselves into
   a corner. We shouldn't have syntax based off a state of the
   publication."

   Ivan: "we have to deal with the most specific one - identifying
   something within one document; The classical fragment issue.
   Must have a clear idea on what our requirements are on this
   term. What I'm saying is that we should at least try."

   <tzviya> me/ hi, dave - still on fragIDs, already did CSS
   fragments
   ...: "If it is an xpointer scheme we haven't implemented yet,
   ok, but we need to reply on it. The fundamental approach should
   be - whatever possible, rely on existing fragment IDs. This is
   one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is
   identifying a BOOK or a document. Which is about giving an
   identifier. This is complicated because it isn't a fragment,
   it's in the Identifier

   world, which is messy. There is something in between which is a
   different set of requirements. "

   Bill: "I thought we were going to have a TF call? Should we
   have the call, or have the discussion via e-mail?"

   Tzviya: "Conversation started on the list, then schedule a
   call."

latinreq

   <tzviya> [17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

     [17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

   Dave: "update is that there isn't much to update. Where do we
   go from here? Prince is using it as a blueprint for book
   products to try to increase the value of that PDF forematter. I
   would love to add/flesh out more too it, but not sure what I
   should be adding right now. Contributions/comments are very
   welcome!"

   Nick: "What is latinreq?"

   Dave: "How page layout should be done in western languages.
   Inspired by JLreq - spec for japanese. What do they do for
   pagenumbers, running headers, typesetting, line-heights,
   headings."
   ...: "Alot of this stuff has not been written down anywhere.
   Just been the oral traditions of typesetters and composition
   people. For the web/electronic documents, been trying to write
   it down."

   Markus: "What happened with JLReq - it was completed,
   finalized, then the editors retired. Do you see latinreq as a
   living rec that will not go that path? Or should we maintain
   the idea of completeness/final?"

   <tzviya> [18]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

     [18] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/

   Dave: "I have no intention of ending things. So I think of it
   as a living thing. I would like it to keep evolving and getting
   bigger/better."
   ... "Edits will ebb/flow, based on the community and people who
   are willing to help. In this case, I don't want to declare
   victory and go home. I feel like there is much more."

   Tzviya: "There were some areas we would hope there would be
   work with other communities, such as STEM. We might find the
   results of Peter's survey we might have additional information,
   such as equations, etc."

   <pkra> +1

   Dave: "We'll take contributions in any forms. Sketches,
   examples, etc. I'll do the formal writing, but I need
   feedback/input"

   Alan: "Liza brought up something with fragmentation spec - how
   publishing deals with fitting monolithic content into
   fixed-size page. There might be useful notes in latinreq about
   how such content fits within it's containers."

   Tzviya: "Page-break-inside, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes
   it doesnt."

   Alan: "Based on the aspect ratio, the caption could be on the
   left, right, a different page (the facing page, etc)... Lots of
   things that happen around the placement of captions relative to
   images."

   Tzviya: "Another issue we discussed is tables. Not sure we
   discussed diagonal headers... Probably a good discussion about
   offline."
   ...: "When the header is on an angle, but the body content is
   normal. Timetables are often done like that."

   Tzviya: "if you have exmaples of wacky content, Dave can write
   it up."

action items in tracker

   <ivan> action-21 ?

   <trackbot> action-21 -- Peter Krautzberger to Publish first
   draft of stem use cases and pain points summary -- due
   2015-02-28 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/21

     [19] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/21

   Peter: "We are deferring this..."

   tzviya: "We need to prioritize. Peter has too many action
   items."
   ...: "Will this come out of the STEM survey?"

   Peter: "Yes."
   ... "Survey going out this week, so we'll be able to do this
   after that."

   <ivan> action-27?

   <trackbot> action-27 -- Peter Krautzberger to Compare mathml
   tables with html, and write it up on a wiki page -- due
   2015-03-19 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/27

     [20] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/27

   Peter: "I have done some work, but it hasn't been completed.
   Can we just push this? I need to do some stuff for the math
   working group. The STEM survey has my priority."

   Tzviya: "Do you want to bring this task to the Math working
   group and have them do this?"

   Peter: "Yes."

   <ivan> action-31?

   <trackbot> action-31 -- Karen Myers to Initiate business use
   case -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/31

     [21] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/31

   Tzviya: "We'll change this to 'by the math working group'"

   <ivan> action-34?

   <trackbot> action-34 -- Peter Krautzberger to Send stem survey
   -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/34

     [22] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/34

   Karen: "Yes. I've made some progress, but please give me 2
   weeks. Wnat it by first week in april"

   <ivan> close action-34

   <trackbot> Closed action-34.

   <ivan> action-42?

   <trackbot> action-42 -- Ivan Herman to Find someone to review
   i18n web page -- due 2015-01-15 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/42

     [23] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/42

   <ivan> close action-42

   <trackbot> Closed action-42.

   <ivan> action-43?

   <trackbot> action-43 -- Tzviya Siegman to Dpub to read i18n
   documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis -- due
   2015-01-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/43

     [24] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/43

   <ivan> close action-43

   <trackbot> Closed action-43.

   <ivan> action-44?

   <trackbot> action-44 -- Markus Gylling to Talk to brady about
   fleshing out the pagination use cases -- due 2015-01-19 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/44

     [25] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/44

   <ivan> close action-44

   <trackbot> Closed action-44.

   <ivan> action-45?

   <trackbot> action-45 -- Brady Duga to Add information to
   personalization use cases -- due 2015-02-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/45

     [26] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/45

   <brady_duga> I dropped (deadzone), but I think I still have
   something to do on 45

   <brady_duga> I forgot it existed - sorry

   <ivan> action-46?

   <trackbot> action-46 -- Tzviya Siegman to Contact the html wg
   for a working definition of footnote -- due 2015-02-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/46

     [27] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/46

   Tzviya: "Two weeks will be added to give Brady time."

   <ivan> action-47?

   <trackbot> action-47 -- Thierry Michel to Create new wiki for
   identifiers tf -- due 2015-03-02 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/47

     [28] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/47

   <ivan> close action-47

   <trackbot> Closed action-47.

   <ivan> action-48?

   <trackbot> action-48 -- Peter Krautzberger to Gather font
   metric info from the mathwg for houdini -- due 2015-03-09 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/48

     [29] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/48

   <pkra> Sorry I dropped off the call.

   <pkra> This was actually two items.

   <pkra> a) use case of font metrics for MathJax / MathML
   polyfilling

   Tzviya: "Hoping peter can get in touch witht he Match working
   group"

   <pkra> b) talk to MathWG about other use cases.

   <dauwhe> Link for Houdini Font Metrics spec:
   [30]http://dev.w3.org/houdini/font-metrics-api/

     [30] http://dev.w3.org/houdini/font-metrics-api/

   <pkra> a) I have started on

   <pkra> b) I will bring up on the next call with the MathWG.

   Tzyiva: "Is there anyoen else who can help peter with this?"

   <tzviya> thanks, Peter - is 4 weeks enoughs?

   <pkra> tzviya yes, 4 weeks will do it.

plan face-to-face meetings

   <tzviya>
   [31]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_
   Details

     [31] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details

   Tzviya: "we have May meeting scheduled for 26th May, NYC.
   Please add your information to the wiki to let us know you're
   coming. We would like to start planning the agenda."
   ...: "I think we also talked about broader issues, such as
   packaging."

   Markus: "Rather than just having reports, which we do on these
   calls. So bigger topics such as packaging."

   Tzviya: "Please add your name to the May meeting. If you're in
   the new york area, please show up. It's the time for IDPF and
   BEA. Information for hotels is there. Book early."
   ...: "TPAC? in Sopporo Japan. We are supposed to respond to a
   questionnaire. Organizers need to know if we're going."

   <ivan> TPAC: Week of the 26th of October, Sapporo

   Ivan: "I think the TPAC meeting is a little different than the
   previous. Going through the TF reports we can do elsewhere.
   What was very useful in the last one was to talk to a number of
   other groups. That would be one of the main reasons that having
   the meeting there would be important, even though I realize not
   many people will show up. Having our voice heard is important.
   Other things we

   should try to do is we have unfortunately only a few people
   from east-asia in the group and this is a chance for their
   voices to be heard."

   <tzviya> [32]http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/
   ...: "Also good to get a japanese/east-asian perspective. We
   should give a slightly different view on the meeting and try to
   have it."
   ... "IETF meeting there as well previous, so Heather may be
   there as well."

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/

ePub 3.1 call for functionality

   Markus: "In the next 2 months, the IDPF is collecting
   suggestions for the upcoming epub 3.1 revision. Which will be
   proposed in May, and kickoff in the summer/end of year. 3.1 is
   first revision that IDPF is running in the lifetime of Digital
   Publishing WG and since the relationship and desire for
   convergence. That said, 3.1 is not the new big epub web, but an
   increment to the existing."
   ...: "There is an opportunity, even though it can't be
   dramatic, to propose features/change requests based on our
   work. If you're interested in coming up with such
   proposals/suggestions, feel free to contact me."

   Ivan: "Typical case - something that may come back to bill - if
   you take a look at the document that the Metadata group
   produced, there are very specifically things that we say "The
   open web platform has the technologies to do this. The DPUB WG
   may not use these technologies yet. These are the things that
   may come to this."

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704