ISSUE-37

html-svg-mathml

Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html

State:
CLOSED
Product:
HTML 5 spec
Raised by:
Adrian Bateman
Opened on:
2008-03-10
Description:
The defacto language of the existing web is text/html and, as a consequence, many existing backend systems are not suitable for producing XHTML in a reasonably error-proof manner. However the text/html platform is limited in its ability to support some types of content that are of considerable interest to authors and have deployed support in XML-aware UAs. In particular the ability to include inline vector graphics via SVG and inline mathematics via MathML is missing from the text/html platform. Typical use cases for supporting these technologies inside text/html include (taken from [1]):

* Converting a typical LaTeX paper to text/html such that everything that wouldn’t get bitmapped in a pdfLaTeX workflow does not get bitmapped.

 * Writing a similar document into text/html in a text editor copying and pasting the SVG figures from Inkscape XML output.

 * Making Flash-like visually “high-impact” sites using the openly specified Web platform but without the Draconianness of XML in such a way that the whole thing uses retained-mode graphics and lives in one DOM for easy scripting (i.e. no need for scripts to deal with object or iframe sub-DOMs).

 * Publishing the kind of content that is published on http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/ using a legacy PHP content management system that is not XML-ready.

Reference [1] also details technical requirements that arise if text/html is to address this set of use cases. Sub issues that require consideration include the syntax constraints imposed on the non-HTML subtrees (whether they must match the HTML or XML syntax where html-in-text/html and XML have different rules), error handling, case folding and probably various other things. Consideration of compatibility with existing UAs, in particular deployed IE, which already has some special handling for XML-syntax-in-text/html [2], is also required.

Relevant emails / References

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0039.html
[2] http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=573
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0040.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0046.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0047.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0049.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0050.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0051.html
http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/03/07/Design-By-Attrition

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [mathml svg parsing-main-inforeign]
Related Actions Items:
Related emails:
  1. Re: More on SVG within HTML pages (issue-37 status?) (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-09-08)
  2. Re: More on SVG within HTML pages (issue-37 status?) (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-09-08)
  3. Re: More on SVG within HTML pages (issue-37 status?) (from connolly@w3.org on 2009-09-08)
  4. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from robert@ocallahan.org on 2009-09-01)
  5. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-30)
  6. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from robert@ocallahan.org on 2009-08-30)
  7. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from ian@hixie.ch on 2009-08-30)
  8. {minutes} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-27 (from annevk@opera.com on 2009-08-27)
  9. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-27)
  10. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2009-08-27)
  11. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-08-27)
  12. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from cam@mcc.id.au on 2009-08-27)
  13. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from cam@mcc.id.au on 2009-08-27)
  14. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-27 *PLEASE-READ* (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-08-26)
  15. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-25)
  16. State of HTML WG Unresolved Issues (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-20)
  17. Issues closed (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-20)
  18. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2009-08-20)
  19. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from cam@mcc.id.au on 2009-08-20)
  20. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-19)
  21. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-20 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-08-19)
  22. Re: ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from connolly@w3.org on 2009-08-18)
  23. Old issues - will be closed on 2009-08-20 if there are no objections (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-13)
  24. ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml - suggest closing on 2009-08-20 (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-13)
  25. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-13 (from cooper@w3.org on 2009-08-12)
  26. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-13 (from singer@apple.com on 2009-08-12)
  27. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-13 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-08-12)
  28. More suggested issues to close (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-08-12)
  29. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-03-12 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-03-11)
  30. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-03-12 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2009-03-11)
  31. Re: Input on the agenda (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2009-03-09)
  32. Re: Input on the agenda (from mjs@apple.com on 2009-03-09)
  33. Re: Input on the agenda (from schepers@w3.org on 2009-03-09)
  34. Re: Input on the agenda (from ian@hixie.ch on 2009-03-09)
  35. Re: Input on the agenda (from schepers@w3.org on 2009-03-09)
  36. Input on the agenda (from ian@hixie.ch on 2009-03-09)
  37. Re: Input on the agenda (from connolly@w3.org on 2009-02-23)
  38. Input on the agenda (from ian@hixie.ch on 2009-02-23)
  39. minutes: HTML WG telecon 2009-02-19 [draft] (from julian.reschke@gmx.de on 2009-02-19)
  40. minutes: HTML WG weekly telcon 22 Jan 2009 (from connolly@w3.org on 2009-01-23)
  41. minutes: HTML Weekly Teleconference 15 Jan 2009 (from connolly@w3.org on 2009-01-16)
  42. minutes: HTML Weekly Teleconference 08 Jan 2009 (from connolly@w3.org on 2009-01-16)
  43. {minutes} 2008-10-23 f2f meeting (day one) (from mike@w3.org on 2008-11-07)
  44. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from robin@berjon.com on 2008-09-10)
  45. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-09-04)
  46. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-09-04)
  47. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from svg@manuel-strehl.de on 2008-09-04)
  48. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from julian.reschke@gmx.de on 2008-09-03)
  49. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from annevk@opera.com on 2008-09-03)
  50. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from annevk@opera.com on 2008-09-03)
  51. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from julian.reschke@gmx.de on 2008-09-03)
  52. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from codedread@gmail.com on 2008-09-03)
  53. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from ian@hixie.ch on 2008-09-03)
  54. RE: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from david.dailey@sru.edu on 2008-09-03)
  55. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from annevk@opera.com on 2008-09-03)
  56. RE: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from david.dailey@sru.edu on 2008-09-03)
  57. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-09-03)
  58. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from ed@opera.com on 2008-09-03)
  59. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from forums@david-woolley.me.uk on 2008-08-17)
  60. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from julian.reschke@gmx.de on 2008-08-04)
  61. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-08-04)
  62. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-08-04)
  63. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-08-04)
  64. Re: What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-08-04)
  65. What namespace features popular SVG tools really emit (ISSUE-37) (from hsivonen@iki.fi on 2008-08-04)
  66. {minutes} HTML WG telcon 2008-07-31 (from connolly@w3.org on 2008-07-31)
  67. {minutes} HTML WG telcon 2008-07-24 (from mike@w3.org on 2008-07-31)
  68. Re: SVGWG SVG-in-HTML proposal is also ISSUE-37 (Was: ISSUE-41: Decentralized extensibility) (from chaals@opera.com on 2008-07-30)
  69. Re: ISSUE-37: RE: SVG in HTML proposal (from ed@opera.com on 2008-07-24)
  70. Re: ISSUE-37: RE: SVG in HTML proposal (from cam@mcc.id.au on 2008-07-24)
  71. Re: ISSUE-37: RE: SVG in HTML proposal (from codedread@gmail.com on 2008-07-23)
  72. RE: ISSUE-37: RE: SVG in HTML proposal (from Chris.Wilson@microsoft.com on 2008-07-23)
  73. Re: ISSUE-37: RE: SVG in HTML proposal (from codedread@gmail.com on 2008-07-23)
  74. ISSUE-37: RE: SVG in HTML proposal (from Chris.Wilson@microsoft.com on 2008-07-23)
  75. Re: SVG in HTML proposal (from ed@opera.com on 2008-07-17)
  76. Re: SVG in HTML proposal (from connolly@w3.org on 2008-07-17)
  77. Supporting MathML and SVG in text/html, and related topics (from ian@hixie.ch on 2008-04-10)
  78. {minutes} 2008-04-03 HTML WG telcon (from mike@w3.org on 2008-04-04)
  79. Re: Exploring new vocabularies for HTML (ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml) (from connolly@w3.org on 2008-04-03)
  80. Re: SVG and MathML in text/html (from soypunk@gmail.com on 2008-03-10)
  81. ISSUE-37 (html-svg-mathml): Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html [HTML 5 spec] (from sysbot+tracker@w3.org on 2008-03-10)

Related notes:

2008-03-18 14:00:37: now is as good a time as any to discuss this [Dan Connolly]

2008-04-09 23:22:42: Marking CLOSED since I've now dealt with this; an e-mail with replies to all the feedback on this issue will be sent to the mailing lists shortly. [Ian Hickson]

2008-04-16 14:10:36: "I have removed SVG support from the HTML parser specification as per your
request. (I have left MathML support in the specification.)"
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0407.html [Dan Connolly]

2008-04-16 14:20:03: "I have removed SVG support from the HTML parser specification as per your
request. ... I look forward to your proposals."
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0407.html
[Dan Connolly]

2008-08-28 06:32:51: Ian's review of the SVG WG proposal:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0852.html [Shawn Medero]

2008-10-02 16:22:33: Chaals email about Opera's current (as of 10/2008) thoughts on both proposals didn't get hooked up to this issue:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0000.html [Shawn Medero]

2009-08-12 00:14:13: demoting to raised, no owner [Sam Ruby]

Changelog:

2008-03-10 14:43:52: Created issue 'Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html' nickname html-svg-mathml owned by James Graham on product HTML 5 spec, description 'The defacto language of the existing web is text/html and, as a consequence, many existing backend systems are not suitable for producing XHTML in a reasonably error-proof manner. However the text/html platform is limited in its ability to support some types of content that are of considerable interest to authors and have deployed support in XML-aware UAs. In particular the ability to include inline vector graphics via SVG and inline mathematics via MathML is missing from the text/html platform. Typical use cases for supporting these technologies inside text/html include (taken from [1]): * Converting a typical LaTeX paper to text/html such that everything that wouldn’t get bitmapped in a pdfLaTeX workflow does not get bitmapped. * Writing a similar document into text/html in a text editor copying and pasting the SVG figures from Inkscape XML output. * Making Flash-like visually “high-impact” sites using the openly specified Web platform but without the Draconianness of XML in such a way that the whole thing uses retained-mode graphics and lives in one DOM for easy scripting (i.e. no need for scripts to deal with object or iframe sub-DOMs). * Publishing the kind of content that is published on http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/ using a legacy PHP content management system that is not XML-ready. Reference [1] also details technical requirements that arise if text/html is to address this set of use cases. Sub issues that require consideration include the syntax constraints imposed on the non-HTML subtrees (whether they must match the HTML or XML syntax where html-in-text/html and XML have different rules), error handling, case folding and probably various other things. Consideration of compatibility with existing UAs, in particular deployed IE, which already has some special handling for XML-syntax-in-text/html [2], is also required. Relevant emails / References [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0039.html [2] http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=573 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0040.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0046.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0047.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0049.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0050.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0051.html http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/03/07/Design-By-Attrition ' non-public [James Graham]

2008-03-18 14:00:37: Status changed to 'open' [Dan Connolly]

2008-04-09 23:22:42: Status changed to 'closed'

2008-04-16 14:10:36: Status changed to 'open'

2009-08-12 00:14:13: Owner changed to 'Adrian Bateman' [Sam Ruby]

2009-08-12 00:14:13: Status changed to 'raised' [Sam Ruby]

2009-08-21 01:38:43: Status changed to 'closed' [Maciej Stachowiak]

2009-08-21 01:39:04: Status changed to 'open' [Maciej Stachowiak]

2009-08-21 11:43:44: Description changed to 'The defacto language of the existing web is text/html and, as a consequence, many existing backend systems are not suitable for producing XHTML in a reasonably error-proof manner. However the text/html platform is limited in its ability to support some types of content that are of considerable interest to authors and have deployed support in XML-aware UAs. In particular the ability to include inline vector graphics via SVG and inline mathematics via MathML is missing from the text/html platform. Typical use cases for supporting these technologies inside text/html include (taken from [1]): * Converting a typical LaTeX paper to text/html such that everything that wouldn’t get bitmapped in a pdfLaTeX workflow does not get bitmapped. * Writing a similar document into text/html in a text editor copying and pasting the SVG figures from Inkscape XML output. * Making Flash-like visually “high-impact” sites using the openly specified Web platform but without the Draconianness of XML in such a way that the whole thing uses retained-mode graphics and lives in one DOM for easy scripting (i.e. no need for scripts to deal with object or iframe sub-DOMs). * Publishing the kind of content that is published on http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/ using a legacy PHP content management system that is not XML-ready. Reference [1] also details technical requirements that arise if text/html is to address this set of use cases. Sub issues that require consideration include the syntax constraints imposed on the non-HTML subtrees (whether they must match the HTML or XML syntax where html-in-text/html and XML have different rules), error handling, case folding and probably various other things. Consideration of compatibility with existing UAs, in particular deployed IE, which already has some special handling for XML-syntax-in-text/html [2], is also required. Relevant emails / References [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0039.html [2] http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=573 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0040.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0046.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0047.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0049.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0050.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0051.html http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/03/07/Design-By-Attrition HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [mathml svg parsing-main-inforeign]' [James Graham]

2009-08-27 19:05:08: Status changed to 'pending review' [Sam Ruby]

2009-11-19 17:12:13: Status changed to 'closed' [Maciej Stachowiak]

Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Chairs, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Michael(tm) Smith <mike@w3.org>, Staff Contacts
Tracker, originally developed by Dean Jackson, is developed and maintained by the Systems Team <w3t-sys@w3.org>.
$Id: index.php,v 1.231 2009/11/16 15:00:54 dom Exp $