eGovernment Interest Group

Minutes of 02 November 2010

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010
Present
Sandro Hawke
Guests
Karen Myers (W3C), Jeni Tennison (TSO), Daniel Dardailler (W3C), Roger Cutler (Chevron), Phil Archer (W3C and Talis), Martin Alvarez (CTIC), Thomas Bandholtz, Antonio Cangiano (SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)), Jose Leocadio (SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)), Yosuke Funahashi (Tomo-Digi Corporation), Vagner Diniz (NIC.br), Karen Burns (New Zealand State Services Commission), Tim Berners-Lee (W3C), Robin Berjon, Fabien Gandon (INRIA)
Chair
Sandro Hawke
Scribe
Phil Archer (W3C and Talis), Sandro Hawke, Jeni Tennison (TSO), Fabien Gandon (INRIA)
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
<sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010
<sandro> Chair: Sandro
<sandro> Present: Sandro
<sandro> Guest: Karen (karen) Myers, http://www.w3.org/People/domain?domain=Communications#karen%40w3.org, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Jeni Tennison, TSO
<sandro> Guest: Daniel (dd) Dardailler, http://www.w3.org/People/danield/, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Roger Cutler, Chevron
<sandro> Guest: Phil Archer, W3C and Talis
<sandro> Guest: Martin Alvarez, CTIC
<sandro> Guest: Thomas Bandholtz
<sandro> Guest: Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)
<sandro> Guest: Jose Leocadio, SERPRO (Brazilian Federal Agency of Information Technology)
<sandro> Guest: Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation
<sandro> Guest: Vagner (Vagner-br) Diniz, NIC.br
<sandro> Guest: Karen Burns, New Zealand State Services Commission
<sandro> Guest: Tim (TimBL) Berners-Lee, W3C
<sandro> Guest: Robin (darobin) Berjon
<sandro> Guest: Fabien Gandon, INRIA
<sandro> Topic: Morning Introductions

1. Morning Introductions

08:00:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc

08:01:13 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public'

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public'

08:01:14 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public

Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public

08:01:20 <sandro> People in room, in order:

Sandro Hawke: People in room, in order:

08:01:20 <sandro> Karen Myers

Sandro Hawke: Karen Myers

08:01:20 <sandro> Sandro Hawke

Sandro Hawke: Sandro Hawke

08:01:20 <sandro> Jeni Tennison

Sandro Hawke: Jeni Tennison

08:01:20 <sandro> Daniel Dardailler

Sandro Hawke: Daniel Dardailler

08:01:21 <sandro> Roger Cutler

Sandro Hawke: Roger Cutler

08:01:23 <sandro> Phil Archer, W3T + Talis

Sandro Hawke: Phil Archer, W3T + Talis

08:01:27 <sandro> Martín Álvarez, Fundación CTIC

Sandro Hawke: Martín Álvarez, Fundación CTIC

08:01:29 <sandro> Thomas Bandholtz  Germany  -- LD Environrment Data

Sandro Hawke: Thomas Bandholtz Germany -- LD Environrment Data

08:01:31 <sandro> Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO

Sandro Hawke: Antonio Sergio Cangiano, SERPRO

08:01:33 <sandro> Jose Leocadio, SERPRO

Sandro Hawke: Jose Leocadio, SERPRO

08:01:35 <sandro> Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation

Sandro Hawke: Yosuke Funahashi, Tomo-Digi Corporation

08:01:37 <sandro> Vagner Diniz

Sandro Hawke: Vagner Diniz

08:01:39 <sandro> Karen Burns

Sandro Hawke: Karen Burns

08:03:30 <PhilA> scribe: PhilA

(Scribe set to Phil Archer)

08:03:35 <PhilA> scribeNick:PhilA
<sandro> Topic: eGov Education and Outreach

2. eGov Education and Outreach

08:03:39 <karen> Daniel: Are we going to talk about the creation of a task force to look at education and outreach?

Daniel Dardailler: Are we going to talk about the creation of a task force to look at education and outreach? [ Scribe Assist by Karen Myers ]

08:03:55 <PhilA> DD: Raises issue of non-tech education & outreach

Daniel Dardailler: Raises issue of non-tech education & outreach

08:04:04 <PhilA> .. (as possible agenda item later)

.. (as possible agenda item later)

08:04:33 <PhilA> Karen: 1.5 yrs ago we had an active task force

Karen Myers: 1.5 yrs ago we had an active task force

08:04:40 <PhilA> .. comm team etc. planning lots of stuff

.. comm team etc. planning lots of stuff

08:04:59 <PhilA> .. then there was a shift in priorities, and Josema left. It was very effective when we were doing it

.. then there was a shift in priorities, and Josema left. It was very effective when we were doing it

08:05:27 <PhilA> .. I have a personal interest. We have some support from our PR firm that has a knowledge base in this area.

.. I have a personal interest. We have some support from our PR firm that has a knowledge base in this area.

08:05:37 <PhilA> .. but it's US-based. Need a more global view

.. but it's US-based. Need a more global view

08:06:03 <PhilA> DD: There is funding from the EU to help PSI

Daniel Dardailler: There is funding from the EU to help PSI

08:06:11 <PhilA> Karen: I like the idea of a TF.

Karen Myers: I like the idea of a TF.

08:06:31 <PhilA> .. if there's a need for an IG just looking at that, all well and good

.. if there's a need for an IG just looking at that, all well and good

08:06:40 <PhilA> DD: we could spin off other groups from the IG

Daniel Dardailler: we could spin off other groups from the IG

08:07:08 <PhilA> Karen: We need high level messages - what is open data, what is Linked data etc.

Karen Myers: We need high level messages - what is open data, what is Linked data etc.

08:07:17 <PhilA> PhilA: Talis is interested in this ;-)

Phil Archer: Talis is interested in this ;-)

08:07:29 <PhilA> Sandro: Others?

Sandro Hawke: Others?

08:07:46 <PhilA> Interest in the room from New Zealand, Brazil and more

Interest in the room from New Zealand, Brazil and more

08:08:02 <sandro> Karen B, Vagner

Sandro Hawke: Karen B, Vagner

08:08:05 <karen> Vagner Diniz, Karen Burns

Karen Myers: Vagner Diniz, Karen Burns

08:09:16 <PhilA> action: Daniel D to set up task Force on EO

ACTION: Daniel D to set up task Force on EO

08:09:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - D to set up task Force on EO [on Daniel Bennett - due 2010-11-09].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-118 - D to set up task Force on EO [on Daniel Bennett - due 2010-11-09].

08:10:14 <PhilA> Topic: Linked data at data.gov.uk

3. Linked data at data.gov.uk

08:10:25 <PhilA> Jeni: Takes the floor...

Jeni Tennison: Takes the floor...

08:10:40 <PhilA> .. shows data.gov.uk Web Site

.. shows data.gov.uk Web Site

08:10:59 <sandro> ACTION-118 is really on Daniel Dardailler not Daniel Bennett.

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-118 is really on Daniel Dardailler not Daniel Bennett.

08:11:03 <PhilA> (http://data.gov.uk)

(http://data.gov.uk)

08:11:31 <PhilA> Jeni: Most data is in CSV or XML. Some, but not much, LD

Jeni Tennison: Most data is in CSV or XML. Some, but not much, LD

08:11:54 <PhilA> .. explains the term 'organogram' to mean org chart, organisational info etc.

.. explains the term 'organogram' to mean org chart, organisational info etc.

08:12:26 <PhilA> .. an edict from gov said that all departments should publish their organograms on data.gov.uk, and it specified what info had to be included

.. an edict from gov said that all departments should publish their organograms on data.gov.uk, and it specified what info had to be included

08:12:38 <PhilA> .. about 62 on d.g.u now

.. about 62 on d.g.u now

08:13:04 <PhilA> .. majority published a PDF of their organisational structure

.. majority published a PDF of their organisational structure

08:13:28 <PhilA> .. pretty pictures with tables that don't help a lot as there's no data to pull out

.. pretty pictures with tables that don't help a lot as there's no data to pull out

08:13:45 <PhilA> rrsagent, make logs public

rrsagent, make logs public

08:14:10 <PhilA> Jeni: some of the org charts use headings defined centrally

Jeni Tennison: some of the org charts use headings defined centrally

08:14:16 <PhilA> .. some published as Power Point

.. some published as Power Point

08:14:27 <PhilA> .. senior post data includes reporting structures

.. senior post data includes reporting structures

08:14:32 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

08:14:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

08:15:02 <PhilA> Jeni: shows a CSV file

Jeni Tennison: shows a CSV file

08:15:24 <PhilA> .. talks about 'Gridworks', now renamed 'Google Refine'

.. talks about 'Gridworks', now renamed 'Google Refine'

08:15:45 <PhilA> .. see http://code.google.com/p/google-refine/

.. see http://code.google.com/p/google-refine/

08:15:51 <PhilA> Roger C: That's cool!

Roger C: That's cool!

08:15:56 <PhilA> Jeni: yes it is!

Jeni Tennison: yes it is!

08:16:13 <PhilA> .. important tool for cleaning up data

.. important tool for cleaning up data

08:16:23 <PhilA> .. sometehing that non-specialists can use

.. sometehing that non-specialists can use

08:16:37 <PhilA> .. Demos Google Refine

.. Demos Google Refine

08:16:55 <PhilA> .. You can see the facets for a column, edit values that have gone wrong, edit column names

.. You can see the facets for a column, edit values that have gone wrong, edit column names

08:17:46 <PhilA> .. the key point is that civil servants can use this tool

.. the key point is that civil servants can use this tool

08:18:05 <PhilA> .. we have gone round training a bunch of civil servants. Lots of good feedback. People have begun using it

.. we have gone round training a bunch of civil servants. Lots of good feedback. People have begun using it

08:18:32 <PhilA> .. extremely nice features around reconciling data around already published data

.. extremely nice features around reconciling data around already published data

08:18:57 <PhilA> .. you can ask the tool to reconcile a column

.. you can ask the tool to reconcile a column

08:19:15 <sandro> gridworks "reconcile" to link to web data.  nice!

Sandro Hawke: gridworks "reconcile" to link to web data. nice!

08:19:17 <PhilA> .. turns strings into links (if it finds relevant data)

.. turns strings into links (if it finds relevant data)

08:19:41 <PhilA> Jeni: You can do a bit of manual work to produce clean RDF without actually handling RDF (knowlingly)

Jeni Tennison: You can do a bit of manual work to produce clean RDF without actually handling RDF (knowlingly)

08:19:45 <PhilA> .. you can apply scripts

.. you can apply scripts

08:19:56 <PhilA> .. shows adding a column for, in this case, provenance

.. shows adding a column for, in this case, provenance

08:20:08 <PhilA> .. data.gov.uk tries to keep track of where we get data from

.. data.gov.uk tries to keep track of where we get data from

08:21:14 <PhilA> .. and if I open up a script (in this case, a bit of JSON). Paste that in and apply those instructions - it will perform various tasks, creating extra columns etc.

.. and if I open up a script (in this case, a bit of JSON). Paste that in and apply those instructions - it will perform various tasks, creating extra columns etc.

08:21:25 <PhilA> .. my script adds in lots of URIs in this case

.. my script adds in lots of URIs in this case

08:21:34 <PhilA> .. (URIs central to linked data)

.. (URIs central to linked data)

08:22:15 <PhilA> .. DERI has created a plug in that describes the data

.. DERI has created a plug in that describes the data

08:22:40 <PhilA> .. now can export the data as turtle or RDF/XML

.. now can export the data as turtle or RDF/XML

08:22:58 <PhilA> (Shows RDF generated from the CSV)

(Shows RDF generated from the CSV)

08:23:23 <PhilA> Jeni: You can see the different posts within 'BIS' (Department of Business Innovation and Skills)

Jeni Tennison: You can see the different posts within 'BIS' (Department of Business Innovation and Skills)

08:23:37 <PhilA> .. we run several stores, mostly hosted by Talis

.. we run several stores, mostly hosted by Talis

08:23:39 <sandro> (I wonder if there's a way to simplify that script application process....)

Sandro Hawke: (I wonder if there's a way to simplify that script application process....)

08:23:53 <PhilA> .. they bring together data sets for, say, transport

.. they bring together data sets for, say, transport

08:23:58 <PhilA> .. then one on education and so on

.. then one on education and so on

08:24:06 <PhilA> .. organogram data is "reference data"

.. organogram data is "reference data"

08:24:17 <PhilA> i.e. http://reference.data.gov.uk

i.e. http://reference.data.gov.uk

08:24:49 <PhilA> (Shows SPARQL queries against BIS organogram data). Live. No safety net

(Shows SPARQL queries against BIS organogram data). Live. No safety net

08:25:09 <PhilA> Voila! Some results

Voila! Some results

08:25:38 <PhilA> Jeni: Most people, including developers, don't react well to being asked to write SPARQL queries

Jeni Tennison: Most people, including developers, don't react well to being asked to write SPARQL queries

08:25:56 <PhilA> .. so we have added a layer on top of the SPARQL to provide a simpler API

.. so we have added a layer on top of the SPARQL to provide a simpler API

08:26:06 <PhilA> .. I'll show you the basic Linked data API first of all

.. I'll show you the basic Linked data API first of all

08:27:31 <PhilA> http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/bis

http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/bis

08:27:42 <PhilA> Shows how this gives a 303 to http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis

Shows how this gives a 303 to http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis

08:27:56 <PhilA> demos exploring the data

demos exploring the data

08:28:21 <karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+

08:28:49 <PhilA> ack ka

ack ka

08:28:56 <PhilA> Karen: This is fabulous

Karen Myers: This is fabulous

08:29:05 <PhilA> .. practical question - who is updating the data?

.. practical question - who is updating the data?

08:29:33 <PhilA> Jeni: the generic answer is "how long is a piece of string". Some data changes daily, some changes much less frequently

Jeni Tennison: the generic answer is "how long is a piece of string". Some data changes daily, some changes much less frequently

08:29:58 <PhilA> .. for organogram work, the stipulation was that data should be valid on 30/6/10 and should be updated every 6 months

.. for organogram work, the stipulation was that data should be valid on 30/6/10 and should be updated every 6 months

08:30:08 <PhilA> Karen: How did the departments react?

Karen Myers: How did the departments react?

08:30:22 <PhilA> Jeni: It was hard. it took a big stick from the Cabinet office to get it done

Jeni Tennison: It was hard. it took a big stick from the Cabinet office to get it done

08:30:37 <PhilA> Jeni: Most departmetns have generated just a PDF or a POwer Point

Jeni Tennison: Most departmetns have generated just a PDF or a POwer Point

08:30:48 <PhilA> .. some generated a CSV (prob by HR with help from IT dept)

.. some generated a CSV (prob by HR with help from IT dept)

08:31:06 <PhilA> .. generation of RDF was done by me (x 6). One dept has done it themselves

.. generation of RDF was done by me (x 6). One dept has done it themselves

08:31:16 <PhilA> Karen: And they can navigate this UI?

Karen Myers: And they can navigate this UI?

08:31:41 <PhilA> Jeni: This UI is designed to show them the benefit of doing it as LD. Shwoing that people can navigate around the data

Jeni Tennison: This UI is designed to show them the benefit of doing it as LD. Shwoing that people can navigate around the data

08:31:49 <PhilA> .. you can see the different sources of the data

.. you can see the different sources of the data

08:32:02 <PhilA> Sandro: Is everyone's salary info public by law?

Sandro Hawke: Is everyone's salary info public by law?

08:32:15 <PhilA> Jeni: Top civil servants - although it's not by law, it's the culture

Jeni Tennison: Top civil servants - although it's not by law, it's the culture

08:32:40 <PhilA> Roger: Who wants to do this and why?

Roger Cutler: Who wants to do this and why?

08:33:01 <PhilA> Jeni: WE have a strong developer community in the UK. They want to get hold of gov data, package it and so on

Jeni Tennison: WE have a strong developer community in the UK. They want to get hold of gov data, package it and so on

08:33:22 <PhilA> .. they usually want to pursue this for lobbying or political ends

.. they usually want to pursue this for lobbying or political ends

08:33:45 <PhilA> Jeni: person X is claiming ABC on their expenses, is this right?

Jeni Tennison: person X is claiming ABC on their expenses, is this right?

08:34:14 <PhilA> .. personally I don't find that the most interesting data that governments can put out but it is where the current political drive is in the UK

.. personally I don't find that the most interesting data that governments can put out but it is where the current political drive is in the UK

08:34:22 <PhilA> Karen: it is tangible though

Karen Myers: it is tangible though

08:34:34 <PhilA> Jeni: School performance is something that people can relate to as well

Jeni Tennison: School performance is something that people can relate to as well

08:35:15 <PhilA> Jeni: completes demo

Jeni Tennison: completes demo

08:35:37 <PhilA> .. this helps people explore the data and find out where the data came from

.. this helps people explore the data and find out where the data came from

08:36:34 <sandro> exploring http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis

Sandro Hawke: exploring http://reference.data.gov.uk/doc/department/bis

08:36:40 <PhilA> .. shows XML data, or JSON data - the interface allows you to access the data in various formats. Just add .xml or .json to the URI. That's what the Linked data API is about

.. shows XML data, or JSON data - the interface allows you to access the data in various formats. Just add .xml or .json to the URI. That's what the Linked data API is about

08:37:16 <PhilA> Jeni: So much for the data, available as an explorer and as data for developers. But it's not especially pretty

Jeni Tennison: So much for the data, available as an explorer and as data for developers. But it's not especially pretty

08:37:25 <PhilA> Jeni: so let's see if we can find a pretty output

Jeni Tennison: so let's see if we can find a pretty output

08:37:39 <PhilA> Demos BIS organogram visualisation

Demos BIS organogram visualisation

08:38:12 <PhilA> http://danpaulsmith.com/gov/orgvis/?dept=bis

http://danpaulsmith.com/gov/orgvis/?dept=bis

08:38:51 <PhilA> Sandro: Does it go all the way ip to the prime minister?

Sandro Hawke: Does it go all the way ip to the prime minister?

08:39:17 <sandro> sandro: if you want to get on this giant org chart, give us your RDF

Sandro Hawke: if you want to get on this giant org chart, give us your RDF [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:39:24 <PhilA> Jeni: Not yet, but that would be cool, especially if it came out of all the different data sets created by different departments. The overall org chart comes out of its component parts - if you use linked data

Jeni Tennison: Not yet, but that would be cool, especially if it came out of all the different data sets created by different departments. The overall org chart comes out of its component parts - if you use linked data

08:39:45 <PhilA> Jeni: Getting to an end to end story like this has taken several months

Jeni Tennison: Getting to an end to end story like this has taken several months

08:40:04 <PhilA> .. we had to work out what URIs should look like for different departments. This is a department within a department, a unit etc.

.. we had to work out what URIs should look like for different departments. This is a department within a department, a unit etc.

08:40:28 <PhilA> .. we had to create some vocabularies for organisational structures generally and then specifically for UK

.. we had to create some vocabularies for organisational structures generally and then specifically for UK

08:40:35 <PhilA> .. provenance data is very important

.. provenance data is very important

08:40:58 <PhilA> .. statistics around salary costs - needed a vocabulary for talking about statistical dta

.. statistics around salary costs - needed a vocabulary for talking about statistical dta

08:41:17 <PhilA> .. and those fundamental design choices etc. had to be done to support the kind of end to end story we've been looking at here

.. and those fundamental design choices etc. had to be done to support the kind of end to end story we've been looking at here

08:41:36 <karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+

08:41:40 <PhilA> Sandro: Those vocabularies sound like candidates for standardisation

Sandro Hawke: Those vocabularies sound like candidates for standardisation

08:42:38 <PhilA> Roger: AIUI you started by defining standardised things. In the tool you had a reconciliation step that knew what to do with the data. So it must have been pretty close for automated reconciliation

Roger Cutler: AIUI you started by defining standardised things. In the tool you had a reconciliation step that knew what to do with the data. So it must have been pretty close for automated reconciliation

08:42:44 <PhilA> .. what does that depend on?

.. what does that depend on?

08:43:21 <PhilA> Jeni: Gridworks takes the values that it finds in the column. Takes a sample, sends it to a reconciliation service - an API for this kind of thing

Jeni Tennison: Gridworks takes the values that it finds in the column. Takes a sample, sends it to a reconciliation service - an API for this kind of thing

08:43:47 <PhilA> .. the Rec service looks at the values, looks at the data it has, and works out what it looks like and what vocab is appropriate

.. the Rec service looks at the values, looks at the data it has, and works out what it looks like and what vocab is appropriate

08:43:50 <sandro> sandro: I've put those vocabularies, as best I understood, into the GLD WG Work Items list, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items

Sandro Hawke: I've put those vocabularies, as best I understood, into the GLD WG Work Items list, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:45:38 <PhilA> .. recognising "John Smith" as a name cf. "Smith, John" is something the reconciliation service does. Leigh Dodds (Talis) created a good example of this

.. recognising "John Smith" as a name cf. "Smith, John" is something the reconciliation service does. Leigh Dodds (Talis) created a good example of this

08:46:08 <PhilA> See http://www.ldodds.com/blog/2010/08/gridworks-reconciliation-api-implementation/

See http://www.ldodds.com/blog/2010/08/gridworks-reconciliation-api-implementation/

08:46:48 <PhilA> Further discussion on how this works between Roger, Jeni and Sandro

Further discussion on how this works between Roger, Jeni and Sandro

08:47:11 <PhilA> Roger: How does a salaray get recognised as a salary

Roger Cutler: How does a salaray get recognised as a salary

08:47:17 <PhilA> Jeni: That's in the RDF schema

Jeni Tennison: That's in the RDF schema

08:47:24 <sandro> sandro: so reconciliation takes strings which are intended to be identifiers and turns them into proper URI identifiers

Sandro Hawke: so reconciliation takes strings which are intended to be identifiers and turns them into proper URI identifiers [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

08:47:32 <PhilA> .. and we can use the CSV column name as the hook

.. and we can use the CSV column name as the hook

08:47:49 <PhilA> Roger: so "salary" might match and "sal" won't

Roger Cutler: so "salary" might match and "sal" won't

08:47:51 <PhilA> Jeni: yes

Jeni Tennison: yes

08:48:07 <PhilA> Roger: So there's a certain amount of fixing up of "user data"

Roger Cutler: So there's a certain amount of fixing up of "user data"

08:48:08 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

08:48:09 <PhilA> ack kar

ack kar

08:48:24 <PhilA> karen: What is the UK gov policy towards the APIs?

Karen Myers: What is the UK gov policy towards the APIs?

08:49:26 <PhilA> jeni: The Linked data API is on Google Code and anyone can use it http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/

Jeni Tennison: The Linked data API is on Google Code and anyone can use it http://code.google.com/p/linked-data-api/

08:50:09 <PhilA> Talis implementation in PHP http://code.google.com/p/puelia-php/

Talis implementation in PHP http://code.google.com/p/puelia-php/

08:50:39 <PhilA> Karen: Are you shouting about this?

Karen Myers: Are you shouting about this?

08:50:42 <PhilA> Jeni: yes

Jeni Tennison: yes

08:51:06 <PhilA> Sandro: The Linked data API work was presented at various meetings

Sandro Hawke: The Linked data API work was presented at various meetings

08:51:20 <PhilA> karen: so it needs more outreach

Karen Myers: so it needs more outreach

08:51:33 <PhilA> Roger: I'd like to hear more about how politicians talk about this?

Roger Cutler: I'd like to hear more about how politicians talk about this?

08:51:41 <PhilA> Jeni: Gordon brown got it and understood it

Jeni Tennison: Gordon brown got it and understood it

08:52:02 <sandro> It's a possible item for GLD WG: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items#Developer-Friendly_API_and_Serialization

Sandro Hawke: It's a possible item for GLD WG: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items#Developer-Friendly_API_and_Serialization

08:52:43 <PhilA> .. current government see it as part of the transparency agenda. Making data available in a machine readable format

.. current government see it as part of the transparency agenda. Making data available in a machine readable format

08:59:45 <PhilA> Roger: Made the point that organisational capability, software support etc. is really important for commercial companies etc.

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Roger Cutler: Made the point that organisational capability, software support etc. is really important for commercial companies etc.

08:59:54 <PhilA> Vagner; Jeni talks about visualisation

Vagner; Jeni talks about visualisation

09:00:09 <PhilA> .. has W3C done any work on visualisation?

.. has W3C done any work on visualisation?

09:00:20 <PhilA> Sandro; beyond CSS and SVG, I'm not aware of any

Sandro; beyond CSS and SVG, I'm not aware of any

09:00:37 <PhilA> Vagner: You added this item on the WG. I wonder if it's something we need to discuss?

Vagner Diniz: You added this item on the WG. I wonder if it's something we need to discuss?

09:00:57 <PhilA> Sandro: That's coming out of the data.gov.uk work but I don't know any more detail

Sandro Hawke: That's coming out of the data.gov.uk work but I don't know any more detail

09:02:53 <PhilA> PhilA: I think an RDF-SVG link would be cool

Phil Archer: I think an RDF-SVG link would be cool

09:03:21 <PhilA> Fabien: Talks about an existing effort to link CSS, SPARQL and more

Fabien Gandon: Talks about an existing effort to link CSS, SPARQL and more

09:03:45 <PhilA> Topic: Open data initiatives in Spain

4. Open data initiatives in Spain

09:04:08 <PhilA> Martin: Shows map drawn in SVG, lots of tables in RDF so we're already linking RDf and SVG

Martin Alvarez: Shows map drawn in SVG, lots of tables in RDF so we're already linking RDf and SVG

09:04:16 <PhilA> Sandro: What's the linkage?

Sandro Hawke: What's the linkage?

09:04:25 <PhilA> Martin: I think it's Java

Martin Alvarez: I think it's Java

09:04:32 <PhilA> Martin: begins talk

Martin Alvarez: begins talk

09:04:42 <FabGandon> http://www.cytoscape.org/ Cytoscape combines SPARQL CONSTRUCT with a graph interface to allow the user to select and render RDF data

Fabien Gandon: http://www.cytoscape.org/ Cytoscape combines SPARQL CONSTRUCT with a graph interface to allow the user to select and render RDF data

09:05:21 <PhilA> Martin: Open Data act 2007

Martin Alvarez: Open Data act 2007

09:05:53 <PhilA> .. aim to create catalogue of open gov data

.. aim to create catalogue of open gov data

09:06:05 <FabGandon> more precisely the S*QL plugin for cytoscape http://semtech2010.semanticuniverse.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=42&proposalid=2932

Fabien Gandon: more precisely the S*QL plugin for cytoscape http://semtech2010.semanticuniverse.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=42&proposalid=2932

09:06:26 <PhilA> .. 3 regional governments (Asturias) Basque and Catalonia

.. 3 regional governments (Asturias) Basque and Catalonia

09:06:50 <PhilA> Shows Asturias catalogue

Shows Asturias catalogue

09:06:58 <PhilA> Martin: only 4 data sets but all linked

Martin Alvarez: only 4 data sets but all linked

09:07:36 <PhilA> .. uses things like the organisation vocab, iCal etc.

.. uses things like the organisation vocab, iCal etc.

09:07:49 <PhilA> .. project is 100% linked data, hosted on our own Oracle triple store

.. project is 100% linked data, hosted on our own Oracle triple store

09:08:16 <PhilA> .. we've added some Jena modules (and our own) to create SPARQL endpoints etc.

.. we've added some Jena modules (and our own) to create SPARQL endpoints etc.

09:08:27 <PhilA> .. metadata modelled using VoID

.. metadata modelled using VoID

09:08:41 <PhilA> .. HTML view generated dynamically

.. HTML view generated dynamically

09:09:19 <PhilA> .. Basque country is similar but is focussed on raw data. They have some RDF links but they're static files to describe the data sets

.. Basque country is similar but is focussed on raw data. They have some RDF links but they're static files to describe the data sets

09:09:30 <PhilA> .. more than 1,000 data sets in raw formats

.. more than 1,000 data sets in raw formats

09:09:37 <PhilA> .. useful info for citizens anda industry

.. useful info for citizens anda industry

09:10:05 <PhilA> .. translation memories (Euskara -> Espanol etc.)

.. translation memories (Euskara -> Espanol etc.)

09:10:18 <PhilA> .. Catalonia is a new one

.. Catalonia is a new one

09:10:33 <PhilA> .. this will be similar to Basque country initiative

.. this will be similar to Basque country initiative

09:10:42 <PhilA> .. most data will be in raw formats (CSV, XML etc.)

.. most data will be in raw formats (CSV, XML etc.)

09:10:47 <PhilA> .. they will provide some info in RDf

.. they will provide some info in RDf

09:11:01 <PhilA> .. as well as RDF static files

.. as well as RDF static files

09:11:15 <PhilA> .. we're also creating a catalogue using DCAT

.. we're also creating a catalogue using DCAT

09:11:33 <PhilA> .. See http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat

.. See http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat

09:11:41 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

09:11:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

09:11:44 <FabGandon> S*QL plugin for Cytoscape presentation here https://connect.umms.med.umich.edu/p79605689/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

Fabien Gandon: S*QL plugin for Cytoscape presentation here https://connect.umms.med.umich.edu/p79605689/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

09:12:12 <PhilA> Martin: they will present > 26K vCards in RDF, describing public centres, using linked data approach

Martin Alvarez: they will present > 26K vCards in RDF, describing public centres, using linked data approach

09:12:59 <PhilA> .. as well as the regional governmetns we also have Zaragossa, Gijon and Barcelona as cities in the project

.. as well as the regional governmetns we also have Zaragossa, Gijon and Barcelona as cities in the project

09:13:04 <PhilA> .. hope to have more info next month

.. hope to have more info next month

09:13:18 <PhilA> s/Zaragossa/Saragossa/

s/Zaragossa/Saragossa/

09:13:38 <PhilA> .. Saragoss will be using linked data. Should be first city to adopt this

.. Saragoss will be using linked data. Should be first city to adopt this

09:13:44 <PhilA> .. they're also using DCAT

.. they're also using DCAT

09:14:06 <PhilA> .. Gijon is a simple project

.. Gijon is a simple project

09:14:26 <PhilA> .. adapting a CMS to provide RDF content representations in parallel byt adding RDFa to pages

.. adapting a CMS to provide RDF content representations in parallel byt adding RDFa to pages

09:14:45 <PhilA> .. we conclude that most governmetns are interested in publishing many data sets quickly

.. we conclude that most governmetns are interested in publishing many data sets quickly

09:14:54 <PhilA> .. they want to release the data 'now'

.. they want to release the data 'now'

09:15:00 <PhilA> .. they want good headlines

.. they want good headlines

09:15:18 <PhilA> .. they are neutral on idea of linked data

.. they are neutral on idea of linked data

09:15:38 <PhilA> .. they 'know' that semantic modelling is hard and they don't want to spend more time and money on it

.. they 'know' that semantic modelling is hard and they don't want to spend more time and money on it

09:15:48 <PhilA> .. for us it's easy to create examples. It's not so easy for the developers

.. for us it's easy to create examples. It's not so easy for the developers

09:15:58 <PhilA> .. maybe we need more examples like the Linked data API to help

.. maybe we need more examples like the Linked data API to help

09:16:15 <PhilA> .. this would help to help to foster the use of the linked data info

.. this would help to help to foster the use of the linked data info

09:17:05 <PhilA> Jeni: It is the case that making data useable and reusable is hard. Linked data is no harder. It's making the data clean that's hard.

Jeni Tennison: It is the case that making data useable and reusable is hard. Linked data is no harder. It's making the data clean that's hard.

09:17:19 <sandro> jeni: Making data reusable is hard (not semantics, per se)

Jeni Tennison: Making data reusable is hard (not semantics, per se) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

09:17:33 <karen> q+

Karen Myers: q+

09:17:33 <PhilA> Martin: we are trying to convince them using these examples. we gather their spreadsheets and show the linked data examples

Martin Alvarez: we are trying to convince them using these examples. we gather their spreadsheets and show the linked data examples

09:18:13 <PhilA> ack kar

ack kar

09:18:28 <martin> Example of linked data representation http://datos.fundacionctic.org/sandbox/ineasturias/viviendas.do

Martin Alvarez: Example of linked data representation http://datos.fundacionctic.org/sandbox/ineasturias/viviendas.do

09:18:31 <PhilA> Karen: Can you say a little more about the time and money. What levels of government are you working with?

Karen Myers: Can you say a little more about the time and money. What levels of government are you working with?

09:19:12 <PhilA> Martin: The best example is Catalonia. They called us 15 days ago and said they wanted to have an open data site within a month. Can you help?

Martin Alvarez: The best example is Catalonia. They called us 15 days ago and said they wanted to have an open data site within a month. Can you help?

09:19:20 <PhilA> .. speed was major concern

.. speed was major concern

09:19:33 <PhilA> .. get the data we have out there

.. get the data we have out there

09:20:09 <PhilA> .. they are convinced that linked data is a good solution, they want to follow it, but they prefer spending their resources in developing open data site, specifying the licence

.. they are convinced that linked data is a good solution, they want to follow it, but they prefer spending their resources in developing open data site, specifying the licence

09:20:17 <PhilA> .. LD comes later?

.. LD comes later?

09:20:22 <PhilA> Karen: So who called you?

Karen Myers: So who called you?

09:20:53 <PhilA> Martin: Not an IT person. More close to the citizenry

Martin Alvarez: Not an IT person. More close to the citizenry

09:21:04 <PhilA> .. not sure of actual department

.. not sure of actual department

09:21:17 <PhilA> .. some are closer to the IT departments

.. some are closer to the IT departments

09:21:23 <PhilA> Sandro: What was their motivation

Sandro Hawke: What was their motivation

09:21:32 <PhilA> Martin: They know about linked data because we told them about it

Martin Alvarez: They know about linked data because we told them about it

09:21:46 <PhilA> .. most of them haven't heard about LD before

.. most of them haven't heard about LD before

09:22:05 <PhilA> .. they know open data initiatives, not linked data

.. they know open data initiatives, not linked data

09:22:14 <PhilA> ..we managed to convince them ;-)

..we managed to convince them ;-)

09:22:39 <PhilA> Sandro: Any other questions?

Sandro Hawke: Any other questions?

09:22:46 <PhilA> .. then we'll take our break now

.. then we'll take our break now

09:23:01 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

09:23:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

09:23:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/TPAC_2010

09:58:43 <FabGandon>  Datalift: http://datalift.org

(No events recorded for 35 minutes)

Fabien Gandon: Datalift: http://datalift.org

10:06:03 <sandro> topic: Fabien Gandon on France's DataLift Project

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

5. Fabien Gandon on France's DataLift Project

<sandro> scribe: sandro

(Scribe set to Sandro Hawke)

10:06:53 <sandro> fabien: I'm not speaking for all of France!    This is just one accepted project.     Accpted in june, kickoff was at end of September.

Fabien Gandon: I'm not speaking for all of France! This is just one accepted project. Accpted in june, kickoff was at end of September.

10:07:11 <sandro> ... Not a lot to show yet, but now is a good time to give us feedback.

... Not a lot to show yet, but now is a good time to give us feedback.

10:07:49 <sandro> ... Last year at ISWC we had a meetup, and discussed the lack of data.gov project in France

... Last year at ISWC we had a meetup, and discussed the lack of data.gov project in France

10:08:23 <sandro> ... We considered a prototype in Talis; first question --- where will the data physically be stored?  In the UK or France?

... We considered a prototype in Talis; first question --- where will the data physically be stored? In the UK or France?

10:08:32 <sandro> ... considered cloud in Europe

... considered cloud in Europe

10:08:48 <sandro> ... datalift == lifting from raw data to rdf in France

... datalift == lifting from raw data to rdf in France

10:09:31 <sandro> ...Atos Origin will be integrator, building an open source integrated platform.    As side effect they'll be ready to offer services

...Atos Origin will be integrator, building an open source integrated platform. As side effect they'll be ready to offer services

10:09:50 <sandro> ... Mondeca is a KR firm in Paris, doing industrial knowledge modeling

... Mondeca is a KR firm in Paris, doing industrial knowledge modeling

10:10:41 <sandro> ... Academics: INRIA at Grenoble (aligning schemas), Eurocom, Lirmm (the guy from INRIA got promoted there).

... Academics: INRIA at Grenoble (aligning schemas), Eurocom, Lirmm (the guy from INRIA got promoted there).

10:10:59 <sandro> ... I'll be using DataLift as a scenario for pushing Named Graphs

... I'll be using DataLift as a scenario for pushing Named Graphs

10:11:21 <sandro> ... INSEE has all the national statistics for France, IGN has all the maps

... INSEE has all the national statistics for France, IGN has all the maps

10:11:47 <sandro> ... Fing is new generation of tools - use cases and business models

... Fing is new generation of tools - use cases and business models

10:12:03 <sandro> ... Phase 1: an easy open end of data, open platform

... Phase 1: an easy open end of data, open platform

10:12:28 <sandro> ... not re-inventing wheel.    We'll re-use existing solutions if they pass our benchmarks; all dev will be open source.

... not re-inventing wheel. We'll re-use existing solutions if they pass our benchmarks; all dev will be open source.

10:12:49 <sandro> ... - Assist the selection of data

... - Assist the selection of data

10:13:17 <sandro> ... (every thing must be proven on INSEE and IGN data)

... (every thing must be proven on INSEE and IGN data)

10:13:26 <sandro> ... - identify appropriate schemas

... - identify appropriate schemas

10:13:39 <PhilA> q+ to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data

Phil Archer: q+ to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data

10:14:33 <sandro> ack PhilA

ack PhilA

10:14:33 <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data

Zakim IRC Bot: PhilA, you wanted to ask about licensing/openness of IGN data

10:15:11 <sandro> phil: glad to see IGN in there (we have Ordnance Survey, in UK, which does the mapping); OS wants money for some of the data.

Phil Archer: glad to see IGN in there (we have Ordnance Survey, in UK, which does the mapping); OS wants money for some of the data.

10:15:59 <sandro> fabien: IGN has to get half their budget from sales, so that is a concern

Fabien Gandon: IGN has to get half their budget from sales, so that is a concern

10:16:20 <sandro> roger: RDF only, or OWL too?

Roger Cutler: RDF only, or OWL too?

10:16:34 <sandro> fabien: We'll use OWL when the scenario calls for it

Fabien Gandon: We'll use OWL when the scenario calls for it

10:17:01 <sandro> fabien: We are concerned about speed of reasoning, so we'll have to strike the balance

Fabien Gandon: We are concerned about speed of reasoning, so we'll have to strike the balance

10:17:34 <sandro> sandro: you don't have to do the reasoning

Sandro Hawke: you don't have to do the reasoning

10:17:49 <sandro> fabien: it depends on the scenario

Fabien Gandon: it depends on the scenario

10:18:16 <sandro> roger: Is this typical in eGov, to do this tradeoff?

Roger Cutler: Is this typical in eGov, to do this tradeoff?

10:18:57 <sandro> fabien: Everyone needs to make this kind of tradeoff

Fabien Gandon: Everyone needs to make this kind of tradeoff

10:19:06 <sandro> jeni: we're mostly staying away from OWL

Jeni Tennison: we're mostly staying away from OWL

10:19:17 <sandro> fabien: if we need some bit of OWL, then we can use it.

Fabien Gandon: if we need some bit of OWL, then we can use it.

10:19:36 <sandro> fabien: With Atos, we'll benchmark every solution and see what scales well enough.

Fabien Gandon: With Atos, we'll benchmark every solution and see what scales well enough.

10:20:10 <sandro> roger: in HCLS, I saw a very elaborate authentication scheme, that was depending on just being in RDF [[S?]].

Roger Cutler: in HCLS, I saw a very elaborate authentication scheme, that was depending on just being in RDF [[S?]].

10:20:21 <sandro> fabien: I heard of this in Freebase

Fabien Gandon: I heard of this in Freebase

10:21:29 <sandro> ... not even using RDFS because it was deemed too expensive.

... not even using RDFS because it was deemed too expensive.

10:21:42 <sandro> ... - format conversion & connectors

... - format conversion & connectors

10:21:47 <Roger> I believe it was RDFS

Roger Cutler: I believe it was RDFS

10:22:00 <sandro> ... (eg csv to rdf)

... (eg csv to rdf)

10:22:10 <Roger> The system was called S3.  It's pretty interesting.

Roger Cutler: The system was called S3. It's pretty interesting.

10:22:46 <sandro> ... - data publication itself (led by Atos)

... - data publication itself (led by Atos)

10:22:59 <sandro> ... - interconnecting data

... - interconnecting data

10:23:28 <sandro> .. eg URI for Paris connected to other URIs for Paris

.. eg URI for Paris connected to other URIs for Paris

10:23:33 <sandro> ... (or re-used)

... (or re-used)

10:24:01 <sandro> phil: What about talking to developers about using the data?

Phil Archer: What about talking to developers about using the data?

10:24:12 <sandro> fabien: Yes, we should have raised that topic more.

Fabien Gandon: Yes, we should have raised that topic more.

10:24:27 <sandro> ... it's one thing to show how to publish data; it's another thing maintain it

... it's one thing to show how to publish data; it's another thing maintain it

10:24:31 <Roger> Sorry -- S3DB

Roger Cutler: Sorry -- S3DB

10:24:59 <sandro> ... our developers mostly don't speak SPARQL and many don't speak English.

... our developers mostly don't speak SPARQL and many don't speak English.

10:25:15 <sandro> ... so a cookbook in English wont be enough

... so a cookbook in English wont be enough

10:25:32 <sandro> BANDHOLTZ: (missed question)

Thomas Bandholtz: (missed question)

10:25:37 <sandro> fabien: As soon as possible

Fabien Gandon: As soon as possible

10:26:15 <sandro> fabien: Other topics: visualize, API for mobile, clouds, legal advice, cookbook

Fabien Gandon: Other topics: visualize, API for mobile, clouds, legal advice, cookbook

10:27:16 <sandro> fabien: can you legally protect a URI?

Fabien Gandon: can you legally protect a URI?

10:27:32 <sandro> phil: *boom*    TimBL exploding on hearing that   [imagined]

Phil Archer: *boom* TimBL exploding on hearing that [imagined]

10:27:57 <sandro> fabien: R&D challenges:

Fabien Gandon: R&D challenges:

10:28:05 <sandro> ... methods and metrics for schema selection

... methods and metrics for schema selection

10:28:27 <sandro> ... balance of specific needs & reusability  (I think there is a tradeoff between usability and reusability)

... balance of specific needs & reusability (I think there is a tradeoff between usability and reusability)

10:28:43 <sandro> ... data conversion & identifiers generation

... data conversion & identifiers generation

10:29:03 <sandro> ... automation of dataset interconnection (via Jerome Euzenat)

... automation of dataset interconnection (via Jerome Euzenat)

10:29:32 <sandro> ... named graphs [hopefully aligned with RDF 1.1), provenance, licenses and rights

... named graphs [hopefully aligned with RDF 1.1), provenance, licenses and rights

10:29:34 <Roger> S3DB Permissioning: http://s3db.org/documentation/installation

Roger Cutler: S3DB Permissioning: http://s3db.org/documentation/installation

10:30:33 <sandro> ... First 18 months get platform running by www2012 in this building in Lyon!, then 18 more months.

... First 18 months get platform running by www2012 in this building in Lyon!, then 18 more months.

10:30:47 <sandro> ... user's club -- folks who want to use it

... user's club -- folks who want to use it

10:31:19 <sandro> ... includes City of Bordeaux

... includes City of Bordeaux

10:31:28 <sandro> ... Various Liaisons

... Various Liaisons

10:31:56 <sandro> sandro: how much money is the funding?

Sandro Hawke: how much money is the funding?

10:32:22 <sandro> fabien: 3 years, about 2-3k per year, some more for leader.

Fabien Gandon: 3 years, about 2-3k per year, some more for leader.

10:32:45 <sandro> fabien: may create related sub-projects.

Fabien Gandon: may create related sub-projects.

10:33:05 <sandro> fabien: we're trying to disturb the environment to create bubbles.   :-)

Fabien Gandon: we're trying to disturb the environment to create bubbles. :-)

10:33:32 <sandro> Topic: Linked Environment Data in Germany (Thomas Bandholtz)

6. Linked Environment Data in Germany (Thomas Bandholtz)

10:38:42 <sandro> bandholtz: Open Environment Data in the 90s

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Thomas Bandholtz: Open Environment Data in the 90s

10:38:52 <sandro> ... Aarhus Convention 1998

... Aarhus Convention 1998

10:39:06 <sandro> ... European Env. Agency (EEA) until 2002

... European Env. Agency (EEA) until 2002

10:39:25 <sandro> s/until 2002/

s/until 2002/

10:39:57 <sandro> ... Environmental Agencies in Germany

... Environmental Agencies in Germany

10:41:12 <sandro> ... (slide 4)

... (slide 4)

10:42:09 <sandro> ... INSPIRE based on open geospacial consortium, nor RDF yet

... INSPIRE based on open geospacial consortium, nor RDF yet

10:42:21 <sandro> ... access to raw data in OGC feature service

... access to raw data in OGC feature service

10:43:26 <sandro> ... many public sector portals about water, soil, etc --- web pages, pdf, csv, xml of web services --- exhausting harmonization process

... many public sector portals about water, soil, etc --- web pages, pdf, csv, xml of web services --- exhausting harmonization process

10:44:31 <sandro> ... sub-clouds like Linked Open Drug Data, linked to dbpedia; we probably wont use dbpedia as the central ref point, but it looks like they will map to us.

... sub-clouds like Linked Open Drug Data, linked to dbpedia; we probably wont use dbpedia as the central ref point, but it looks like they will map to us.

10:45:03 <sandro> ... (slide 13)

... (slide 13)

10:45:57 <sandro> ... (slide 14)

... (slide 14)

10:46:51 <sandro> ... GEMET and EUNIS published as Linked Data by EEA

... GEMET and EUNIS published as Linked Data by EEA

10:47:41 <sandro> ... (slide 15)

... (slide 15)

10:51:05 <sandro> ... (slide 17 has involve rdf vocabs)

... (slide 17 has involve rdf vocabs)

10:51:20 <sandro> ... SKOS, SKOS(XL) -- only stable/w3c

... SKOS, SKOS(XL) -- only stable/w3c

10:51:24 <sandro> ... Dublin Core

... Dublin Core

10:51:27 <sandro> ... geonames

... geonames

10:51:36 <sandro> ... linked events ontology, for the chronicle

... linked events ontology, for the chronicle

10:51:44 <sandro> ... Darwin Core (for species)

... Darwin Core (for species)

10:51:53 <sandro> ... SCOVO

... SCOVO

10:52:20 <sandro> fabien: I think there's a commercial version of geonames for more/better/current data

Fabien Gandon: I think there's a commercial version of geonames for more/better/current data

10:52:30 <timbl> With a different ontology?

Tim Berners-Lee: With a different ontology?

10:53:06 <sandro> bandholtz: German govt has their own data, and the agency that owns the data wants to sell it.  There's a free version, but it doesn't include the polygons.

Thomas Bandholtz: German govt has their own data, and the agency that owns the data wants to sell it. There's a free version, but it doesn't include the polygons.

10:53:14 <timbl> q+ to OSM

Tim Berners-Lee: q+ to OSM

10:53:30 <sandro> bandholtz: We us geograph names; we don't use maps; this river flows through these cities, one by one.

Thomas Bandholtz: We us geograph names; we don't use maps; this river flows through these cities, one by one.

10:53:59 <sandro> bandholtz: sensor web, many developments to come

Thomas Bandholtz: sensor web, many developments to come

10:54:19 <sandro> bandholtz: Darwin Core seemed to like the version I did of their work using SKOS.

Thomas Bandholtz: Darwin Core seemed to like the version I did of their work using SKOS.

10:54:56 <sandro> timbl: Have you looked at Open Street Map as a source of geospacial?

Tim Berners-Lee: Have you looked at Open Street Map as a source of geospacial?

10:55:09 <sandro> timbl: linkedgeodata.org is a LD mirror of it.

Tim Berners-Lee: linkedgeodata.org is a LD mirror of it.

10:55:15 <sandro> bandholtz: I'll take a look at that.

Thomas Bandholtz: I'll take a look at that.

10:55:36 <sandro> timbl: I'm told open streetmap is a better source of data than geonames

Tim Berners-Lee: I'm told open streetmap is a better source of data than geonames

10:56:17 <sandro> bandholtz: We use SCOVO or env. specimen bank, and some extensions.   SDMX data came along.

Thomas Bandholtz: We use SCOVO or env. specimen bank, and some extensions. SDMX data came along.

10:56:54 <sandro> Jeni: We've looked at using SDMX -- just using the datacube part looks good, as a midpoint between SCOVO and SDMX.

Jeni Tennison: We've looked at using SDMX -- just using the datacube part looks good, as a midpoint between SCOVO and SDMX.

10:57:05 <sandro> bandholtz: We used the specialized subproperties of dimensin

Thomas Bandholtz: We used the specialized subproperties of dimensin

10:57:09 <sandro> jeni: Yes

Jeni Tennison: Yes

10:58:00 <sandro> bandholtz: In skos-xl, class literals, so you can link labels.

Thomas Bandholtz: In skos-xl, class literals, so you can link labels.

10:58:24 <sandro> bandholtz: inflectional forms of one word, extended properties of label class.

Thomas Bandholtz: inflectional forms of one word, extended properties of label class.

10:58:29 <timbl> For an RDF mapping see LinkedGeoData.org   http://linkedgeodata.org/About

Tim Berners-Lee: For an RDF mapping see LinkedGeoData.org http://linkedgeodata.org/About

10:58:38 <sandro> bandholtz: you could talk about this for years, we never came to an end.

Thomas Bandholtz: you could talk about this for years, we never came to an end.

10:58:55 <sandro> bandholtz: (slide 18)

Thomas Bandholtz: (slide 18)

10:59:26 <sandro> bandholtz: SPARQL end points -- can easily give accidental Denial of Service attack.   :-)

Thomas Bandholtz: SPARQL end points -- can easily give accidental Denial of Service attack. :-)

10:59:57 <sandro> bandholtz: but providing SPARQL would be nice.

Thomas Bandholtz: but providing SPARQL would be nice.

11:00:14 <sandro> bandholtz: authentication and access control would be good.

Thomas Bandholtz: authentication and access control would be good.

11:00:17 <timbl> (or a default limit =1000 for non-authenticated users)

Tim Berners-Lee: (or a default limit =1000 for non-authenticated users)

11:01:07 <sandro> sandro: 4store includes a built-in resource limit, but default

Sandro Hawke: 4store includes a built-in resource limit, but default

11:01:32 <sandro> fabien: we built in a default limit, although that can confuse users who dont know about it.

Fabien Gandon: we built in a default limit, although that can confuse users who dont know about it.

11:01:46 <sandro> bandholtz: This is good advice

Thomas Bandholtz: This is good advice

11:02:53 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?

RRSAgent, pointer?

11:02:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc#T11-02-53

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-irc#T11-02-53

11:03:26 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes

11:03:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html sandro

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html sandro

13:09:22 <sandro> topic: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items

(No events recorded for 125 minutes)

7. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/GLD_Work_Items

<sandro> scribe: jeni

(Scribe set to Jeni Tennison)

13:10:05 <JeniT> sandro: using same model as RDF Core Work Items list

Sandro Hawke: using same model as RDF Core Work Items list

13:10:28 <PhilA> Sandro: inspiration for methodology here is the RDF Core http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/RDF_Core_Work_Items

Sandro Hawke: inspiration for methodology here is the RDF Core http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/RDF_Core_Work_Items [ Scribe Assist by Phil Archer ]

13:10:46 <JeniT> sandro: four categories for the work items

Sandro Hawke: four categories for the work items

13:10:57 <JeniT> sandro: 1. helping deployment happen

Sandro Hawke: 1. helping deployment happen

13:11:11 <JeniT> sandro: 2. liaison items such as provenance & named graphs

Sandro Hawke: 2. liaison items such as provenance & named graphs

13:11:30 <JeniT> sandro: 3. vocabulary items

Sandro Hawke: 3. vocabulary items

13:11:54 <JeniT> sandro: 4. other technical development work items such as design patterns for URIs

Sandro Hawke: 4. other technical development work items such as design patterns for URIs

13:12:22 <JeniT> sandro: promised charter by end of January

Sandro Hawke: promised charter by end of January

13:12:31 <JeniT> sandro: would mean start in April, running for two years

Sandro Hawke: would mean start in April, running for two years

13:12:55 <JeniT> sandro: expect F2F meetings to be useful but hard for people to travel, so may try split F2F meetings

Sandro Hawke: expect F2F meetings to be useful but hard for people to travel, so may try split F2F meetings

13:13:30 <JeniT> ... video conferencing between two places

... video conferencing between two places

13:13:57 <JeniT> ... to specific work items:

... to specific work items:

13:14:07 <JeniT> ... 2.1 Procurement Definitions

... 2.1 Procurement Definitions

13:14:17 <JeniT> ... @johnlsheridan mentioned that this is an issue

... @johnlsheridan mentioned that this is an issue

13:14:58 <JeniT> ... having standardised definitions of terms/products to include this in ITTs etc

... having standardised definitions of terms/products to include this in ITTs etc

13:15:47 <JeniT> PhilA: something that is very important for government procurement

Phil Archer: something that is very important for government procurement

13:16:15 <JeniT> ... similar to WCAG guidelines, governments can point to them and say 'you must produce according to these standards'

... similar to WCAG guidelines, governments can point to them and say 'you must produce according to these standards'

13:16:57 <JeniT> FabGandon: would this include success stories?

Fabien Gandon: would this include success stories?

13:17:02 <JeniT> ... real scenarios?

... real scenarios?

13:17:13 <JeniT> Sandro: not in this piece

Sandro Hawke: not in this piece

13:17:22 <JeniT> Sandro: beautiful license out of UK

Sandro Hawke: beautiful license out of UK

13:17:35 <JeniT> ... could be understood as a human

... could be understood as a human

13:17:44 <JeniT> ... is there something we can do internationally?

... is there something we can do internationally?

13:17:53 <JeniT> ... having a list of licenses used in different countries?

... having a list of licenses used in different countries?

13:18:03 <JeniT> FabGandon: I've been using double licensing

Fabien Gandon: I've been using double licensing

13:18:38 <JeniT> ... RDFa/GRDDL profile was licensed LGPL and a french license

... RDFa/GRDDL profile was licensed LGPL and a french license

13:19:10 <JeniT> Sandro: yesterday Daniel talking about getting bicycle accident data

Sandro Hawke: yesterday Daniel talking about getting bicycle accident data

13:19:18 <JeniT> ... had to sign a paper license

... had to sign a paper license

13:19:31 <JeniT> ... included things to say that he had to keep his application up to date

... included things to say that he had to keep his application up to date

13:19:54 <sandro> vocab for describing licenses

Sandro Hawke: vocab for describing licenses

13:20:24 <sandro> sandro: let me query for datasources I;m allowed to use for my app

Sandro Hawke: let me query for datasources I;m allowed to use for my app [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:20:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: something to indicate where licenses are roughly equivalent

Fabien Gandon: something to indicate where licenses are roughly equivalent

13:21:44 <sandro> jeni: maybe some recommendations about what makes a good license for gov data --- allowing reuse

Jeni Tennison: maybe some recommendations about what makes a good license for gov data --- allowing reuse [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:22:08 <sandro> jeni: guidance for licenses which enable the right kind of use

Jeni Tennison: guidance for licenses which enable the right kind of use [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:22:27 <JeniT> Sandro: 5-10 page note maybe?

Sandro Hawke: 5-10 page note maybe?

13:22:47 <JeniT> Sandro: is this W3C says this or just the working group says this?

Sandro Hawke: is this W3C says this or just the working group says this?

13:23:01 <JeniT> PhilA: be hard to have a recommendation for licenses

Phil Archer: be hard to have a recommendation for licenses

13:23:14 <JeniT> ... but a recommendation carries more weight

... but a recommendation carries more weight

13:23:48 <JeniT> ... how would you include two independent implementations?

... how would you include two independent implementations?

13:23:58 <JeniT> Sandro: two governments that follow the practices

Sandro Hawke: two governments that follow the practices

13:24:40 <JeniT> ... might make sense to have it as one of several points within a recommendation

... might make sense to have it as one of several points within a recommendation

13:24:57 <JeniT> ... need the WG to work out what granularity of documents they want

... need the WG to work out what granularity of documents they want

13:25:03 <JeniT> Sandro: 2.3 Community Survey

Sandro Hawke: 2.3 Community Survey

13:25:14 <JeniT> ... self-sustaining database of vendors

... self-sustaining database of vendors

13:25:25 <JeniT> PhilA: would this include apps that use the data?

Phil Archer: would this include apps that use the data?

13:25:38 <JeniT> Sandro: wasn't thinking so but data consuming systems would be good

Sandro Hawke: wasn't thinking so but data consuming systems would be good

13:25:47 <JeniT> ... the hardest part is to make it self-sustaining

... the hardest part is to make it self-sustaining

13:26:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: only example that comes to mind is Semantic Web Tool Wiki page

Fabien Gandon: only example that comes to mind is Semantic Web Tool Wiki page

13:26:19 <JeniT> ... but you're talking about a real database

... but you're talking about a real database

13:26:31 <JeniT> Sandro: it could be a wiki page, but there are some people who aren't happy with that

Sandro Hawke: it could be a wiki page, but there are some people who aren't happy with that

13:26:39 <JeniT> ... would give WG freedom to decide how to do it

... would give WG freedom to decide how to do it

13:27:38 <JeniT> PhilA: why do you care that this gets done?

Phil Archer: why do you care that this gets done?

13:27:39 <sandro> sandro: it's more important that this is done than that ie be a demo.

Sandro Hawke: it's more important that this is done than that ie be a demo. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:28:00 <JeniT> PhilA: about the whole government linked data thing

Phil Archer: about the whole government linked data thing

13:28:12 <JeniT> Sandro: got a very enthusiastic yes from the AC

Sandro Hawke: got a very enthusiastic yes from the AC

13:28:38 <JeniT> PhilA: building community is very important

Phil Archer: building community is very important

13:28:42 <JeniT> ... how far does it go?

... how far does it go?

13:28:51 <JeniT> ... it's hard to keep it coherent and up to date

... it's hard to keep it coherent and up to date

13:29:01 <JeniT> ... high hurdle for WGs

... high hurdle for WGs

13:29:06 <JeniT> Sandro: these lists tend to atrophy

Sandro Hawke: these lists tend to atrophy

13:29:23 <JeniT> FabGandon: only successful example is this wiki page, because it survived the group that started it

Fabien Gandon: only successful example is this wiki page, because it survived the group that started it

13:29:43 <JeniT> Sandro: even if it doesn't survive the group, the list working for a year or two would be very useful

Sandro Hawke: even if it doesn't survive the group, the list working for a year or two would be very useful

13:29:49 <JeniT> PhilA: certainly as the group is going

Phil Archer: certainly as the group is going

13:30:10 <sandro> jeni: make it be a resource for the WG as it's runnig.

Jeni Tennison: make it be a resource for the WG as it's runnig. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:30:26 <JeniT> Sandro: would hope that it could aim to be potentially self-sustaining

Sandro Hawke: would hope that it could aim to be potentially self-sustaining

13:31:05 <sandro> jeni: It should be a success just to have it run during the live of the wg.

Jeni Tennison: It should be a success just to have it run during the live of the wg. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:31:15 <JeniT> PhilA: would hope that at the end someone would want to pick it up and continue with it, but it would not be a failure of the WG if that didn't happen

Phil Archer: would hope that at the end someone would want to pick it up and continue with it, but it would not be a failure of the WG if that didn't happen

13:31:28 <JeniT> Sandro: maybe the mediawiki solution is good enough in that case

Sandro Hawke: maybe the mediawiki solution is good enough in that case

13:31:42 <JeniT> ... fairly dogfoody, even if RDF is not very linked data

... fairly dogfoody, even if RDF is not very linked data

13:32:19 <JeniT> ... helps us make sure that we know who to ping to try to get public review of our specs

... helps us make sure that we know who to ping to try to get public review of our specs

13:32:28 <JeniT> ... and is useful to the communities

... and is useful to the communities

13:32:36 <JeniT> Sandro: 2.4 Cookbook or Storybook

Sandro Hawke: 2.4 Cookbook or Storybook

13:32:48 <JeniT> FabGandon: yes, scenarios and success stories

Fabien Gandon: yes, scenarios and success stories

13:33:09 <JeniT> ... when I talk to people in public sector, as a researcher they think everything I say is science fiction

... when I talk to people in public sector, as a researcher they think everything I say is science fiction

13:33:22 <JeniT> ... I want a place to point them

... I want a place to point them

13:33:34 <JeniT> PhilA: would that be the equivalent of a use cases document?

Phil Archer: would that be the equivalent of a use cases document?

13:33:50 <JeniT> FabGandon: use cases aren't always implemented, scenarios are things that are already deployed

Fabien Gandon: use cases aren't always implemented, scenarios are things that are already deployed

13:33:59 <JeniT> ... using UK a lot for this

... using UK a lot for this

13:34:13 <JeniT> PhilA: but this would be early input to the group

Phil Archer: but this would be early input to the group

13:34:35 <JeniT> FabGandon: making them visible in a document gives me something to point to

Fabien Gandon: making them visible in a document gives me something to point to

13:34:45 <JeniT> ... there are best practices

... there are best practices

13:34:50 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes

Phil Archer: rrsagent, draft minutes

13:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

13:35:03 <JeniT> Sandro: use cases tend to abstract from scenarios

Sandro Hawke: use cases tend to abstract from scenarios

13:35:20 <JeniT> FabGandon: GRDDL use cases were a fiction

Fabien Gandon: GRDDL use cases were a fiction

13:35:33 <JeniT> PhilA: I'm expecting WG to come up with best practices and recommendations

Phil Archer: I'm expecting WG to come up with best practices and recommendations

13:35:43 <JeniT> ... need to have scenarios as input for that

... need to have scenarios as input for that

13:35:50 <JeniT> ... same function as use cases

... same function as use cases

13:36:04 <JeniT> Sandro: a product of WG is to have gathered a collection

Sandro Hawke: a product of WG is to have gathered a collection

13:36:17 <JeniT> ... could be written by people associated with scenarios, if we can get them to do it

... could be written by people associated with scenarios, if we can get them to do it

13:36:33 <JeniT> ... not sure about stories about failures

... not sure about stories about failures

13:36:57 <JeniT> PhilA: having stories about failure are really useful

Phil Archer: having stories about failure are really useful

13:37:12 <JeniT> ... being able to talk about failures in a constructive way

... being able to talk about failures in a constructive way

13:37:20 <JeniT> Sandro: may be hard to do that in published writing

Sandro Hawke: may be hard to do that in published writing

13:37:24 <JeniT> ... but worth a try

... but worth a try

13:37:32 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.1 Provenance

Sandro Hawke: 3.1 Provenance

13:37:43 <JeniT> ... been incubator running for a year

... been incubator running for a year

13:37:48 <JeniT> ... final year is going to recommend WG

... final year is going to recommend WG

13:37:54 <JeniT> ... suspect that there will be one in the next 6 months

... suspect that there will be one in the next 6 months

13:38:04 <JeniT> ... this group interacting with that group would be useful

... this group interacting with that group would be useful

13:38:12 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.2 Named Graphs

Sandro Hawke: 3.2 Named Graphs

13:38:18 <JeniT> ... similarly, this interacts with provenance

... similarly, this interacts with provenance

13:38:28 <JeniT> Sandro: 3.3 POI WG

Sandro Hawke: 3.3 POI WG

13:38:39 <JeniT> ... not sure how much government geography is addressed by this

... not sure how much government geography is addressed by this

13:38:48 <JeniT> ... think it's just going to be lat/long + polygons

... think it's just going to be lat/long + polygons

13:38:57 <JeniT> PhilA: I ran workshop that led to POI WG

Phil Archer: I ran workshop that led to POI WG

13:39:10 <JeniT> ... going to be struggle to get them to acknowledge linked data exists

... going to be struggle to get them to acknowledge linked data exists

13:39:27 <JeniT> ... one guy from DERI trying to get them to think about it

... one guy from DERI trying to get them to think about it

13:39:38 <JeniT> ... augmented reality main group

... augmented reality main group

13:39:51 <JeniT> ... will need active steering to ensure liaison

... will need active steering to ensure liaison

13:39:58 <JeniT> Sandro: need a person in both groups

Sandro Hawke: need a person in both groups

13:40:08 <JeniT> ... I was being optimistic about RDF vocabulary

... I was being optimistic about RDF vocabulary

13:40:14 <JeniT> PhilA: yes, very

Phil Archer: yes, very

13:40:31 <JeniT> ... as interested in moving objects as static

... as interested in moving objects as static

13:40:43 <JeniT> ... and motion in relative direction

... and motion in relative direction

13:41:09 <JeniT> Sandro: in worst case, someone could take formal model and map to RDF

Sandro Hawke: in worst case, someone could take formal model and map to RDF

13:41:34 <JeniT> Sandro: probably other liaisons I've forgotten

Sandro Hawke: probably other liaisons I've forgotten

13:41:38 <JeniT> ... SPARQL?

... SPARQL?

13:41:51 <JeniT> ... don't know exactly what dependency looks like

... don't know exactly what dependency looks like

13:42:07 <JeniT> ... are there any outside of W3C?

... are there any outside of W3C?

13:42:16 <JeniT> ... organisations doing some close to GLD?

... organisations doing some close to GLD?

13:42:47 <JeniT> PhilA: need people from data.gov from different countries

Phil Archer: need people from data.gov from different countries

13:42:54 <JeniT> Sandro: hoping that they get involved in the working group

Sandro Hawke: hoping that they get involved in the working group

13:43:01 <JeniT> ... thinking about peer organisations

... thinking about peer organisations

13:43:16 <JeniT> ... normally have standards, vendors & other standards bodies

... normally have standards, vendors & other standards bodies

13:43:43 <JeniT> FabGandon: wonder if relying on local offices to synchronise locally

Fabien Gandon: wonder if relying on local offices to synchronise locally

13:43:54 <JeniT> ... W3C office in Paris will be good point of synchronisation

... W3C office in Paris will be good point of synchronisation

13:44:11 <JeniT> ... of communicating, diffusing, making sure right people are aware

... of communicating, diffusing, making sure right people are aware

13:44:17 <JeniT> PhilA: not just national governments

Phil Archer: not just national governments

13:44:30 <JeniT> ... colleague talking to Helsinki, Berlin, city authorities

... colleague talking to Helsinki, Berlin, city authorities

13:44:37 <JeniT> ... not just national governments, but local ones as well

... not just national governments, but local ones as well

13:45:34 <JeniT> Sandro: check with OASIS and OMG and usual suspects

Sandro Hawke: check with OASIS and OMG and usual suspects

13:45:51 <JeniT> Thomas: INSPIRE and OGC?

Thomas Bandholtz: INSPIRE and OGC?

13:46:07 <JeniT> ... they are doing something not so different, but with URNs and XML

... they are doing something not so different, but with URNs and XML

13:46:30 <JeniT> ... someone would have to write a technical spec for RDF

... someone would have to write a technical spec for RDF

13:46:39 <JeniT> Sandro: is there funding available if someone has the skills to do it?

Sandro Hawke: is there funding available if someone has the skills to do it?

13:46:55 <JeniT> Thomas: it's a EU directive, and each government has people who are working on it

Thomas Bandholtz: it's a EU directive, and each government has people who are working on it

13:47:07 <JeniT> Sandro: seems like the kind of thing that a university might do

Sandro Hawke: seems like the kind of thing that a university might do

13:48:02 <JeniT> Sandro: is it a good model that anyone else might be interested in?

Sandro Hawke: is it a good model that anyone else might be interested in?

13:48:09 <PhilA> Jeni: Stuart Williams is working with the UK end of INSPIRE to do some mapping of the object modles into RDF

Jeni Tennison: Stuart Williams is working with the UK end of INSPIRE to do some mapping of the object modles into RDF [ Scribe Assist by Phil Archer ]

13:48:17 <JeniT> Thomas: harmonising on what each member should provide on each topic

Thomas Bandholtz: harmonising on what each member should provide on each topic

13:48:22 <JeniT> ... they have a dozen themes

... they have a dozen themes

13:48:32 <JeniT> ... mandatory data items on each theme

... mandatory data items on each theme

13:48:39 <PhilA> Stuart Williams, formerly of HP, TAG member, now at Epimorphics, Bristol-based Sem Web consultancy

Phil Archer: Stuart Williams, formerly of HP, TAG member, now at Epimorphics, Bristol-based Sem Web consultancy

13:48:43 <JeniT> ... we shouldn't care about domain-specific things

... we shouldn't care about domain-specific things

13:49:01 <JeniT> ... we could get a huge mass of more data if we mapped into RDF

... we could get a huge mass of more data if we mapped into RDF

13:49:08 <JeniT> ... get a lot of benefits from organisational power of INSPIRE

... get a lot of benefits from organisational power of INSPIRE

13:49:17 <JeniT> PhilA: the one bit of data that sticks in my head

Phil Archer: the one bit of data that sticks in my head

13:49:25 <JeniT> ... is target for implementation is 2018

... is target for implementation is 2018

13:49:31 <JeniT> ... so don't want to depend on INSPIRE

... so don't want to depend on INSPIRE

13:49:36 <JeniT> ... this group would inspire INSPIRE

... this group would inspire INSPIRE

13:49:49 <JeniT> ... W3C is known to be slow, but we're faster than that!

... W3C is known to be slow, but we're faster than that!

13:50:01 <sandro> OGC

Sandro Hawke: OGC

13:50:01 <JeniT> Thomas: there are many agencies publishing data using OGC services

Thomas Bandholtz: there are many agencies publishing data using OGC services

13:50:21 <JeniT> ... maybe better to talk about SDI

... maybe better to talk about SDI

13:50:30 <sandro> spacial data infrastructure

Sandro Hawke: spacial data infrastructure

13:50:41 <JeniT> ... they have a G (Global) SDI conference every year

... they have a G (Global) SDI conference every year

13:50:50 <JeniT> ... have questions about how to publish this in RDF

... have questions about how to publish this in RDF

13:50:56 <JeniT> ... all fragmentary contributions

... all fragmentary contributions

13:51:04 <JeniT> ... would be a different level

... would be a different level

13:51:12 <JeniT> ... they have a catalogue service web, like DCAT

... they have a catalogue service web, like DCAT

13:51:23 <JeniT> Sandro: is OGC a reasonable way to interact with them?

Sandro Hawke: is OGC a reasonable way to interact with them?

13:51:27 <JeniT> ... they are W3C members

... they are W3C members

13:51:38 <JeniT> ... we might be able to get them to participate in a liaison capacity

... we might be able to get them to participate in a liaison capacity

13:52:00 <JeniT> Thomas: geoSPARQL is one of these topics

Thomas Bandholtz: geoSPARQL is one of these topics

13:52:09 <JeniT> ... encoding of sensor observation services in RDF

... encoding of sensor observation services in RDF

13:52:15 <JeniT> ... these are ongoing activities

... these are ongoing activities

13:52:22 <JeniT> ... not specific for government, but INSPIRE is

... not specific for government, but INSPIRE is

13:52:39 <JeniT> Sandro: every nation has a lot of legal issues around geographical information

Sandro Hawke: every nation has a lot of legal issues around geographical information

13:52:52 <JeniT> Thomas: this is one of the things, that you describe the data that you will sell

Thomas Bandholtz: this is one of the things, that you describe the data that you will sell

13:53:04 <JeniT> ... I used to talk about linked data

... I used to talk about linked data

13:53:26 <JeniT> ... not talking about LOD any more, because we shouldn't exclude non-open data

... not talking about LOD any more, because we shouldn't exclude non-open data

13:53:47 <JeniT> FabGandon: And accessing the data from my company I have access to things on the intranet

Fabien Gandon: And accessing the data from my company I have access to things on the intranet

13:54:07 <JeniT> Sandro: these are good pointers, but I'm not sure what it makes sure to do in this charter

Sandro Hawke: these are good pointers, but I'm not sure what it makes sure to do in this charter

13:54:17 <JeniT> ... my thought was that POI would take care of it, but I guess not

... my thought was that POI would take care of it, but I guess not

13:55:31 <JeniT> JeniT: feels like a rat hole

Jeni Tennison: feels like a rat hole

13:55:46 <JeniT> Sandro: we can make it in scope, out of scope, or get the WG to decide

Sandro Hawke: we can make it in scope, out of scope, or get the WG to decide

13:56:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: think it's difficult to rule out geographic data in a government data charter

Fabien Gandon: think it's difficult to rule out geographic data in a government data charter

13:56:19 <JeniT> ... so many scenarios where you need geographical data

... so many scenarios where you need geographical data

13:56:27 <JeniT> PhilA: some liaison would be useful

Phil Archer: some liaison would be useful

13:56:57 <JeniT> ... 'we will liaise with POI WG, and be aware of other work going on in this area, but not core duty of GLD WG to codify'

... 'we will liaise with POI WG, and be aware of other work going on in this area, but not core duty of GLD WG to codify'

13:57:13 <JeniT> FabGandon: going to be the same with temporal data representation

Fabien Gandon: going to be the same with temporal data representation

13:57:29 <JeniT> ... want to say that 'this data is only valid for this financial year'

... want to say that 'this data is only valid for this financial year'

13:57:32 <JeniT> ... another rat hole

... another rat hole

13:57:40 <sandro> PhilA: "We think this is important, and we'll liaise, but we wont develop a vocab for geo"

Phil Archer: "We think this is important, and we'll liaise, but we wont develop a vocab for geo" [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

13:57:51 <JeniT> ... good part is that you don't have proprietary aspects

... good part is that you don't have proprietary aspects

13:58:06 <JeniT> ... again needs liaison with people in time data

... again needs liaison with people in time data

13:58:23 <JeniT> PhilA: this is relevant for POI, because important in crisis management

Phil Archer: this is relevant for POI, because important in crisis management

13:58:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: we have someone who may be involved in this aspect

Fabien Gandon: we have someone who may be involved in this aspect

13:59:23 <JeniT> Sandro: The next two groups were vocabulary and non-vocabulary technical items

Sandro Hawke: The next two groups were vocabulary and non-vocabulary technical items

13:59:34 <JeniT> ... I had some idea of doing vocabularies later, but let's proceed in order

... I had some idea of doing vocabularies later, but let's proceed in order

14:00:02 <JeniT> ... TimBL at dinner last night said something...

... TimBL at dinner last night said something...

14:00:21 <JeniT> ... I had always envisioned that W3C would write the vocabulary, document it and so on

... I had always envisioned that W3C would write the vocabulary, document it and so on

14:00:43 <JeniT> ... but TimBL said that if foaf:name is what people should use, we can say in the W3C Recommendation that that's what people should use

... but TimBL said that if foaf:name is what people should use, we can say in the W3C Recommendation that that's what people should use

14:00:56 <JeniT> ... but we could set a bar for what we mean for a 3rd party vocabulary

... but we could set a bar for what we mean for a 3rd party vocabulary

14:01:02 <JeniT> ... and if FOAF can get over that bar

... and if FOAF can get over that bar

14:01:04 <JeniT> ... then that's fine

... then that's fine

14:01:11 <JeniT> PhilA: we wanted to use FOAF

Phil Archer: we wanted to use FOAF

14:01:26 <JeniT> ... and if DanBrickley goes under a bus, the server goes with him

... and if DanBrickley goes under a bus, the server goes with him

14:01:32 <JeniT> ... (this is in POWDER)

... (this is in POWDER)

14:01:43 <JeniT> ... got around it by using Dublin Core

... got around it by using Dublin Core

14:01:57 <JeniT> ... we had conversations for ages about this, about how FOAF could become more stable

... we had conversations for ages about this, about how FOAF could become more stable

14:02:02 <JeniT> ... doesn't have an organisation behind it

... doesn't have an organisation behind it

14:02:07 <JeniT> ... could W3C manage it? no

... could W3C manage it? no

14:02:29 <sandro> jeni: I think there are some important things here, around check boxes for what vocabs we will trust.

Jeni Tennison: I think there are some important things here, around check boxes for what vocabs we will trust. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:03:06 <sandro> ... lots of stuff around the org behind it, documented policy on change control, ...   it would be useful to document these up front.  THESE ARE THE THINGS WE EXPECT A GOOD VOCAB TO DO.

Sandro Hawke: ... lots of stuff around the org behind it, documented policy on change control, ... it would be useful to document these up front. THESE ARE THE THINGS WE EXPECT A GOOD VOCAB TO DO.

14:03:23 <JeniT> Sandro: going meta, aside from the terms that we recommend...

Sandro Hawke: going meta, aside from the terms that we recommend...

14:03:30 <JeniT> ... this is going to be useful for Governments as well

... this is going to be useful for Governments as well

14:03:41 <JeniT> ... to help Governments to identify which vocabularies they can use

... to help Governments to identify which vocabularies they can use

14:03:56 <JeniT> ... could be GLD or could come from somewhere else

... could be GLD or could come from somewhere else

14:04:43 <sandro> jeni; Wider LD cloud might not care so much about stability.   Academic projects don't mind so much.

Sandro Hawke: jeni; Wider LD cloud might not care so much about stability. Academic projects don't mind so much.

14:04:56 <sandro> fabien: France wont use schemas of the UK.

Fabien Gandon: France wont use schemas of the UK. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:05:07 <JeniT> PhilA: going to be a problem all over

Phil Archer: going to be a problem all over

14:05:13 <JeniT> ... W3C isn't designed to manage vocabularies

... W3C isn't designed to manage vocabularies

14:05:19 <JeniT> FabGandon: scalability problems as well

Fabien Gandon: scalability problems as well

14:05:25 <JeniT> ... only standardise what's domain independent

... only standardise what's domain independent

14:05:29 <JeniT> ... can standardise provenance

... can standardise provenance

14:05:37 <JeniT> ... cannot standardise biology ontology

... cannot standardise biology ontology

14:05:43 <JeniT> ... this changes things a little bit

... this changes things a little bit

14:05:58 <JeniT> ... here we're crossing that line a bit

... here we're crossing that line a bit

14:06:17 <JeniT> Thomas: we don't have to standardise geographical vocabulary, just specifying serialisation

Thomas Bandholtz: we don't have to standardise geographical vocabulary, just specifying serialisation

14:06:34 <JeniT> FabGandon: there could be a well-known XML vocabulary, just provide RDFS version

Fabien Gandon: there could be a well-known XML vocabulary, just provide RDFS version

14:06:41 <JeniT> PhilA: I think purls provide the way out of this

Phil Archer: I think purls provide the way out of this

14:06:49 <JeniT> ... if it can't be on w3.org

... if it can't be on w3.org

14:06:58 <JeniT> Sandro: I wouldn't say it can't be on w3.org

Sandro Hawke: I wouldn't say it can't be on w3.org

14:07:05 <JeniT> ... there's the organisation vocabulary

... there's the organisation vocabulary

14:07:51 <JeniT> ... @der42 approached TimBL to host it

... @der42 approached TimBL to host it

14:08:04 <JeniT> ... there's a maintenance headache that comes with that

... there's a maintenance headache that comes with that

14:08:14 <JeniT> ... this is something TimBLs been pushing a long time

... this is something TimBLs been pushing a long time

14:08:25 <JeniT> ... I've been pushing this for a long time too

... I've been pushing this for a long time too

14:09:12 <JeniT> PhilA: the person to convince is Ted Guild

Phil Archer: the person to convince is Ted Guild

14:10:39 <JeniT> Sandro: vocabulary hosting in general is a huge issue for governments

Sandro Hawke: vocabulary hosting in general is a huge issue for governments

14:10:48 <JeniT> FabGandon: more important than in any other domain

Fabien Gandon: more important than in any other domain

14:11:12 <JeniT> Sandro: I've been advocating that someone like IBM should get into the vocabulary hosting business

Sandro Hawke: I've been advocating that someone like IBM should get into the vocabulary hosting business

14:11:27 <JeniT> PhilA: same issue with Talis hosting it: we're a commercial company!

Phil Archer: same issue with Talis hosting it: we're a commercial company!

14:11:33 <JeniT> Sandro: so you get what you pay for

Sandro Hawke: so you get what you pay for

14:12:19 <JeniT> ... could pay a company to host it for a period of time

... could pay a company to host it for a period of time

14:12:30 <JeniT> PhilA: we would host the stuff with a purl pointing to it

Phil Archer: we would host the stuff with a purl pointing to it

14:12:47 <JeniT> ... the purl points somewhere else if Talis goes under a bus

... the purl points somewhere else if Talis goes under a bus

14:12:53 <JeniT> Sandro: I would say domain name per vocabulary

Sandro Hawke: I would say domain name per vocabulary

14:13:01 <JeniT> ... foaf.org rather than xmlns whatever it is

... foaf.org rather than xmlns whatever it is

14:13:17 <JeniT> ... that gives the most flexibility

... that gives the most flexibility

14:13:28 <JeniT> PhilA: govvocabulary.org/2010 or whatever

Phil Archer: govvocabulary.org/2010 or whatever

14:13:39 <JeniT> Sandro: but then you bind together several vocabularies in one organisation

Sandro Hawke: but then you bind together several vocabularies in one organisation

14:13:52 <JeniT> ... if they are controlled by different people then you don't want them on the same domain name

... if they are controlled by different people then you don't want them on the same domain name

14:14:01 <JeniT> PhilA: it's an issue because of neutrality

Phil Archer: it's an issue because of neutrality

14:14:05 <JeniT> ... FOAF is a good example

... FOAF is a good example

14:14:19 <JeniT> Sandro: were you serious, Fabien, when you said that France wouldn't use any UK vocabularies?

Sandro Hawke: were you serious, Fabien, when you said that France wouldn't use any UK vocabularies?

14:14:29 <JeniT> FabGandon: I haven't checked, I know the reaction about hosting the data

Fabien Gandon: I haven't checked, I know the reaction about hosting the data

14:14:50 <JeniT> ... wouldn't be surprised if French objected

... wouldn't be surprised if French objected

14:15:02 <JeniT> ... issue with internationalisation as well

... issue with internationalisation as well

14:15:16 <JeniT> Sandro: would hope that any vocabulary provider would accept translations

Sandro Hawke: would hope that any vocabulary provider would accept translations

14:15:26 <JeniT> PhilA: but who guarantees translation is accurate

Phil Archer: but who guarantees translation is accurate

14:15:42 <JeniT> FabGandon: in EU, have whole process of maintaining translation of different documents

Fabien Gandon: in EU, have whole process of maintaining translation of different documents

14:16:09 <JeniT> PhilA: if you had a vocabulary that had anything but a .com, .org ending...

Phil Archer: if you had a vocabulary that had anything but a .com, .org ending...

14:16:16 <JeniT> ... no way Americans would accept that

... no way Americans would accept that

14:16:49 <JeniT> Sandro: end up using .com, .org or .net for the vocabularies

Sandro Hawke: end up using .com, .org or .net for the vocabularies

14:17:06 <JeniT> Sandro: 4.1 Metadata for Data Catalogs

Sandro Hawke: 4.1 Metadata for Data Catalogs

14:17:14 <JeniT> ... no brainer that we want to move along DCAT in this group

... no brainer that we want to move along DCAT in this group

14:17:29 <JeniT> ... had an interest group telecon with @cygri

... had an interest group telecon with @cygri

14:17:40 <JeniT> ... wanted to spin off taskforce to do it

... wanted to spin off taskforce to do it

14:18:00 <JeniT> ... had large group that quickly dwindled

... had large group that quickly dwindled

14:18:11 <JeniT> ... stopped entirely when Semtech came around, and didn't start up again

... stopped entirely when Semtech came around, and didn't start up again

14:18:18 <JeniT> ... lots of interest there

... lots of interest there

14:18:38 <JeniT> ... big question is does it end up as WG Note, as a Recommendation, as a pointer to something else?

... big question is does it end up as WG Note, as a Recommendation, as a pointer to something else?

14:18:49 <JeniT> FabGandon: how specific is it to eGov?

Fabien Gandon: how specific is it to eGov?

14:18:59 <JeniT> Sandro: right now taskforce in eGov IG

Sandro Hawke: right now taskforce in eGov IG

14:19:23 <JeniT> ... in doing taskforce charter

... in doing taskforce charter

14:19:34 <JeniT> ... said clearly applicable beyond government

... said clearly applicable beyond government

14:19:42 <JeniT> ... but let's take narrower scope for now

... but let's take narrower scope for now

14:20:01 <JeniT> ... can see that it could be broader

... can see that it could be broader

14:20:07 <JeniT> FabGandon: it could even be a task of the new RDF WG

Fabien Gandon: it could even be a task of the new RDF WG

14:20:14 <JeniT> Sandro: I think it's too late to go there now

Sandro Hawke: I think it's too late to go there now

14:20:20 <JeniT> ... or in the provenance WG

... or in the provenance WG

14:20:35 <JeniT> ... someone asked what's the difference between provenance and DCAT

... someone asked what's the difference between provenance and DCAT

14:20:49 <PhilA> xLooking at http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat

Phil Archer: xLooking at http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat

14:21:01 <JeniT> PhilA: one thing that is missing is refresh rate

Phil Archer: one thing that is missing is refresh rate

14:21:21 <JeniT> JeniT: think that's part of VoiD

Jeni Tennison: think that's part of VoiD

14:21:29 <JeniT> PhilA: ah right

Phil Archer: ah right

14:21:37 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary

14:21:43 <JeniT> ... Alex Tucker has done RDF dump of CKAN data

... Alex Tucker has done RDF dump of CKAN data

14:22:02 <JeniT> Sandro: Wiki page includes use cases, deliverables, minutes and participants: 28 participants

Sandro Hawke: Wiki page includes use cases, deliverables, minutes and participants: 28 participants

14:22:12 <JeniT> ... huge amount of interest

... huge amount of interest

14:22:29 <JeniT> ... reminded that Thomas was listening

... reminded that Thomas was listening

14:22:38 <JeniT> Thomas: got a little bit bored...

Thomas Bandholtz: got a little bit bored...

14:22:49 <JeniT> ... did so much work on data catalogs in Germany...

... did so much work on data catalogs in Germany...

14:23:01 <JeniT> ... ended up disappointing because no one used it

... ended up disappointing because no one used it

14:23:15 <JeniT> ... idea of having one data catalog as an access point is not a priority

... idea of having one data catalog as an access point is not a priority

14:23:24 <JeniT> ... in linked data domain discovery is following links

... in linked data domain discovery is following links

14:23:30 <JeniT> ... not looking at catalogs

... not looking at catalogs

14:23:40 <JeniT> ... it's OK, we need it, but...

... it's OK, we need it, but...

14:23:52 <JeniT> Sandro: you don't need 28 people to design a vocabulary

Sandro Hawke: you don't need 28 people to design a vocabulary

14:23:59 <JeniT> ... you want 3 people to do the work, and wide review

... you want 3 people to do the work, and wide review

14:24:09 <JeniT> ... you don't want big telecons with everyone who cares

... you don't want big telecons with everyone who cares

14:24:18 <JeniT> ... in general that's going to be true

... in general that's going to be true

14:24:35 <JeniT> ... sometimes there will be issues that you want discussion for, but a lot is design by a small group

... sometimes there will be issues that you want discussion for, but a lot is design by a small group

14:24:48 <JeniT> PhilA: I still think in terms of best practice document

Phil Archer: I still think in terms of best practice document

14:24:59 <JeniT> ... say 'use DCAT and VoiD to describe your catalog'

... say 'use DCAT and VoiD to describe your catalog'

14:25:08 <JeniT> Thomas: how is VoiD involved?

Thomas Bandholtz: how is VoiD involved?

14:25:20 <JeniT> Sandro: DCAT can be for non-RDF data, VoiD for RDF data

Sandro Hawke: DCAT can be for non-RDF data, VoiD for RDF data

14:26:11 <sandro> jeni: Some vocab (dcat) is about EVERY data set, and then some other vocabs are for certain kinds of data (eg geo about geo data, void about RDF data)

Jeni Tennison: Some vocab (dcat) is about EVERY data set, and then some other vocabs are for certain kinds of data (eg geo about geo data, void about RDF data) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:26:45 <sandro> PhilA: Neither void nor dcat covers refresh rate.

Phil Archer: Neither void nor dcat covers refresh rate. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

14:27:07 <JeniT> Sandro: I've never heard anyone assess quality or suitability of VoiD

Sandro Hawke: I've never heard anyone assess quality or suitability of VoiD

14:27:11 <JeniT> ... only game in town

... only game in town

14:27:58 <JeniT> ... if we're going to recommend a vocabulary, in a recommendation

... if we're going to recommend a vocabulary, in a recommendation

14:28:05 <JeniT> ... then we need implementation experience

... then we need implementation experience

14:28:10 <JeniT> ... which includes going through to consumers

... which includes going through to consumers

14:28:19 <JeniT> Thomas: VoiD has been designed without DCAT in mind

Thomas Bandholtz: VoiD has been designed without DCAT in mind

14:28:27 <JeniT> ... so didn't care about separation of concerns

... so didn't care about separation of concerns

14:28:36 <JeniT> ... I think someone has to make a new version of VoiD, to fit in

... I think someone has to make a new version of VoiD, to fit in

14:29:16 <JeniT> Sandro: we could ask @cygri whether he thinks a new version of VoiD is needed

Sandro Hawke: we could ask @cygri whether he thinks a new version of VoiD is needed

14:29:27 <JeniT> ... another thing on DCAT is I don't know how it relates to CKAN

... another thing on DCAT is I don't know how it relates to CKAN

14:29:40 <JeniT> ... I don't know how happy CKAN were with it

... I don't know how happy CKAN were with it

14:30:04 <JeniT> ... another force in play is the Sunlight Foundation in the US

... another force in play is the Sunlight Foundation in the US

14:30:18 <JeniT> ... they have done national data catalog that combines Federal, State and Local levels

... they have done national data catalog that combines Federal, State and Local levels

14:30:48 <JeniT> JeniT: do you need input about what to put in the charter?

Jeni Tennison: do you need input about what to put in the charter?

14:31:01 <JeniT> Sandro: I feel we should say a W3C Recommended vocabulary along the lines of DCAT

Sandro Hawke: I feel we should say a W3C Recommended vocabulary along the lines of DCAT

14:31:27 <JeniT> PhilA: so the group would create and maintain the vocabulary

Phil Archer: so the group would create and maintain the vocabulary

14:31:48 <JeniT> Sandro: I think DCAT should enable multiple catalogs, for a decentralised system

Sandro Hawke: I think DCAT should enable multiple catalogs, for a decentralised system

14:32:15 <JeniT> ... each data source should describe itself using DCAT

... each data source should describe itself using DCAT

14:33:49 <JeniT> JeniT: there's the set of terms (Dublin Core + DCAT + VoiD etc) and the namespace for DCAT

Jeni Tennison: there's the set of terms (Dublin Core + DCAT + VoiD etc) and the namespace for DCAT

14:34:19 <JeniT> FabGandon: when you look at FOAF, FOAFomatic really helped encourage its use

Fabien Gandon: when you look at FOAF, FOAFomatic really helped encourage its use

14:34:36 <JeniT> Sandro: OKFN has a form where they're asking people to fill out questionnaire about their government data

Sandro Hawke: OKFN has a form where they're asking people to fill out questionnaire about their government data

14:34:43 <JeniT> ... be nice if it gave back RDF

... be nice if it gave back RDF

14:35:14 <JeniT> PhilA: keen to do outreach as well

Phil Archer: keen to do outreach as well

14:35:20 <JeniT> ... ideally as part of this working group

... ideally as part of this working group

14:35:26 <JeniT> ... important part of the implementation

... important part of the implementation

14:35:58 <JeniT> Sandro: OK, add under Procurement Assistance

Sandro Hawke: OK, add under Procurement Assistance

14:36:10 <JeniT> BREAK TIME UNTIL 16:00

BREAK TIME UNTIL 16:00

15:05:09 <FabGandon> scribe: FabGandon

(No events recorded for 28 minutes)

(Scribe set to Fabien Gandon)

15:05:50 <FabGandon>   resuming on vocabularies.

resuming on vocabularies.

15:06:06 <FabGandon> ... JeniT: what are the next stages?

... JeniT: what are the next stages?

15:06:54 <FabGandon> Sandro: next stage is identify what can be done within the WG charter/timespan/force

Sandro Hawke: next stage is identify what can be done within the WG charter/timespan/force

15:07:44 <FabGandon> ... avoid shoot for too little or too much.

... avoid shoot for too little or too much.

15:08:05 <FabGandon> ... identify what can be done in other TF / WG.

... identify what can be done in other TF / WG.

15:08:37 <FabGandon> ... for vocs we could work on the basis of having an identified editor for each voc.

... for vocs we could work on the basis of having an identified editor for each voc.

15:08:50 <sandro> sandro: maybe the vocabs will each be time-permitting / nice-to-have

Sandro Hawke: maybe the vocabs will each be time-permitting / nice-to-have [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:09:04 <JeniT> http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html

Jeni Tennison: http://www.epimorphics.com/public/vocabulary/org.html

15:09:06 <FabGandon> JeniT: Organization Ontology

Jeni Tennison: Organization Ontology

15:10:00 <sandro> JeniT: foaf and vcard exist

Jeni Tennison: foaf and vcard exist [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:10:10 <FabGandon> ... Dave Reynolds put that together because nothing was putting togerther what we needed about Org.

... Dave Reynolds put that together because nothing was putting togerther what we needed about Org.

15:10:30 <FabGandon> ... so we took that and extended that for UK gov.

... so we took that and extended that for UK gov.

15:11:03 <FabGandon> Sandro: this is reusable in other organizations.

Sandro Hawke: this is reusable in other organizations.

15:11:32 <FabGandon> PhilA: very UK centric.

Phil Archer: very UK centric.

15:11:57 <FabGandon> Sandro: this should be blessed by W3C for others to use

Sandro Hawke: this should be blessed by W3C for others to use

15:12:13 <FabGandon> PhilA: an Org.org schema :-)

Phil Archer: an Org.org schema :-)

15:13:20 <martin> In Spain, we use it, and it was OK for our purpose (city council and departments)

Martin Alvarez: In Spain, we use it, and it was OK for our purpose (city council and departments)

15:13:21 <FabGandon> JeniT: change event is used to capture a change in an Organization, it is hook

Jeni Tennison: change event is used to capture a change in an Organization, it is hook

15:13:31 <sandro> JeniT: changeEvent hook for saying org1+org2 => org3

Jeni Tennison: changeEvent hook for saying org1+org2 => org3 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:14:22 <FabGandon> tban: very useful to follow changes in structures and names, acronyms, etc.

Thomas Bandholtz: very useful to follow changes in structures and names, acronyms, etc.

15:14:49 <FabGandon> PhilA: does your national library archives web sites?

Phil Archer: does your national library archives web sites?

15:15:46 <JeniT> FabGandon: In France, we have law that says we must archive every French official media channel

Fabien Gandon: In France, we have law that says we must archive every French official media channel [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ]

15:15:51 <JeniT> ... and we don't know how to do that

Jeni Tennison: ... and we don't know how to do that

15:16:45 <FabGandon> Sandro: question of ontology engineering process and the way to go for a new voc.

Sandro Hawke: question of ontology engineering process and the way to go for a new voc.

15:17:22 <FabGandon> tban: I wouldn't use UML, this is not object-oriented work

Thomas Bandholtz: I wouldn't use UML, this is not object-oriented work

15:17:33 <FabGandon> ... I use TopBraid composer

... I use TopBraid composer

15:17:57 <FabGandon> ... nice figures.

... nice figures.

15:18:38 <FabGandon> ... Richard came up with SDMX but not enough sem. web oriented.

... Richard came up with SDMX but not enough sem. web oriented.

15:19:38 <FabGandon> JeniT: we work with Richard on that because SDMX is important in the statitician community

Jeni Tennison: we work with Richard on that because SDMX is important in the statitician community

15:19:57 <sandro> jeni: ONS used SDMX already, so it was opportunistic for us to use it.

Jeni Tennison: ONS used SDMX already, so it was opportunistic for us to use it. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:20:27 <FabGandon> ... SDMX is hard but may be necessary.

... SDMX is hard but may be necessary.

15:21:02 <FabGandon> Sandro: we haven't solve the evolution story of how we move from a voc to the next.

Sandro Hawke: we haven't solve the evolution story of how we move from a voc to the next.

15:21:49 <FabGandon> JeniT: also hard to know when a voc is stable enough to be really used.

Jeni Tennison: also hard to know when a voc is stable enough to be really used.

15:22:17 <FabGandon> ... check list of what you expect from a voc.

... check list of what you expect from a voc.

15:22:26 <sandro> jeni: checklist item: have documentation which is good, have ref guide, examples, etc

Jeni Tennison: checklist item: have documentation which is good, have ref guide, examples, etc [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:22:48 <FabGandon> ... e.g. it must have ref guide, examples, managed by an org with a longevity, etc.

... e.g. it must have ref guide, examples, managed by an org with a longevity, etc.

15:23:19 <FabGandon> PhilA: for FOAF for instance the longevity of the domain is a problem.

Phil Archer: for FOAF for instance the longevity of the domain is a problem.

15:24:17 <JeniT> FabGandon: reading through the minutes yesterday, there's a good thing happening in eGov in that we have very stable bodies involved

Fabien Gandon: reading through the minutes yesterday, there's a good thing happening in eGov in that we have very stable bodies involved [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ]

15:24:24 <JeniT> ... INRIA is a government institute

Jeni Tennison: ... INRIA is a government institute

15:24:35 <JeniT> ... so we have hosting that is very stable

Jeni Tennison: ... so we have hosting that is very stable

15:24:42 <JeniT> ... people believe we will continue to exist

Jeni Tennison: ... people believe we will continue to exist

15:25:03 <JeniT> ... won't want to use a namespace hosted by the UK

Jeni Tennison: ... won't want to use a namespace hosted by the UK

15:25:20 <JeniT> ... but one hosted by a government would have longevity

Jeni Tennison: ... but one hosted by a government would have longevity

15:25:46 <JeniT> ... We tried several things, including knowledge engineering approach

Jeni Tennison: ... We tried several things, including knowledge engineering approach

15:25:55 <JeniT> ... tried VoCamp approach, where people come with a need for a vocabulary

Jeni Tennison: ... tried VoCamp approach, where people come with a need for a vocabulary

15:26:01 <JeniT> ... break up in small groups and hack

Jeni Tennison: ... break up in small groups and hack

15:26:07 <JeniT> ... some of these were successful

Jeni Tennison: ... some of these were successful

15:26:20 <sandro> FabGandon: We tried Knowledge Engineering - limits, VoCamp fairly successful, ...

Fabien Gandon: We tried Knowledge Engineering - limits, VoCamp fairly successful, ... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:26:28 <JeniT> ... depends on scope of vocabulary

Jeni Tennison: ... depends on scope of vocabulary

15:26:45 <FabGandon> Sandro: this a question for the chairs and the group.

Sandro Hawke: this a question for the chairs and the group.

15:26:54 <FabGandon> ... any other org ontology.

... any other org ontology.

15:27:04 <FabGandon> JeniT: there is a blog post from Dave

Jeni Tennison: there is a blog post from Dave

15:27:11 <sandro> sandro: I'll just link to DER's blog post, with its references

Sandro Hawke: I'll just link to DER's blog post, with its references [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:27:25 <JeniT> http://www.epimorphics.com/web/wiki/organization-ontology-requirements

Jeni Tennison: http://www.epimorphics.com/web/wiki/organization-ontology-requirements

15:28:00 <sandro> bandholtz: what about sameAs inflation?

Thomas Bandholtz: what about sameAs inflation? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:28:09 <FabGandon> tban: the inflation of sameAs, and misuse of sameAs.

Thomas Bandholtz: the inflation of sameAs, and misuse of sameAs.

15:28:34 <FabGandon> ... I wouldn't sameAs, but what else.

... I wouldn't sameAs, but what else.

15:28:59 <sandro> bandholtz: mapping vocab like skos but without inferring it's a skos concept.

Thomas Bandholtz: mapping vocab like skos but without inferring it's a skos concept. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:29:45 <JeniT> FabGandon: subClassOf subPropertyOf also used in alignment

Fabien Gandon: subClassOf subPropertyOf also used in alignment [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ]

15:29:53 <FabGandon> ... provide a mapping voc with only properties and no classes to avoid inferences

... provide a mapping voc with only properties and no classes to avoid inferences

15:30:17 <sandro> sandro: bad sameAs is just bad data

Sandro Hawke: bad sameAs is just bad data [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:30:54 <sandro> FabGandon: in datalift, we are thinking about how to do mapping, from sameAs onto procedural declaration.

Fabien Gandon: in datalift, we are thinking about how to do mapping, from sameAs onto procedural declaration. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:31:31 <sandro> FabGandon: okaam huge eu project on this -- efficient sameAs resolution for semweb.    give uri, it gives back ones which might be equivalent.

Fabien Gandon: okaam huge eu project on this -- efficient sameAs resolution for semweb. give uri, it gives back ones which might be equivalent. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:31:59 <sandro> FabGandon: (let's stay away from this...)

Fabien Gandon: (let's stay away from this...) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:32:21 <FabGandon> http://www.okkam.org/

http://www.okkam.org/

15:33:40 <FabGandon> tban: when we try to link e.g GEMET and German Thesaurus we need the same in SKOS without domain and range.

Thomas Bandholtz: when we try to link e.g GEMET and German Thesaurus we need the same in SKOS without domain and range.

15:35:29 <sandro> jeni: a school is not a skos:Concept according to the SKOS spec

Jeni Tennison: a school is not a skos:Concept according to the SKOS spec [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:35:36 <sandro> sandro: skos is just broken.  :-(

Sandro Hawke: skos is just broken. :-( [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:36:10 <FabGandon> JeniT: same name for a local authority vs. the area

Jeni Tennison: same name for a local authority vs. the area

15:36:41 <FabGandon> Sandro: you need to formalize properly.

Sandro Hawke: you need to formalize properly.

15:37:31 <FabGandon> tban: we should include the problems aboout alignment to be discussed in the charter

Thomas Bandholtz: we should include the problems aboout alignment to be discussed in the charter

15:39:28 <FabGandon> JeniT: if RDF 1.1 don't want to do it we have to come up with a convincing scenario

Jeni Tennison: if RDF 1.1 don't want to do it we have to come up with a convincing scenario

15:40:22 <FabGandon> Sandro: the key thing for people is to see if we can stabilize FOAF.

Sandro Hawke: the key thing for people is to see if we can stabilize FOAF.

15:40:26 <sandro> jeni: important to understand how foaf works with vcard

Jeni Tennison: important to understand how foaf works with vcard [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:40:53 <FabGandon> tban: what about foaf+ssl?

Thomas Bandholtz: what about foaf+ssl?

15:41:20 <FabGandon> JeniT: I wondered if we should include something about identitity in the eGov WG.

Jeni Tennison: I wondered if we should include something about identitity in the eGov WG.

15:42:04 <sandro> 4.4 Statistical/Data Cube Datasets

Sandro Hawke: 4.4 Statistical/Data Cube Datasets

15:42:23 <FabGandon> sandro: statistical, so far there is a sub-set of SDMX

Sandro Hawke: statistical, so far there is a sub-set of SDMX

15:42:32 <sandro> sandro: I'm hearing there's a subset of SDMX, cube, that's pretty good.

Sandro Hawke: I'm hearing there's a subset of SDMX, cube, that's pretty good. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:42:38 <JeniT> http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html

Jeni Tennison: http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/html/cube.html

15:42:48 <sandro> PhilA: It's good for describing what you see in CSVs.

Phil Archer: It's good for describing what you see in CSVs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:43:02 <FabGandon> PhilA: the cube ontology is good to describe the sort of data you find in CSV file.

Phil Archer: the cube ontology is good to describe the sort of data you find in CSV file.

15:43:55 <FabGandon> JeniT: Cube comes from the hypercube structure of the data.

Jeni Tennison: Cube comes from the hypercube structure of the data.

15:44:09 <FabGandon> JeniT: an observation is a cell in the cube

Jeni Tennison: an observation is a cell in the cube

15:44:27 <FabGandon> ... each dataset is described by a dataset def

... each dataset is described by a dataset def

15:45:38 <FabGandon> ... for statistical data, payment data, etc. any thing you put in a Spreadsheet

... for statistical data, payment data, etc. any thing you put in a Spreadsheet

15:45:49 <FabGandon> ... we use it a lot

... we use it a lot

15:47:03 <FabGandon> sandro: how can be sure this meets most needs?

Sandro Hawke: how can be sure this meets most needs?

15:47:33 <sandro> sandro: if we make this a Rec, who might object?      Among people who buy into SDMX & RDF already....

Sandro Hawke: if we make this a Rec, who might object? Among people who buy into SDMX & RDF already.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:03 <sandro> PhilA: Statisticians might find this reduces too much.

Phil Archer: Statisticians might find this reduces too much. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:32 <FabGandon> Sandro: if we need more of SDMX can we extend it?

Sandro Hawke: if we need more of SDMX can we extend it?

15:48:44 <sandro> Jeni: that was the goal, yes.

Jeni Tennison: that was the goal, yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:48 <FabGandon> JeniT: yes it was designed to be extended

Jeni Tennison: yes it was designed to be extended

15:49:07 <FabGandon> tban: we use it for measurment data

Thomas Bandholtz: we use it for measurment data

15:50:11 <FabGandon> JeniT: we wanted to publish statistic for a larger audience than the statistician community

Jeni Tennison: we wanted to publish statistic for a larger audience than the statistician community

15:50:37 <FabGandon> sandro: if we want to change these schema, how do we do that? what would be the process?

Sandro Hawke: if we want to change these schema, how do we do that? what would be the process?

15:51:02 <FabGandon> JeniT: feel free to take it !

Jeni Tennison: feel free to take it !

15:51:43 <FabGandon> sandro: it rare that somebody does this kind of work and does follow it as an editor of the Rec.

Sandro Hawke: it rare that somebody does this kind of work and does follow it as an editor of the Rec.

15:52:12 <FabGandon> sandro: Data Cube seems important.

Sandro Hawke: Data Cube seems important.

15:52:58 <sandro> [edit] 4.5 Data Quality, Timeliness, Status

Sandro Hawke: [edit] 4.5 Data Quality, Timeliness, Status

15:53:48 <FabGandon> JeniT: I am sure that voiD as something about temporal validity

Jeni Tennison: I am sure that voiD as something about temporal validity

15:53:50 <sandro> jeni: we use dc:temporal for expressing the temporal range for which the data is true

Jeni Tennison: we use dc:temporal for expressing the temporal range for which the data is true [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:03 <FabGandon> ... we have our own small voc for that

... we have our own small voc for that

15:54:09 <sandro> jeni: we use our own data.gov.uk for draft-ness

Jeni Tennison: we use our own data.gov.uk for draft-ness [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:15 <FabGandon> ... nothing on data quality at the moment

... nothing on data quality at the moment

15:54:28 <FabGandon> PhilA: can't find this in voiD

Phil Archer: can't find this in voiD

15:54:38 <FabGandon> JeniT: in must be in RSS then

Jeni Tennison: in must be in RSS then

15:55:04 <sandro> PhilA: Who is responsible for cleaning it up?   Who will update it, and when?

Phil Archer: Who is responsible for cleaning it up? Who will update it, and when? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:55:11 <FabGandon> PhilA: need to know if the data I am using now will be here tomorrow

Phil Archer: need to know if the data I am using now will be here tomorrow

15:55:19 <sandro> PhilA: Ooften the data comes from screen-scraping!

Phil Archer: Ooften the data comes from screen-scraping! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:55:27 <FabGandon> ... need to know how often data updated

... need to know how often data updated

15:55:52 <sandro> FabGandon: This is in Provenance -- an expiration

Fabien Gandon: This is in Provenance -- an expiration [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:56:23 <FabGandon> JeniT: this is new work probably

Jeni Tennison: this is new work probably

15:56:27 <sandro> JeniT: I think this is new work, much less baked than data cube

Jeni Tennison: I think this is new work, much less baked than data cube [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:56:50 <FabGandon> sandro: the WG could provide such voc.

Sandro Hawke: the WG could provide such voc.

15:57:04 <FabGandon> JeniT: it fits under dcat

Jeni Tennison: it fits under dcat

15:57:05 <sandro> jeni: This goes under dcat -- it applies to data sets.

Jeni Tennison: This goes under dcat -- it applies to data sets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:57:42 <sandro> FabGandon: Granularity might be small -- some bit of the data changes often, some bit doesn't.

Fabien Gandon: Granularity might be small -- some bit of the data changes often, some bit doesn't. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:59:10 <sandro> FabGandon: this might not be about the dataset, it might be about one subgraph within the dataset.

Fabien Gandon: this might not be about the dataset, it might be about one subgraph within the dataset. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:59:49 <PhilA> rrsagent, draft minutes

Phil Archer: rrsagent, draft minutes

15:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

16:00:05 <sandro> bandholtz: In the Gazettier, when we have changes in communities, merging, the official service just drops the old communities.    We don't drop them, we mark them expired.

Thomas Bandholtz: In the Gazettier, when we have changes in communities, merging, the official service just drops the old communities. We don't drop them, we mark them expired. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:16 <sandro> bandholtz: dcat should describe your policies about such things.

Thomas Bandholtz: dcat should describe your policies about such things. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:00:22 <FabGandon> tban: the policy should be also described on the dcat level.

Thomas Bandholtz: the policy should be also described on the dcat level.

16:01:18 <FabGandon> sandro: the granularity problem might be more general with dcat and dataset.

Sandro Hawke: the granularity problem might be more general with dcat and dataset.

16:01:37 <FabGandon> ... granularity can be a political game.

... granularity can be a political game.

16:02:36 <sandro> sandro: so if dcat can handle the gran. then this can be folded in.

Sandro Hawke: so if dcat can handle the gran. then this can be folded in. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:02:52 <sandro> 4.6 Assumptions/Basis/Comparability of Data

Sandro Hawke: 4.6 Assumptions/Basis/Comparability of Data

16:03:17 <FabGandon> JeniT: we need to know if we can compare two values.

Jeni Tennison: we need to know if we can compare two values.

16:03:22 <sandro> jeni: In statistical data they really care if you can compare two values, because defn of some bit in your data changed.

Jeni Tennison: In statistical data they really care if you can compare two values, because defn of some bit in your data changed. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:03:26 <FabGandon> ... e.g. after a policy change.

... e.g. after a policy change.

16:04:09 <sandro> JeniT: annotate a qb:observation to say this is not comparable, etc.

Jeni Tennison: annotate a qb:observation to say this is not comparable, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:04:28 <sandro> JeniT: Vocab for classiying these kinds of annotations

Jeni Tennison: Vocab for classiying these kinds of annotations [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:04:36 <FabGandon> PhilA: we have a 10 month data vs. an 11 month data

Phil Archer: we have a 10 month data vs. an 11 month data

16:04:53 <FabGandon> tban: different methods in differents countries.

Thomas Bandholtz: different methods in differents countries.

16:04:55 <sandro> bandholtz: lining maps up between country, INSPIRE Harmonization effort.

Thomas Bandholtz: lining maps up between country, INSPIRE Harmonization effort. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:33 <sandro> FabGandon: The notion of an unemployed person in France is totally different than in some other countries -- not comparable.

Fabien Gandon: The notion of an unemployed person in France is totally different than in some other countries -- not comparable. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:55 <FabGandon> JeniT: encourage people to use different terms when they use different notions

Jeni Tennison: encourage people to use different terms when they use different notions

16:06:01 <sandro> JeniT: Sometime you just mean datafr:unemployment has a different URI than datauk:unemployment

Jeni Tennison: Sometime you just mean datafr:unemployment has a different URI than datauk:unemployment [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:06:27 <FabGandon> ... there may be some matches but when we use the same URI it IS the same thing

... there may be some matches but when we use the same URI it IS the same thing

16:06:50 <sandro> JeniT: this is more about same vocab, same dimension, ...    this is to annotate where it's different.

Jeni Tennison: this is more about same vocab, same dimension, ... this is to annotate where it's different. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:07:45 <FabGandon> JeniT: at least we should be able to say "this is a statement about comparability".

Jeni Tennison: at least we should be able to say "this is a statement about comparability".

16:08:03 <sandro> JeniT: This is for categories of ways to annotate observations.

Jeni Tennison: This is for categories of ways to annotate observations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:08:22 <FabGandon> tban: using different URIs is different from using different terms.

Thomas Bandholtz: using different URIs is different from using different terms.

16:09:15 <FabGandon> sandro: no candidate voc on that right now?

Sandro Hawke: no candidate voc on that right now?

16:09:16 <JeniT> http://sdmx.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/01_sdmx_cog_annex_1_cdc_2009.pdf

Jeni Tennison: http://sdmx.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/01_sdmx_cog_annex_1_cdc_2009.pdf

16:09:33 <FabGandon> JeniT: some of the SDMX voc may be relevant

Jeni Tennison: some of the SDMX voc may be relevant

16:09:55 <FabGandon> ... Dave has mapped those onto a voc which could be a candidate

... Dave has mapped those onto a voc which could be a candidate

16:10:15 <JeniT> http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/vocab/sdmx-concept.ttl

Jeni Tennison: http://publishing-statistical-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/specs/src/main/vocab/sdmx-concept.ttl

16:10:56 <sandro> [edit] 4.7 Describing Visualization and Presentation

Sandro Hawke: [edit] 4.7 Describing Visualization and Presentation

16:11:10 <sandro> fresnel

Sandro Hawke: fresnel

16:11:40 <FabGandon> http://www.w3.org/2005/04/fresnel-info/

http://www.w3.org/2005/04/fresnel-info/

16:12:36 <sandro> sandro: not hearing a lot of interest/experience on this one.

Sandro Hawke: not hearing a lot of interest/experience on this one. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:12:45 <sandro> FabGandon: Fresnel has a huge potential

Fabien Gandon: Fresnel has a huge potential [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:46 <FabGandon> sandro: design pattern for URIs

Sandro Hawke: design pattern for URIs

16:13:53 <sandro> 5.1 Design Patterns for URIs

Sandro Hawke: 5.1 Design Patterns for URIs

16:14:12 <FabGandon> JeniT: updated version:

Jeni Tennison: updated version:

16:14:22 <JeniT> http://data.gov.uk/resources/uris

Jeni Tennison: http://data.gov.uk/resources/uris

16:14:41 <FabGandon> ... it takes a different kind of angle.

... it takes a different kind of angle.

16:16:02 <FabGandon> sandro: huge design space, how much we want to expand or focus the design space

Sandro Hawke: huge design space, how much we want to expand or focus the design space

16:16:33 <FabGandon> ... should we give all the options or pescribe some good practices?

... should we give all the options or pescribe some good practices?

16:16:45 <sandro> PhilA: use of id, 303 to doc, SHOULD be in LD

Phil Archer: use of id, 303 to doc, SHOULD be in LD [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:17:07 <PhilA> I mean - the pattern http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/co breaks down as

Phil Archer: I mean - the pattern http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/department/co breaks down as

16:17:11 <sandro> JeniT: sayig do 4.2 from coolURIs

Jeni Tennison: sayig do 4.2 from coolURIs [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:17:39 <PhilA> {sector}.data.gov.uk/id/{department}/unique_identifier

Phil Archer: {sector}.data.gov.uk/id/{department}/unique_identifier

16:18:02 <FabGandon> JeniT: sometimes the pattern does work well

Jeni Tennison: sometimes the pattern does work well

16:18:23 <PhilA> If you dereference that, the /id/ gets replaced by /doc/ as part of the HTTP 303 (see other) response, and that leads to a document that describes the original identified thing

Phil Archer: If you dereference that, the /id/ gets replaced by /doc/ as part of the HTTP 303 (see other) response, and that leads to a document that describes the original identified thing

16:18:27 <sandro> JeniT: Although that pattern works really well in some circumstances, it doesnt for others.      eg for the people in the org structures, we dont have a good URI pattern.    so we end up using hash URIs in the datasets, thinking they might be linked up later.

Jeni Tennison: Although that pattern works really well in some circumstances, it doesnt for others. eg for the people in the org structures, we dont have a good URI pattern. so we end up using hash URIs in the datasets, thinking they might be linked up later. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:18:32 <FabGandon> ... we used # URIs depending on the dataset.

... we used # URIs depending on the dataset.

16:18:44 <sandro> JeniT: just using pattern 4.2 doesn't always work well.

Jeni Tennison: just using pattern 4.2 doesn't always work well. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:18:46 <FabGandon> ... not simple to just say use that pattern.

... not simple to just say use that pattern.

16:20:02 <sandro> FabGandon: need keys  :-

Fabien Gandon: need keys :- [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:06 <sandro> FabGandon: need keys  :-)

Fabien Gandon: need keys :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:19 <sandro> sandro: Just get everyone to mint URIs for themselves  :-)

Sandro Hawke: Just get everyone to mint URIs for themselves :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:40 <FabGandon> tban: the original URL of TimBL also described what you should not do.

Thomas Bandholtz: the original URL of TimBL also described what you should not do.

16:21:15 <sandro> bandholtz: '98 cool uris, don't put classifications/datatypes into URI, or other things that would make them change.

Thomas Bandholtz: '98 cool uris, don't put classifications/datatypes into URI, or other things that would make them change. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:22:20 <sandro> FabGandon: Don't forget there are scenarios where you want to do the opposite -- to anonymous people.

Fabien Gandon: Don't forget there are scenarios where you want to do the opposite -- to anonymous people. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:23:56 <sandro> bandholtz: I've come to prefer totally opaque URIs.

Thomas Bandholtz: I've come to prefer totally opaque URIs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:23:59 <FabGandon> tban: generally I prefer URI that don't tell anything by themselves

Thomas Bandholtz: generally I prefer URI that don't tell anything by themselves

16:24:54 <FabGandon> sandro: what should we do?

Sandro Hawke: what should we do?

16:25:11 <JeniT> FabGandon: it could be 'follow the guidelines of the LOD group'

Fabien Gandon: it could be 'follow the guidelines of the LOD group' [ Scribe Assist by Jeni Tennison ]

16:25:27 <FabGandon> sandro: one output could be follow 4.2

Sandro Hawke: one output could be follow 4.2

16:25:59 <sandro> sandro: maybe a flowchart, even!

Sandro Hawke: maybe a flowchart, even! [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:26:28 <sandro> JeniT: I found we needed design patterns not just for schools, but also for vocabs, concept schemes, datasets.

Jeni Tennison: I found we needed design patterns not just for schools, but also for vocabs, concept schemes, datasets. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:26:34 <FabGandon> JeniT: we also need design patterns for URIs for schemas

Jeni Tennison: we also need design patterns for URIs for schemas

16:27:47 <FabGandon> sandro: versioning of dataset crosses with the temporal point before.

Sandro Hawke: versioning of dataset crosses with the temporal point before.

16:29:12 <sandro> sandro: shoud I fold this into designing-URI, or timeliness vocab ?

Sandro Hawke: shoud I fold this into designing-URI, or timeliness vocab ? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:29:32 <FabGandon> tban: what does versioning mean here, e.g. statiscal data changes every year

Thomas Bandholtz: what does versioning mean here, e.g. statiscal data changes every year

16:29:33 <sandro> bandholtz: Every year has year more --- discussion of versioning.

Thomas Bandholtz: Every year has year more --- discussion of versioning. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:29:44 <sandro> bandholtz: verionsing of vocab, too.

Thomas Bandholtz: verionsing of vocab, too. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:29:59 <sandro> Jeni: how you design URIs, how you design the data....

Jeni Tennison: how you design URIs, how you design the data.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:30:37 <sandro> 5.3 Change Propagation and Notification

Sandro Hawke: 5.3 Change Propagation and Notification

16:30:50 <sandro> dady -- dataset dynamic

Sandro Hawke: dady -- dataset dynamic

16:31:16 <sandro> I think of this as protocol,

Sandro Hawke: I think of this as protocol,

16:31:40 <sandro> FabGandon: RSS feed of changes -- talis changest vocab

Fabien Gandon: RSS feed of changes -- talis changest vocab [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:31:48 <sandro> JeniT: Sparql push

Jeni Tennison: Sparql push [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:31:52 <JeniT> http://code.google.com/p/sparqlpush/

Jeni Tennison: http://code.google.com/p/sparqlpush/

16:32:56 <JeniT> http://esw.w3.org/DatasetDynamics

Jeni Tennison: http://esw.w3.org/DatasetDynamics

16:33:04 <sandro> seems out of scope

Sandro Hawke: seems out of scope

16:33:09 <sandro> JeniT: we need to do it anyway

Jeni Tennison: we need to do it anyway [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:33:27 <sandro> JeniT: (we = data.gov.uk)

Jeni Tennison: (we = data.gov.uk) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:33:28 <FabGandon> PhilA: also about SPARQL Push

Phil Archer: also about SPARQL Push

16:34:01 <FabGandon> JeniT: we need that for data that we are publishing every week

Jeni Tennison: we need that for data that we are publishing every week

16:34:13 <sandro> JeniT: We'll see data published on a weekly basis, so we need

Jeni Tennison: We'll see data published on a weekly basis, so we need [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:34:13 <FabGandon> ... we need to a a design pattern for that

... we need to a a design pattern for that

16:34:39 <FabGandon> sandro: just publishing the new data is not enough?

Sandro Hawke: just publishing the new data is not enough?

16:34:44 <FabGandon> JeniT: no

Jeni Tennison: no

16:35:24 <FabGandon> ... links back to the named graphs.

... links back to the named graphs.

16:36:34 <sandro> FabGandon: It's too big for this....

Fabien Gandon: It's too big for this.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:36:57 <sandro> 5.4 Distributed Query

Sandro Hawke: 5.4 Distributed Query

16:37:22 <FabGandon> sandro: too big to be handled here.

Sandro Hawke: too big to be handled here.

16:37:29 <sandro> same as above -- needs to be done, too big for us.

Sandro Hawke: same as above -- needs to be done, too big for us.

16:37:54 <FabGandon> SPARQL 1.1 has some elements of answer.

SPARQL 1.1 has some elements of answer.

16:38:09 <sandro> JeniT: Maybe it goes into procurement guidelines, eg Sparql 1.1 service descriptions suitable fo rhtis

Jeni Tennison: Maybe it goes into procurement guidelines, eg Sparql 1.1 service descriptions suitable fo rhtis [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:38:16 <sandro> 5.5 Developer-Friendly API and Serialization

Sandro Hawke: 5.5 Developer-Friendly API and Serialization

16:38:23 <sandro> linked-data api

Sandro Hawke: linked-data api

16:39:01 <FabGandon> sandro: JSON syntax for RDF should be part of the charter of RDF 1.1

Sandro Hawke: JSON syntax for RDF should be part of the charter of RDF 1.1

16:39:25 <sandro> PhilA: should be relatively easy to get out the door

Phil Archer: should be relatively easy to get out the door [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:39:57 <sandro> JeniT: Yes, 3 impls, could be fast, but does need wider review -- eg for impementations.

Jeni Tennison: Yes, 3 impls, could be fast, but does need wider review -- eg for impementations. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:40:46 <FabGandon> PhilA: it is manageable and we should pursue this

Phil Archer: it is manageable and we should pursue this

16:40:47 <sandro> PhilA: this is really important, and doable.

Phil Archer: this is really important, and doable. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:40:59 <FabGandon> ... important in terms of deployment

... important in terms of deployment

16:41:20 <FabGandon> sandro: will still exist even if we don't do anything within W3C

Sandro Hawke: will still exist even if we don't do anything within W3C

16:41:44 <FabGandon> PhilA: from a visibility point of you this is important

Phil Archer: from a visibility point of you this is important

16:42:48 <sandro> sandro: I'm worried about arbitrary decisions in the design coming back to be a problem in the WG

Sandro Hawke: I'm worried about arbitrary decisions in the design coming back to be a problem in the WG [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:42:59 <sandro> JeniT: the JSON might be a problem.

Jeni Tennison: the JSON might be a problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:43:39 <sandro> JeniT: I think we're a lot of the way there, but leaning towards its own WG.

Jeni Tennison: I think we're a lot of the way there, but leaning towards its own WG. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:44:26 <FabGandon> PhilA: need to talk about outreach

Phil Archer: need to talk about outreach

16:44:31 <sandro> [edit] 2.5 Outreach

Sandro Hawke: [edit] 2.5 Outreach

16:44:41 <FabGandon> ... it needs to happen somehow

... it needs to happen somehow

16:44:50 <sandro> PhilA: somehow this has to happen, perhaps via EU funding

Phil Archer: somehow this has to happen, perhaps via EU funding [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:45:10 <FabGandon> ... some way to distribute the output of the group among the governments

... some way to distribute the output of the group among the governments

16:46:05 <FabGandon> sandro: counter argument: the focus of the WG is the how not the why.

Sandro Hawke: counter argument: the focus of the WG is the how not the why.

16:46:44 <FabGandon> ... the demos of the "how" will make the job of the people doing the "why" easyer

... the demos of the "how" will make the job of the people doing the "why" easyer

16:47:10 <sandro> robin: In general, WGs are pretty bad at selling their own stuff, being so involved in the technical work.

Robin Berjon: In general, WGs are pretty bad at selling their own stuff, being so involved in the technical work. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:47:50 <sandro> ... people who were writing great blogs went silent when they joined the WG.

Sandro Hawke: ... people who were writing great blogs went silent when they joined the WG.

16:47:55 <FabGandon> robin: may be outreach should happen outside the WG

Robin Berjon: may be outreach should happen outside the WG

16:49:21 <FabGandon> sandro: could still be included in the charter.

Sandro Hawke: could still be included in the charter.

16:50:03 <sandro> PhilA: marketing is important in making markets

Phil Archer: marketing is important in making markets [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:52:05 <FabGandon> sandro: I don't have any exact data about the number of members for the WG.

Sandro Hawke: I don't have any exact data about the number of members for the WG.

16:55:24 <sandro> JeniT: great value to have new folks in WG, so people experience having to explain this stuff

Jeni Tennison: great value to have new folks in WG, so people experience having to explain this stuff [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:09:04 <PhilA> rrsagent, generate minutes

(No events recorded for 13 minutes)

Phil Archer: rrsagent, generate minutes

17:09:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-egov-minutes.html PhilA



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This revision (#1) generated 2010-11-17 18:46:24 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None