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EOWG Meeting, December 21, 2001


  1. Doyle Saylord (scribe)
  2. Kathleen Anderson
  3. Judy Brewer (chair)
  4. Henk Snetselaar
  5. Carlos Velasco
  6. Helle Bjarno
  7. Andrew Arch
  8. Sarah Horton
  9. Audrey Gorman
  10. William Loughborough

Implementation Plan

Judy Revision of the implementation plan 19 december version of the plan. Sarah describe the changes you made,

Sarah in the change log, and the larger issues, perhaps visually on the page labeling the various navigation schemes. I did that so that the page navigation would hold together, I gave that a background color, and the same color for the sections it links to. One area I spent a lot ot time develop accessible web sites. Issues about allowing for redesign sites. To deal with those two scenarios at once. The specific were questions we could go through.

Judy start with the navigation scheme to get some feedback on that. I see a llittle more of what you were suggesting the last time. It now starts by saying page links. Visually folded so that people can get an 'in the face' version. Above that in the right corner, a resource external WAI links, my reaction is that not all are WAI links, also the other directions was putting back the WAI … Let see what other reactions, page links or WAI links

Kathleen, I like it, I like the way you know what the different sections of the plan, I know when Jaws reads this it will say the link is on this page. I wonder if sighted users need something also. I like the way it is spoken out.

Judy doesn't page links tell you that. Another wording,

Kathleen no

Judy We use on the team web site, we use here and there. That is a little informal.

Kathleen you could borrow from books and say content.

Andrew could this page work?

Kathleen that is right,

Judy page contents is very clear, this page has very clear

Henk if one of the links

Audrey, comes in

Judy I agree with you Henk I think that is confusing with that hanging out there.

Henk a bit further …

Judy lets keep focusing this label of the nav bar issue. A few people have commented on the page links, a few people have commented on this and ask for reactions to WAI links. Put out the straw person positon, whatever we do we need to add WAI in front of site map, need a consistent order on all the resources. W3C translations when we get the search function back we will have a fifth item, W3C search, One concern I have this section will stack very high, I don't think we need the WAI links label. That section would be self evident. That other things are relevant we don't need

Andrew I follow that suggestion, especially too long

Doyle I agree,

Carlos, I would put attribute a title in the links more useful for jaws, more useful

Judy talking about the WAI nav?

Carlos, I would use the intro section, belongs to the page, the first nav link is typical resource links

Judy remove the visible link, go back to something last Friday, one or two folks were saying. With the page design, and using the title attributes available to screen readers we can get consistent across the site, there continues to be a problem with navigating through the sieve at the head of the docuemtn you actually lose the links can't access the links, when talking about the tabbing we need to redesign, a little block on the right. No way to get to the left hand logo links. Sarah has got us back into navigation what if we redesign so that it was almost a set of buttons, across the top, link right next to the logos. How hard to do Wells Fargo Services Company

Kathleen which browsers and which version,

Helle netscape browser, with old opera no problems,

Sarah I remember on the software selction page. Until I saw that the third level of navigation was confusing. A third type of navigation.

Judy that is a good point the first issue on her list was the navigation issue, lets keep our heads on the implementation Go to the selecting software page, the triple navigating, can people find that,

Kathleen, I am using opera five,

Judy that is what should happen, I know a way to fix that, I think I know why that is happening. That is little scramble, the real problem is in netscape, 4 etc. Can't access the links

Carlos any version of netscape will not get position right, the implemenation for style sheets is not supported.

Judy Carlos why does it repress certain stuff,

Carlos I think some of the images overlap with links, if you want to support a browser that is the only choice you have.

Judy you said something with overlapping with a link?

Carlos the logo, and the right alignment the text, I think the do not support correctly overwriting the image with a white line on the text. I tryied many texts in Netscape 4 and it never works,

Kathleen I have it Netscape 4.8, and the invisible…

Judy the invisible link is in different places as an experiment the concern is the complete suppression, let me ask for some direct feedback of one or two design possibilities, if we were somehow to design the top of the document what one would see:

so three standard positions, one at the top, WAI links always under the title of doc, and one intermediate, Design that to consistently define their presence?

Helle they would go underneath the title,

Judy above the title as they are now,

Audrey looking more button like?

Judy I don't know what they ought to look like, What I am saying is that the head maybe that part should be a bar across the top, the suite nav, that might be able to on the far right, Carlos if on the far right a bloc, the trouble with the header is a div, with a force right, the suite nav completely forced to the right, and nothing to the left.

Carlos with netscape, but not anything else?

Helle under title to the right take a lot space, I kind of like the way it is laid out left to right, resrouce put in a bar, then change the size of the screen would look weird.

Sarah I don't think would look weird, they are global links, visually that would do that, using a background color, would stay together, if this is the navigation put the name of the suite with a colon and you would have it.

Judy we tried the latter approach with the training suite, maybe we haven't tried that,

Audrey I have to leave, and may come back,

Judy I don't want to belabor I appreciate the feedback options, and ask for more comments and then go on to the next items on Sarah's agenda. I am hearing now, some interest in exploring a docment nav header that would line stuff across the top, hopefully minimizing word wrap, and secondly on documents where there is suite nav that would be above title, name of the suite come first followed by a colon, and under that title, under that page nav links. Visible lable on any of these, I did hear a strong request for using the title attribute element, and I am hearing trying to control this by design, can I hear feedback?

Andrew I still like the explicit label at the start of the navigation line,

Judy what might be the explicit label be, suite nav sounds jargony.

Sarah use the name of the suite

Judy Andrew you say that is not enough,

Andrew be careful about the name.

Judy these things are still unstable, I am wondering about designwise to get the suite nav to make sense?

Carlos you use a table unless ruled out use for WAI links nav bar and then keep to align.

Judy we don't have an absolute ban but a lot of people look at this, and to make this work well and look nice, so I will talk to other people and I have seen a few nav setups that are beautiful.

Kathleen I wonder about Gretchen she teaches at the writers guild,

Judy I have some other resrouces to check out,

Helle, put a link on the mailing list a down the title what it would like with different solutions

Judy that often generates a huge amount of dialog, but I want to focus on a few colleagues before a more open ;discussion. We can share the burden of experimenting a few other documents, thanks for doing some more experimenting. Lets go on to the next questions. Next?

Sarah I had thought we talk aobut some kind of list of verification tools or another adding a new resource.

Judy there is a list go to…that is the list, it needs a lot of work,

Sarah something I can link to at this point? Under develop web site, also providing resources for the developers,

Judy that is for evaluation tools, not dev

Sarah I am thinking of prototype or mockup..

Judy point to evaluating the doc better document for this pupose.

Sarah is ;that something that make sense here

Helle talking aoubt the resource

Sarah I would swap that out and put in evaluating

Andrew that makes sense

Judy providing links to?

Sarah under develop web site I added a resource, change web verification tools to web accessibility. Question number two a bullet about decentralized software, confusing bullet, legacy thing under select software, used to have …mangled sentence. I removed that.

Judy I still see it there.

Sarah I thought I removed it.

Judy used to say decentralized organizations it is mangled.

Andrew if we take out do we really need it?

Judy if you are talking to somebody with a huge organization with procurement for software making sure that what you buy supports this. They think there is no way to provide guidance like software procurement, advise them to make the decision.

Andrew I think that is self evident.

Judy how do we help people understand this than the sentence here.

Sarah tell me aobut the advise.

Judy I will say oh there is way to resolve this, even though decentralized here is how I advise you to evaluate the software. Telling people the solution is advise on software procurement rather that prescriptions. I am outside the organization. Develop some software procurements and they can make their own procurement decisions.

Sarah applies to centralized, as well as decentralized.

Judy look at a government organization locked into one set of tools. They can't purchased anything else

Sarah what about who hasn't purchased software. They are new in that division. How do you talk to those people.

Judy with regard to that, it is often that it is not issue, that those who are new at accessibility, the transition to the content of this section, when we first drafted this section, we didn't have a draft appendix on selecting software, more space there to address these issues, does that changes what we need to say and what we can skip? Sarah the first resource is selecting software. I would update the resource to come, wipe that out, in the other two are contextualized better, we need a faq pointer.

Sarah I think you are right. I would think this is not necessary.

Judy true. Let's look at the other bullets, given we have this other resource is this the highlights of what we want to say.

Carlos I sent an email yesterday about that yesterday. At a minimum …

Judy Carlos' mail on Thursday he is saying, second comment, third comment,

Carlos something about selecting software,

Judy in the section accessibility build templates, first draft I would add a section vendor quesries. Sounds like a different topic? Another mail Carlos?

Carlos I am wondering if a comment like that could be added here?

Judy any reactions on that?

Sarah I think that is an excellent question.

Judy other reactions? I get nervous when explicitly going into "at least" mode. That is reality isn't it though.

Helle any of the new versions of authoring do that?

Judy I don't know that. I will working closer with the authoring tools guidelines group to get out more explicit views, Kathleen I am sorry for this tangent, someone at Microsoft sent you feedback on your Front Page review.

Kathleen not sent to me.

Judy lets follow up on that after the call. Within the select software implementation plan, is that how we want to start, then next we would drop out the decentralized routine, then put in a question along the line of what Carlos said, if you can not find an app fully conformant then something the author… we keep the question …shortened key resource routine. Like that? Good. So that section is revised. It seems to revisit to develop and accessible web site. Jump to that now.

Helle I have one question for one of the first items. In the status of the docment. I have to read through to find. Under conduct initial assessment check requirements particularly for government or commercial sites? Why?

Judy certain kinds of external requirements which apply to government sites first, and in some countries to commercial sites, and in some countries to education sites.

Helle I thought it would be a more general thing to do?

Judy leave or take out? No coments? lets go back to Sarahs sections.

Sarah leave or take out?

Judy I understand leave.

Helle I can live with it.

Judy develop accessible web site. This section wasn't there initially. We put in because we were missing the main show. Sarah put because hard to figure out what to put in. Look at this, looks pretty clean

Helle looks good

William an old geezer joins.

Judy find any problems with this section look at the key resources section there, one of the things happening with the document pointing at the same resources.

Andrew ok

William mandatory.

Judy among other resources listed here, then Sarah your first resource might be evaluating web tools for accessibility. Rather than..

Sarah we decided to do …

Judy I am thinking of looking at as we are getting more into redundancies with the resource link, visually the key resources I think they jump out to the left, don't help the flow. It is nice to have to the resource names standing out. One of the advantages of the current formatting, these will stay visible, that is not necessarily essential, using in line links, either with name explict, not explicit. Lets take a minute of how we are listing resources, this looks like a real advance.

William I would suggest developing an icon for key resources.

Judy Lets hear different reactions. On the resource positioning thing.

Helle would you then hide all the resources.

William when you read a book there is warning, ought to be spattered with such things.

Judy reactions. Like them where they are? Highlighted with an icon.

Andrew I like having them grouped.

Carlos I like an icon

Andrew draws your attention to them , not just skimming

Sarah not have having the in line links.

Judy somewhat confusing.

Sarah I fiddled just a bit with it. It seems to me to do what it needs to do. There are other ways, but overall grouping is a very good thing. I would put the resources after the in line. I don't think it needs an icon.

Judy let me do some context where spent a while where did another document that gives it a slight background color. If people want to go to that, on this document. With accessibility training. Go to modules, I want to rasie this to have common strategy, in this document one resource for every module. Kind of at the end of the sentence. I am thinking that we have a few options one would be to a little more consistent drop out the word key, and just use resources. Just use key. Keep positioning the same, add an icon like a key, repeat elsewhere in the site. Clutter things up.

William walk me through the link.

Judy go to the training section. Go up to the modules link to that.

William that is an equivalent to an icon.

Andrew invisible to a screen reader. As long as you had a word key and resources following it.

Judy I want a consistent document, but that is a different discussion. One possibility to work up a key logo. I would appreciate some reactions. Is that something we could re-use consistently?

Sarah I am a bit concerned about that. In the training document to incorporate the inline logo, resizing fonts would be a problem. Particularly considering the topic.

Helle sometimes when I take away all the colors from the browser, they disappear in the training docuemtn doesn't fill out the same way.

Judy in the resrouce docment got choppy. We had tried on the other two.

Helle I remember something about that.

Judy I don't know maybe an icon maybe an sbp to expand and contract when needed. People who need for the presenters convenience but people who need to change complain aobut the rigidity.

Helle I am not keen on colors, make outstanding by font, I don't like the colors. They take away the different colors

William isn't the concept of cascading style sheets is about this, to furnish a hundred different skins.

Judy it is important to get feedback, based upon the conversations it would be worth to experiment with a key logo, and throwing …to keep an action item to get a key logo to play with. I have hearing to keep the key resources as a group thing, Sarah taking out the in line elements.

Helle I would think to make the key role resources are closer to above take away it looks a bit difficult, resources just written.

Judy sometimes even with the colors there it floats down rather than up.

Sarah I am making a note to associate with the previous text.

Judy when you collapse the list you lose the individual resources.

Sarah you want them to show?

Henk yes key resource take out the blank. Keep them in the collapsed version.

William to address Helle to look at each one as a slide.

Judy break up page?

William yes break up into a slide.

Judy looking at a detailed expanded version. Select first link to implement accessibility get a collapsed version people want the flow on one page. That is the format to see how the key resources look.

William how do I get there?

Judy working group home page.

William get there from the page I am on.

Judy looking at a draft to see us remain on topic. Looks like the develop web site section with a lot concerns, one is the title of the section. How do people like that and the reference link from the nav bar work? First title work?

Doyle Yes

Carlos works for me.

Sarah another section uses develop also. That is confusing.

Helle if we use a title attributes on these links…

Judy that would help people use screen readers.

Andrew yes.

Judy in IE but not in opera.

William opera doesn't do that.

Judy that is a solution but a little obscure. A single word or two short words.

William collapse all will go.

Judy yes collapse all will go.

Sarah when we were looking at the other page. Where we looked at the EO home page. I like having the expand all.

Judy I think we could set it off with square brackets. Sarah throw in brackets?

Sarah single column and double column the arrow icon, associate that with the nav bar.

Judy how about do both expand with arrow? Get back to the word thing.

Andrew intro widely understood?

Judy is intro an Americanism? Lets do introduction.

Andrew when I read again it struck me as not right.

Judy in using a link there, maybe leave as is? Not hearing other comments, lets see

William there are no resources under promote organization awareness.

Judy comes up on the radar.

William we have a document promoting organizational awareness.

Judy I am looking at Sarah's comments. Make a note to come back to that. Sarah's questions?

Sarah on number four, remove training resources…

Judy that sounds logical, other comments.

William the first bullet is inherent in the second.

Judy anyone object to it going? Any other comments about the latest revision.

Helle I still have a few problems with champion person. Call it spokesperson.

Judy that would be pretty good.

Carlos champion is much easier.

Judy use both of them.

William slash between the two terms.

Sarah advocate?

Judy advocate doesn't carry the right meaning. Evangelist carries for many businesses, but sounds like a Microsoft term, or religious missionary. Carries objectionable meanings for some. Anything else to close out this document.

William we are referring to two different levels. ACAG and WCAG a little too infrastructurist to be here. I think …

Judy…in some cases we may not have a good intermediate resource yet, but I agree to have that earlier. Any other closing concerns with this document. What I am tempted to do here is say to spend to move on to the Japanese the quick tip for kids.

William I would like to second Chuck's email this is the beginning a really outstanding piece, because how do we do that?

Judy I can't find the link to the Japanese Quick Tips for kids. Let's take a few other comments about selecting software. On Wednesday we agreed to flip it upside down. In the meantime. After the meeting on Wednesday, Andrew would do a vender question list. Audrey has also a vendor question list. People have some ideas of what ought to be on the vendor question list. Or Andrew what you were thinking about.

Andrew I think we were thinking of the ATAG guidelines as the source, and turn into questions.

Judy Software. What else in a vendor question list. What you would like to see. These would be moved up top. Used by an organization, selecting … any other categories of questions?

Williams I like that last sub bullets, last one that is the avenue works when screaming at the feds.

Judy any other categories that need to be said. Andrew and his colleagues will add something about the preciseness of the guidelines. Are there other more general questions?

Sarah I've asked a few other vendors, what changes have you made to your product to conform to the Federal guidelines?

Judy lets try to make a little less U.S. specific to reflect the growing awareness of the base for …

William the W3C has to ask those questions. To understand what keeps the web growing even faster. What have you done to do this?

Judy We are near the end of our time.

Sarah I have one comment, I think the documents are very practical, I would be concerned with this document, give them something useable and practical in their daily work and

Judy getting better progress in the authoring tool working group. I would like to work with them. On Wednesday I looked very briefly. I think getting to practical stuff involved the authoring tool group.

William bridge chop us off at the appointed hour?

Judy no. Meeting on the first Friday of January we are getting pretty good attendance. Much bigger group on last Wednesday when we meet January fourth.

Andrew Judy could we change off the third Wednesday.

Judy we tried that but have more interest in that. We may be able to pull off two Wednesday a month. I am going to try to get out more formal information about the Nice meeting. Have a great holiday break. Thanks everybody for the good work. A lot more dialogue on the list. I am really happy with the work.

Last revised 3 January 2002 by Judy Brewer

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