Meeting minutes
jcraig: attempts to explain Scribing to aardrian
New Issue Triage
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: Neil will be the new co-editor MathML-AAM
jcraig: Volunteer to make the editorial change?
jamesn: Valerie has agreed that it's ok.
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: Deprecation of aria-invalid as global property
scotto: This and possibly following one or two issues are related
scotto: aria-invalid for form fields, so something needs to take its place for non-form fields.
scotto: Maybe for later agenda (agenda+)
jamesn: Wait for the agenda+ and decide how to tackle it then.
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: CSS highlights not clearly documented in AAM
jcraig: Already assigned, so can move on.
scotto: Can discuss in next meeting
jamesn: Not sure it should live in AAM?
scotto: Said to post here absent a better place.
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: Clarification on live region announcement
jcraig: This is a deeper issue. Agenda+?
jcraig: Sees agreement.
<jcraig> w3c/
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: Combining the two issues related to alert role announcement for this discussion.
jcraig: Need to somehow link these together as part of same discussion
jamesn: Manually do so when the agenda is made.
New PR Triage
<jcraig> w3c/
jcraig: I reviewed the one PR. Does it need more?
jamesn: That's up to Scott to decide when to merge into AAM.
scotto: I think I have to make WPTs / bugs against browsers?
jcraig: Runs through some steps to copy a WPT test and go from there.
jcraig: Can merge on immediately; make it a tentative file to avoid some hassle.
scotto: Weird given HTML says it should be a list but it's not.
jcraig: Merge and make change to HTML spec, or the inverse.
jcraig: Crediting Valerie's rigidity on process.
WPT Open PRs
jcraig: This WPT item is actually an issue from Interop. [ hunting ensues ]
jcraig: Save for Interop session since it's in that repo.
jcraig: There are tests merged prior to whitespace trimming clarification.
jcraig: Which brought up AccName issue 95. But not for discussion now.
jcraig: Does space before/after string get trimmed?
bryan: Yes, white space gets trimmed.
jcraig: I want to milestone this.
jcraig: Either fix spec or update tests to test the correct thing.
jamesn: Put it H1 2024 and I'll add a new milestone.
jamesn: AccName does not say that returned node should be trimmed of white space.
jamesn: Should be a simple fix. Is what we expect.
bryan: Yes.
jamesn: Only says to return value of aria-label, not trimmed value.
Matt_King: Somewhere it addresses white space separators.
jamesn: But it doesn't say anything about trimming.
jcraig: [ quietly scrolls ]
jcraig: Yup, I think it's a spec problem.
jamesn: I agree.
jamesn: You should have a new Milestone to add this to, but we should maybe clean that up.
jcraig: Noted in issue that we plan to update spec to clarify and update test as well.
jamesn: Does anyone disagree?
aardrian: Asked about inline versus block to follow up on a jcraig comment.
Adam_Page: Encountered a scenario where one browser did not concatenate aria-labelledby.
jcraig: Some bugs and ambiguity.
jamesn: Is there a similar issue/test for alt text?
jcraig: Good question. [adds Q to comment thread in issue ]
jcraig: Any update on accName issue?
Adam_Page: No update
jcraig: Name from heading, no action there from me.
jcraig: runs through ongoing issues.
Deep Dive planning
jamesn: off next week, not sure if we can do the following week.
jcraig: Any suggestion for deep dives?
aardrian: accNames for form fields in tables from col/row headers.
StefanS: SEconds that.
jcraig: Can you file an issue in AccName?
Matt_King: We have an issue in ARIA.
Matt_King: Action item was to maybe ask WCAG to provide a Technique.
jamesn: Useful convo to have, question if anything be done in ARIA.
jamesn: Worthwhile convo, but nothing to do in ARIA.
Matt_King: Discussion about what programmatically determined means, but if that should come from accName.
jcraig: Found issue in ARIA.
Matt_King: Change the title, which was changed when I moved it.
jcraig: [typing ensues]
StefanS: If you do auto labeling, must also have position identification for tables without headers.
<jcraig> w3c/
Matt_King: Add to comment so it makes it into deep dive.
aardrian: Will need to address multiple fields in the same cell.
StefanS: How to identify inputs in lists.
jcraig: Separate issue.
StefanS: Will file an issue.
jcraig: I have tagged you aardrian for the deep dive.
Reminder, no meeting April 11th
Confirm direction: marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" agendabot]
jcraig: Should we table this or does someone want to discuss?
Matt_King: Didn't we already discuss this?
jamesn: More discussion has happened in the issue.
jamesn: If we agree with the direction from last comment, then we need a PR.
jcraig: Any takers?
Matt_King: Nowhere in ARIA where we define a term analogous to SR focus or point of regard.
Matt_King: Which is what this means.
jcraig: Not necessarily. That may be the primary scenario.
jcraig: Another one may be notify browser about stuff happening elsewhere, regardless of focus position.
Matt_King: Not sure I understand. Sounds like requested ability to turn something on.
jcraig: VO has that ability. You can set a live region anywhere ("watch region"?)
Matt_King: I don't understand the use case. What is the specific author expectation.
jcraig: Don't understand question. We don't need a SR point of focus; could be "when AT determines is relevant"
jcraig: Could still be in spec, could test if notification comes through, test if ignored when not focused.
Adam_Page: Suggests "quantum" because it is being observed.
aardrian: Yeah, I minuted that.
jcraig: No assignee. Up for grabs.
jamesn: Not a good first issue.
Consider switching to ROLE_SYSTEM_LISTITEM on MSAA + IAccessible2
jcraig: Who wants to take the Windows API?
jamesn: We left on the agenda because we don't know what to do, where to go.
jamesn: Not as simple as switching role_system_listitem, right?
jcraig: Can we retitle this to reflect the switch?
jamesn: We need to sort this for DT/DD, right?
scotto: We need to look at DFN as well as DD/DT for appropriate role.
scotto: DFN only matters within specs as far as I can tell.
jcraig: No volunteer. Remove agenda?
Matt_King: I think we need to state no consensus on this being a good idea.
Matt_King: I would voice an objection based on what scotto just said.
scotto: Confirmed DFN maps to "term".
scotto: ARIA 1.2 simplified it to that because DT never happened.
Matt_King: Because of that mapping, does not seem like LISTITEM is right IA1 mapping.
Matt_King: Need alternative proposal.
scotto: Put Deep Dive on this for future me oh no what have I done.
Matt_King: IRL impact on users seems nominal.
Matt_King: Don't think AT is doing anything with "term" role; de facto "generic".
jcraig: No consensus on this issue, looking for volunteer.
Status update: Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state
jcraig: Giacomo has taken assignment.
giacomo-petri: Lots of questions in comments, so need to decide how to move forward before making PR.
jamesn: Specific questions?
giacomo-petri: My comments were two paths: new attribute for switch or enhance aria-textvalue.
jcraig: One more path... utilizing pattern of CSS content from attribute
scotto: Ignore the content from CSS and use HTML to say what the strings need to be, but have the CSS ignore it.
(I encourage scotto to remedy my characterization of what he said)
jcraig: Can use data- attributes, localize in the CMS.
scotto: People today are hiding the CSS pseudo-content, so they are both exposed to SR users.
scotto: So both are being conveyed, but only one should be exposed at a time.
scotto: Then visual styles are moot.
scotto: more discussion on techniques to avoid that.
scotto: Notes it was only for switch.
<jcraig> s/\^jcraig /\^jcraig: /g
<jcraig> s/ jamesn: / jamesn /g