16:58:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-irc
16:58:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:25 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:28 <jamesn> Agendabot, find agenda
16:58:28 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:28 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240404T130000/
16:58:28 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/2h7e6jcu
16:58:29 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/2nffeuvn
16:58:31 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
16:58:35 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:37 <agendabot> agenda+ Reminder, no meeting April 11th
16:58:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Confirm direction: marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144
16:58:43 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider switching to ROLE_SYSTEM_LISTITEM on MSAA + IAccessible2 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223
16:58:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Status update: Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085
16:58:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Question: time can have a name from author? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2075
17:00:19 <jcraig> agenda?
17:00:47 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:01:18 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:02:20 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:02:24 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:02:26 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:02:34 <aardrian> Present+
17:02:37 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:03:07 <jcraig> Chair: jcraig
17:03:11 <jcraig> present+
17:03:14 <aardrian> scribe aardrian
17:03:31 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:03:33 <aardrian> scribe: aardrian
17:03:39 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:03:53 <jcraig> s/scribe aardrian/scribe: aardrian/
17:04:11 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:05:42 <aardrian> jcraig attempts to explain Scribing to aardrian
17:05:45 <jocelyntran> jocelyntran has joined #aria
17:06:15 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:06:15 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/2h7e6jcu -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:06:17 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:06:23 <katez> present+
17:06:49 <jocelyntran> present+
17:07:03 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/mathml-aam/issues/33
17:07:38 <aardrian> jcraig Neil will be the new co-editor MathML
17:08:00 <aardrian> jcraig Another co-editor needed, volunteers?
17:08:21 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:08:57 <aardrian> jamesn Valerie has agreed that it's ok.
17:09:07 <Adam_Page> present+
17:09:21 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2155
17:09:42 <aardrian> jcraig Deprecation of aria-invalid as global property
17:10:00 <aardrian> scotto This and possibly following one or two issues are related
17:10:34 <aardrian> scotto aria-invalid for form fields, so something needs to take its place for non-form fields.
17:10:46 <aardrian> scotto Maybe for later agenda (agenda+)
17:11:13 <aardrian> jamesn Wait for the agenda+ and decide how to tackle it then.
17:11:23 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/226
17:11:37 <aardrian> jcraig CSS highlights not clearly documented in AAM
17:11:50 <aardrian> jcraig Already assigned, so can move on.
17:11:58 <aardrian> scotto Can discuss in next meeting
17:12:12 <aardrian> jamesn Not sure it should live in AAM?
17:12:22 <aardrian> scotto Said to post here absent a better place.
17:12:39 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2154
17:12:52 <aardrian> jcraig Clarification on live region announcement
17:13:16 <aardrian> jcraig Is there an intermediate point? This is a deeper issue. Agenda+?
17:13:27 <aardrian> jcraig Sees agreement.
17:13:39 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/225
17:13:46 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2153
17:14:06 <aardrian> jcraig Combining the two issues related to alert role announcement for this discussion.
17:14:28 <aardrian> jcraig Need to somehow link these together as part of same discussion
17:14:38 <aardrian> jamesn Manually do so when the agenda is made.
17:15:07 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:15:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/2nffeuvn -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:48 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/539
17:16:21 <aardrian> jcraig: I reviewed the one PR. Does it need more?
17:16:34 <aardrian> jamesn: That's up to Scott to decide when to merge into AAM.
17:16:44 <aardrian> jcraig: Nah.
17:17:03 <aardrian> scotto: I think I have to make WPTs / bugs against browsers?
17:17:55 <aardrian> jcraig: Runs through some steps to copy a WPT test and go from there.
17:18:30 <aardrian> jcraig: Can merge on immediately; make it a tentative file to avoid some hassle.
17:18:48 <aardrian> scotto: Weird given HTML says it should be a list but it's not.
17:19:18 <aardrian> jcraig: Merge and make change to HTML spec, or the inverse.
17:19:31 <aardrian> jcraig: Crediting Valerie's rigidity on process.
17:19:36 <aardrian> zakim, next time
17:19:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next time', aardrian
17:19:41 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:19:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:26 <aardrian> jcraig: This WPT item is actually an issue from Interop. [ hunting ensues ]
17:20:49 <aardrian> jcraig: Save for Interop session since it's in that repo.
17:20:50 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:21:02 <Matt_King> present+
17:21:03 <aardrian> jcraig: There are tests merged prior to whitespace trimming clarification.
17:21:40 <aardrian> jcraig: Which brought up AccName issue 95. But not for discussion now.
17:21:55 <aardrian> jcraig: Does space before/after string get trimmed?
17:22:40 <aardrian> bryan: Yes, white space gets trimmed.
17:22:49 <aardrian> jcraig: I want to milestone this.
17:23:04 <aardrian> jcraig: Either fix spec or update tests to test the correct thing.
17:23:26 <aardrian> jamesn: Put it H1 2024 and I'll add a new milestone.
17:23:57 <aardrian> jamesn: AccName does not say that returned node should be trimmed of white space.
17:24:11 <aardrian> jamesn: Should be a simple fix. Is what we expect.
17:24:15 <aardrian> bryan: Yes.
17:24:35 <aardrian> jamesn: Only says to return value of aria-label, not trimmed value.
17:25:01 <aardrian> Matt_King: Somewhere it addresses white space separators.
17:25:14 <aardrian> jamesn: But it doesn't say anything about trimming.
17:25:39 <aardrian> jcraig: [ quietly scrolls ]
17:25:52 <aardrian> jcraig: Yup, I think it's a spec problem.
17:25:56 <aardrian> jamesn: I agree.
17:26:24 <aardrian> jamesn: You should have a new Milestone to add this to, but we should maybe clean that up.
17:26:39 <aardrian> jcraig: Noted in issue that we plan to update spec to clarify and update test as well.
17:26:47 <aardrian> jamesn: Does anyone disagree?
17:27:26 <jamesn> q+
17:28:18 <aardrian> aardrian: Asked about inline versus block to follow up on a jcraig comment.
17:28:36 <siri> present+
17:28:44 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Encountered a scenario where one browser did not concatenate aria-labelledby.
17:29:14 <aardrian> jcraig: Some bugs and ambiguity.
17:29:31 <aardrian> jamesn: Is there a similar issue/test for alt text?
17:29:36 <jamesn> ack me
17:30:09 <aardrian> jcraig: Good question. [adds Q to comment thread in issue ]
17:31:03 <aardrian> jcraig: Any update on accName issue?
17:31:12 <aardrian> Adam_Page: No update
17:31:31 <aardrian> jcraig: Name from heading, no action there from me.
17:32:01 <aardrian> jcraig: runs through ongoing issues.
17:32:05 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:32:05 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:32:29 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:32:57 <aardrian> jamesn: off next week, not sure if we can do the following week.
17:33:22 <aardrian> jcraig: Any suggestion for deep dives?
17:33:34 <aardrian> aardrian: accNames for form fields in tables from col/row headers.
17:33:41 <jamesn> q+
17:33:44 <aardrian> StefanS: SEconds that.
17:33:54 <aardrian> jcraig: Can you file an issue in AccName?
17:34:11 <aardrian> Matt_King: We have an issue in ARIA.
17:34:29 <aardrian> Matt_King: Action item was to maybe ask WCAG to provide a Technique.
17:34:55 <aardrian> jamesn: Useful convo to have, question if anything be done in ARIA.
17:35:12 <jamesn> ack mne
17:35:15 <aardrian> jamesn: Worthwhile convo, but nothing to do in ARIA.
17:35:16 <jamesn> ack me
17:35:35 <aardrian> Matt_King: Discussion about what programmatically determined means, but if that should come from accName.
17:35:55 <jamesn> agenda?
17:36:12 <aardrian> jcraig: Found issue in ARIA.
17:36:37 <aardrian> Matt_King: Change the title, which was changed when I moved it.
17:36:59 <StefanS> q+
17:37:00 <aardrian> jcraig: [typing ensues]
17:37:38 <aardrian> StefanS: If you do auto labeling, must also have position identification for tables without headers.
17:37:40 <aardrian> Q+
17:38:00 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2148
17:38:05 <aardrian> Matt_King: Add to comment so it makes it into deep dive.
17:38:07 <jcraig> ack StefanS
17:38:12 <StefanS> q-
17:38:16 <jcraig> ack aardrian
17:38:26 <aardrian> aardrian: Will need to address multiple fields in the same cell.
17:39:37 <aardrian> StefanS: How to identify inputs in lists.
17:39:41 <aardrian> jcraig: Separate issue.
17:39:53 <aardrian> StefanS: Will file an issue.
17:40:46 <aardrian> jcraig: I have tagged you aardrian for the deep dive.
17:40:52 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:40:52 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Reminder, no meeting April 11th -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:20 <aardrian> zakim, close item
17:41:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', aardrian
17:41:23 <aardrian> zakim, close this item
17:41:23 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:41:24 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:24 <Zakim> 6. -> Confirm direction: marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144 [from agendabot]
17:41:30 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:41:30 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Confirm direction: marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144 -- taken up [from
17:41:33 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
17:42:35 <aardrian> jcraig: Should we table this or does someone want to discuss?
17:42:45 <aardrian> Matt_King: Didn't we already discuss this?
17:43:02 <aardrian> jamesn: More discussion has happened in the issue.
17:43:28 <aardrian> jamesn: If we agree with the direction from last comment, then we need a PR.
17:43:59 <aardrian> jcraig: Any takers?
17:44:26 <aardrian> Matt_King: Nowhere in ARIA where we define a term analogous to SR focus or point of regard.
17:44:35 <aardrian> Matt_King: Which is what this means.
17:44:49 <aardrian> jcraig: Not necessarily. That may be the primary scenario.
17:45:18 <aardrian> jcraig: Another one may be notify browser about stuff happening elsewhere, regardless of focus position.
17:45:37 <aardrian> Matt_King: Not sure I understand. Sounds like requested ability to turn something on.
17:45:56 <aardrian> jcraig: VO has that ability. You can set a live region anywhere ("watch region"?)
17:46:14 <aardrian> Matt_King: I don't understand the use case. What is the specific author expectation.
17:46:38 <aardrian> jcraig: Don't understand question. We don't need a SR point of focus; could be "when AT determines is relevant"
17:47:10 <aardrian> jcraig: Could still be in spec, could test if notification comes through, test if ignored when not focused.
17:47:50 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Suggests "quantum" because it is being observed.
17:48:07 <aardrian> aardrian: Yeah, I minuted that.
17:48:32 <aardrian> jcraig: No assignee. Up for grabs.
17:48:39 <aardrian> jamesn: Not a good first issue.
17:49:53 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:49:53 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Consider switching to ROLE_SYSTEM_LISTITEM on MSAA + IAccessible2 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:50:19 <aardrian> jcraig: Who wants to take the Windows API?
17:50:33 <aardrian> jamesn: We left on the agenda because we don't know what to do, where to go.
17:50:58 <aardrian> jamesn: Not as simple as switching role_system_listitem, right?
17:51:21 <aardrian> jcraig: Can we retitle this to reflect the switch?
17:51:32 <aardrian> jamesn: We need to sort this for DT/DD, right?
17:51:56 <aardrian> scotto: We need to look at DFN as well as DD/DT for appropriate role.
17:52:09 <aardrian> scotto: DFN only matters within specs as far as I can tell.
17:52:23 <aardrian> jcraig: No volunteer. Remove agenda?
17:52:38 <aardrian> Matt_King: I think we need to state no consensus on this being a good idea.
17:52:58 <aardrian> Matt_King: I would voice an objection based on what scotto just said.
17:53:11 <aardrian> scotto: Confirmed DFN maps to "term".
17:53:33 <aardrian> scotto: ARIA 1.2 simplified it to that because DT never happened.
17:53:55 <aardrian> Matt_King: Because of that mapping, does not seem like LISTITEM is right IA1 mapping.
17:53:57 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:53:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:54:04 <aardrian> Matt_King: Need alternative proposal.
17:54:18 <aardrian> scotto: Put Deep Dive on this for future me oh no what have I done.
17:54:49 <aardrian> Matt_King: IRL impact on users seems nominal.
17:55:05 <aardrian> Matt_King: Don't think AT is doing anything with "term" role; de facto "generic".
17:55:23 <aardrian> jcraig: No consensus on this issue, looking for volunteer.
17:55:31 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:55:31 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Status update: Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:55:59 <aardrian> jcraig: Giacomo has taken assignment.
17:56:25 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: Lots of questions in comments, so need to decide how to move forward before making PR.
17:56:31 <aardrian> jamesn: Specific questions?
17:57:08 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: My comments were two paths: new attribute for switch or enhance aria-textvalue.
17:57:49 <aardrian> jcraig: One more path... utilizing pattern of CSS content from attribute
17:58:23 <aardrian> scotto: Ignore the content from CSS and use HTML to say what the strings need to be, but have the CSS ignore it.
17:58:44 <aardrian> (I encourage scotto to remedy my characterization of what he said)
17:59:12 <aardrian> jcraig: Can use data- attributes, localize in the CMS.
17:59:45 <aardrian> scotto: People today are hiding the CSS pseudo-content, so they are both exposed to SR users.
18:00:02 <aardrian> scotto: So both are being conveyed, but only one should be exposed at a time.
18:00:09 <aardrian> scotto: Then visual styles are moot.
18:00:55 <aardrian> scotto: more discussion on techniques to avoid that.
18:01:21 <aardrian> scotto: Notes it was only for switch.
18:01:37 <aardrian> zakim, close this item
18:01:37 <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
18:01:38 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:01:38 <Zakim> 9. -> Question: time can have a name from author? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2075 [from agendabot]
18:01:45 <aardrian> zakim, end meeting
18:01:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Francis_Storr, aardrian, giacomo-petri, jcraig, katez, jocelyntran, Daniel, Adam_Page, Matt_King, siri
18:01:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, aardrian; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:01:55 <sarah> present+
18:02:00 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:03:07 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
18:03:20 <jcraig> regrets+ Rahim
18:03:22 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:03:52 <jcraig> regrets+ pkra
18:03:54 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:06:38 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:06:58 <jcraig> s/\^jcraig /\^jcraig: /g
18:07:23 <jcraig> s/jcraig /jcraig: /g
18:07:27 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:09:08 <jcraig> s/jamesn /jamesn: /g
18:09:23 <jcraig> s/scotto /scotto: /g
18:09:26 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:10:06 <jcraig> s/ jamesn: / jamesn /g
18:10:20 <jcraig> s/ jcraig: / jcraig /g
18:10:28 <jcraig> s/ scotto: / scotto /g
18:10:57 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:10:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:12:20 <jcraig> s/MathML/MathML-AAM/
18:13:10 <jcraig> s/Another co-editor needed, volunteers?/Volunteer to make the editorial change?/
18:14:05 <jcraig> s/Is there an intermediate point? / /
18:14:35 <jcraig> s/jcraig: Nah.//
18:14:38 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:14:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:15:25 <jcraig> s/Can merge on immediately; make it a tentative file to avoid some hassle./Can merge that one immediately; make it a tentative file to avoid affecting Interop 2024 tests./