Meeting minutes
<ChrisLoiselle> unable to scribe as may need to step away, sorry!
Announcements
Maryjom: June 16th comments due on 2.2
A few were marked at risk: 1.4.11 focus appearance, 2.5.8 target size
If not resolved, may revert or be removed.
Project standup and planning
Maryjom: In progress - no progress on scripting to fix content of the document including understanding intent and fixing HTML headings. Is there an update from Michael?
Dmontalvo: no official updates. Michael is working on a dedicated branch.
Update for problematic functionality subgroup met yesterday and will be meeting on the analysis spreadsheet. In google sheets (found in work for the week).
We are working on reflow and text command line applications and interfaces. (Maryjom and two others who are traveling this week)
Philday: 2.2 issues should someone pick those up or wait until the release is approved.
Maryjom: need to complete 2.1 before we work on 2.2
Discussion on definition of Device-independent pixels
There are big definitions parallel to WCAG2ICT
And will cause a maintenance challenge.
chuck: there are so many examples and scenarios that could be identified that we will never satisfy all of them
This is our opportunity to say that we can not resolve and it is not resolvable for WCAG2ICT
There were some that we wrapped as best practice and that is a potential option here
Mitch: it is beyond our scope to write understanding documents. We need to kick the tires of whatever we do write to see if it works with today's examples. We don't need to identify all examples
mitch11: Was in favor of examples, but could leave them out and just use a couple of notes in the end of the process
… if we take real world examples for working in this group then discuss
<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say I'm not strongly against examples, just see it as a potential rabbit hole.
Chuck: not really strongly against examples - just have concern that we get the objection to always add N+1 examples
Chuck is not against real world examples but they do not need to be comprehensive (every possible example)
<Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to ask for another scribe
<maryjom> Issue for definition of CSS pixel w3c/
<dmontalvo> MJ: Problem with CSS definition is that it is not used outside the web
<dmontalvo> ... It's used in the EN for the size of a character
<dmontalvo> ... Even if we come up with examples we still need to translate to whatever platform they are applied
Apologies all - I have to drop for another call.
<dmontalvo> Mitch: Every platform has a different name for it, but the concept is the same, it is a terminology challenge
<dmontalvo> MJ: I can't remember which one was, but if you calculate sizes there are massive differences
<dmontalvo> Mitch: That reflects different assumed viewing distances for the different platforms, to me that sounds correct
Sam: Listening to Chuck, like 3rd and 4th point about making this a best practice
<dmontalvo> Sam: I like the idea of making this a best practice
Look at the reference from the EN - there is a table with common distances
<dmontalvo> ... In the EN they provide the equation and the table
<dmontalvo> ... Maybe this is one of those SC where it is just best practices
<dmontalvo> ... There are other requirements related to sizing in other standards
<dmontalvo> ... There is such a diversity of screens and content consumption and context of use. For the web that's dealt with by the browsers.
<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say how we handle non irc engaged participants in other calls.
Mitch11: Resize and reflow criteria are difficult to achieve on some devices and platforms but to say that we can't apply is a mistake
to say we can't apply anywhere because there are someplaces that it doesn't apply would be a mistake.
Chuck: Taking chair hat, we have strong motivation and have not reached consensus and we seem light on normal participants.
Can we poll the group.
1. continue 2. best practice
Sam Ogami, would best practice negate that in any way.
LauraBMiller: can we do both
<Chuck> Laura: Can we do both? Describe where it's applicable and do best practice where not?
Chuck: not trying to dictate what this group does. Trying to throw out ideas and provide options for how to move forward
<ChrisLoiselle> +1 to adding what we have covered or perhaps write a paper or note on what we have reviewed in 2023 as current state of this particular criteria. We've done a lot of research and that should be showcased somewhere.
Sam's question was what's the difference between Best practice and Success Criteria?
<maryjom> poll: 1. Continue working on CSS pixel definition 2. Work toward making requirements using CSS Pixels a best practice 3. A combination of the two (do both).
MaryJoM: 508 decided to exclude particular requirements for anything outside of Web.
EN did that as well but more as a best practices
Mitch11: consistent identification couldn't be by definition applied to sets.
But would make sense to be consistent within an app.
<maryjom> https://
Mitch11: Clarification what is the poll about, is it about reflow or any criteria. Propose that we provide the notes for the first one. Make a separate proposal for the second
MaryJoM: added to IRC the note for best practice. (note 3)
<Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to give more info on "best practice" in WCAG2ICT v1
Loicmn: some people did not understand that pixel is a device independent measure.
Tend to keep pixel as is. Then add notes to explain when and how it applies
How we dealt with idea of best practices in EN, when it is rare, we kept it out of the EN standard.
is this a poll of just this example?
<Zakim> LauraBMiller, you wanted to ask did we answer Mitch11 question
is this just a poll of this particular item.
<Chuck> proposed Poll option 1) Continue working on this standard, 2) work to make best practice 3) combination of the 2, 4) move on to another standard which uses CSS pixel and try to craft that one.
Mitch11 do we use device independent pixel and attach to target size?
Chuck had proposed a poll. Option 4 was to leave this for now. Move to another one using pixels.
Solve for that one to get data.
Use the results to determine how to move forward on this one
Maryjom: that puts us into 2.2
<Chuck> repost of proposed Poll option 1) Continue working on this standard, 2) work to make best practice 3) combination of the 2, 4) move on to another standard which uses CSS pixel and try to craft that one.
Sam was going to ask about touch target size
<Zakim> dmontalvo, you wanted to say we should probably change "standard" to "sc"
<Chuck> proposed Poll option 1) Continue working on this sc, 2) work to make best practice 3) combination of option 1 and 2 both, 4) move on to another sc which uses CSS pixel and try to craft that one.
<Chuck> 3, then 4
<Sam> 3 then 4
4, then 3
<mitch11> 4; then 1 (focusing on platforms that define the pixel)
<loicmn> 4 ... and then see what happens :-)
Sam, for touch target size you can box that in by arms length etc.
For Reflow you can't do that.
Sam: you can't use larger distances than "arms length" for touch target
<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to propose target size for a hopeful quick win?
chuck: can we do target size for a quick win?
LauraBMiller: target size may not be simpler
chuck would be worth trying to see what the challenges are.
Loicmn: is it by accident that all CSS pixel criteria are at risk in 2.2?
Chuck: not presuming that there is a relationship between css pixels being at risk and the difficulty we are having.
<Sam> phil is
<loicmn> salir
<loicmn> exit