13:51:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:51:19 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-wcag2ict-irc
13:51:19 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:51:20 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:51:22 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
13:51:22 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:51:30 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:51:45 <maryjom> ejbdccuuklgujnntjbrtdfhfclbvdtkfecbtcbjuvtfj
13:52:08 <maryjom> s/ejbdccuuklgu//
13:52:43 <maryjom> s/jnntjbrtdfhfclbvdtkfecbtcbjuvtfj//
13:52:50 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
13:52:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
13:53:07 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:53:14 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:53:14 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
13:53:23 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
13:53:30 <maryjom> Agenda+ Project standup and planning
13:53:38 <maryjom> Agenda+ Discussion on definition of Device-independent pixels
13:53:49 <maryjom> regrets: Bruce Bailey, Mike Pluke, Olivia Hogan-Starke, Shawn Thompson
13:57:09 <loicmn> loicmn has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:41 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
13:59:49 <ChrisLoiselle> unable to scribe as may need to step away, sorry!
14:01:07 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
14:01:18 <PhilDay> PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:20 <PhilDay> present+
14:01:24 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:25 <LauraBMiller> LauraBMiller has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:01:26 <loicmn> present+
14:01:31 <LauraBMiller> present+
14:01:32 <mitch11> present+
14:01:45 <LauraBMiller> scribe+ LauraBMiller
14:02:08 <LauraBMiller> zakim, take up next
14:02:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:02:52 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:57 <Chuck> present+
14:03:21 <LauraBMiller> Maryjom: June 16th comments due on 2.2
14:03:40 <LauraBMiller> A few were marked at risk: 1.4.11 focus appearance, 2.5.8 target size
14:03:57 <dmontalvo> q?
14:04:30 <LauraBMiller>  If not resolved, may revert or be removed.
14:05:26 <LauraBMiller> zakim, take up next
14:05:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Project standup and planning -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:06:27 <LauraBMiller> Maryjom: In progress - no progress on scripting to fix content of the document including understanding intent and fixing HTML headings. Is there an update from Michael?
14:06:44 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:48 <LauraBMiller> Dmontalvo: no official updates. Michael is working on a dedicated branch.
14:07:52 <LauraBMiller> Update for problematic functionality subgroup met yesterday and will be meeting on the analysis spreadsheet. In google sheets (found in work for the week).
14:07:54 <Devanshu> present+
14:08:23 <PhilDay> q+
14:08:23 <LauraBMiller> We are working on reflow and text command line applications and interfaces. (Maryjom and two others who are traveling this week)
14:08:43 <dmontalvo> q?
14:08:46 <LauraBMiller> ack PhilDay
14:09:13 <Chuck> q+
14:09:16 <LauraBMiller> Philday: 2.2 issues should someone pick those up or wait until the release is approved.
14:09:39 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:10:26 <LauraBMiller_> LauraBMiller_ has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:10:47 <LauraBMiller_> Maryjom: need to complete 2.1 before we work on 2.2
14:10:50 <LauraBMiller_> ack Chuck
14:10:53 <dmontalvo> q?
14:11:04 <Chuck> q+
14:11:23 <LauraBMiller_> scribe: LauraBMiller_
14:11:55 <PhilDay> scribe+ LauraBMiller_
14:05:26 <LauraBMiller> Topic: Discussion on definition of Device-independent pixels
14:13:13 <LauraBMiller_> There are big definitions parallel to WCAG2ICT
14:13:36 <LauraBMiller_> And will cause a maintenance challenge.
14:14:31 <mitch11> q
14:14:33 <mitch11> q+
14:14:59 <LauraBMiller_> chuck: there are so many examples and scenarios that could be identified that we will never satisfy all of them
14:15:11 <dmontalvo> ack chuck
14:15:34 <LauraBMiller_> This is our opportunity to say that we can not resolve and it is not resolvable for WCAG2ICT
14:16:07 <LauraBMiller_> There were some that we wrapped as best practice and that is a potential option here
14:16:13 <LauraBMiller_> ack mitch11
14:17:06 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
14:17:06 <Chuck> q+ to say I'm not strongly against examples, just see it as a potential rabbit hole.
14:17:06 <LauraBMiller_> Mitch: it is beyond our scope to write understanding documents. We need to kick the tires of whatever we do write to see if it works with today's examples. We don't need to identify all examples
14:17:11 <dmontalvo> q?
14:17:22 <PhilDay> mitch11: Was in favor of examples, but could leave them out and just use a couple of notes in the end of the process
14:17:35 <dmontalvo> ack mitch
14:17:47 <PhilDay> ... if we take real world examples for working in this group then discuss
14:17:49 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:17:49 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say I'm not strongly against examples, just see it as a potential rabbit hole.
14:17:51 <LauraBMiller_> ack Chuck
14:18:14 <PhilDay> Chuck: not really strongly against examples - just have concern that we get the objection to always add N+1 examples
14:18:22 <LauraBMiller_> Chuck is not against real world examples but they do not need to be comprehensive (every possible example)
14:18:33 <PhilDay> q+ to ask for another scribe
14:19:41 <dmontalvo> ack phil
14:19:41 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to ask for another scribe
14:20:16 <maryjom> Issue for definition of CSS pixel https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/162
14:22:07 <dmontalvo> MJ: Problem with CSS definition is that it is not used outside the web
14:22:23 <dmontalvo> ... It's used in the EN for the size of a character
14:22:56 <mitch11> q+
14:23:02 <dmontalvo> ... Even if we come up with examples we still need to translate to whatever platform they are applied
14:23:05 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:23:23 <PhilDay> Apologies all - I have to drop for another call.
14:23:51 <dmontalvo> Mitch: Every platform has a different name for it, but the concept is the same, it is a terminology challenge
14:24:06 <LauraBMiller> LauraBMiller has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:24:18 <LauraBMiller> scribe+ LauraBMiller
14:24:34 <LauraBMiller> ack Mitch11
14:24:35 <dmontalvo> MJ: I can't remember which one was, but if you calculate sizes there are massive differences
14:24:53 <dmontalvo> Mitch: That reflects different assumed viewing distances for the different platforms, to me that sounds correct
14:25:07 <LauraBMiller> ack Sam
14:25:38 <LauraBMiller> Sam: Listening to Chuck, like 3rd and 4th point about making this a best practice
14:25:40 <dmontalvo> Sam: I like the idea of making this a best practice
14:25:48 <Chuck> q+ to say how we handle non irc engaged participants in other calls.
14:25:52 <LauraBMiller> Look at the reference from the EN - there is a table with common distances
14:26:04 <dmontalvo> ... In the EN they provide the equation and the table
14:26:18 <dmontalvo> ... Maybe this is one of those SC where it is just best practices
14:26:41 <dmontalvo> ... There are other requirements related to sizing in other standards
14:27:21 <dmontalvo> ... There is such a diversity of screens and content consumption and context of use. For the web that's dealt with by the browsers.
14:27:37 <mitch11> q+
14:27:47 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:27:47 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say how we handle non irc engaged participants in other calls.
14:28:25 <Chuck> present+ Sam Ogami
14:28:26 <LauraBMiller> present+ Sam
14:28:32 <LauraBMiller> ack Mitch11
14:28:32 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:29:57 <LauraBMiller> Mitch11: Resize and reflow criteria are difficult to achieve on some devices and platforms but to say that we can't apply is a mistake
14:30:15 <LauraBMiller> to say we can't apply anywhere because there are someplaces that it doesn't apply would be a mistake.
14:30:20 <Chuck> q+
14:30:23 <LauraBMiller> q+ LauraBMiller
14:30:24 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:30:25 <LauraBMiller> ack Chuck
14:30:27 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:30:57 <LauraBMiller> Chuck: Taking chair hat, we have strong motivation and have not reached consensus and we seem light on normal participants.
14:31:01 <LauraBMiller> Can we poll the group.
14:31:21 <LauraBMiller> 1. continue 2. best practice
14:31:22 <Chuck> q+ Sam Ogami
14:31:30 <LauraBMiller> Q+ sam ogami
14:31:31 <Chuck> ack Ogami
14:31:32 <mitch11> q+
14:31:34 <LauraBMiller> ack sam ogami
14:31:39 <Chuck> ack Sam
14:32:04 <LauraBMiller> Sam Ogami, would best practice negate that in any way.
14:32:18 <Chuck> q+
14:32:34 <LauraBMiller> ack LauraBMiller
14:32:38 <dmontalvo> ack laura
14:34:04 <dmontalvo> q?
14:34:06 <LauraBMiller> LauraBMiller: can we do both
14:34:07 <Chuck> Laura:  Can we do both?  Describe where it's applicable and do best practice where not?
14:34:21 <LauraBMiller> ack Mitch11
14:34:30 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:34:33 <LauraBMiller> ack Chuck
14:35:13 <LauraBMiller> Chuck: not trying to dictate what this group does. Trying to throw out ideas and provide options for how to move forward
14:35:54 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to adding what we have covered or perhaps write a paper or note on what we have reviewed in 2023 as current state of this particular criteria. We've done a lot of research and that should be showcased somewhere.
14:36:10 <LauraBMiller>  Sam's question was what's the difference between Best practice and Success Criteria?
14:36:25 <maryjom> poll: 1. Continue working on CSS pixel definition 2. Work toward making requirements using CSS Pixels a best practice 3. A combination of the two (do both).
14:37:28 <LauraBMiller> MaryJoM: 508 decided to exclude particular requirements for anything outside of Web.
14:37:38 <LauraBMiller> EN did that as well but more as a best practices
14:38:07 <mitch11> q+
14:38:33 <dmontalvo> q?
14:38:34 <loicmn> q+ to give more info on "best practice" in WCAG2ICT v1
14:38:38 <LauraBMiller> Ack Mitch11
14:38:54 <dmontalvo> ack mitch
14:38:55 <LauraBMiller> Mitch11: consistent identification couldn't be by definition applied to sets.
14:39:06 <LauraBMiller> But would make sense to be consistent within an app.
14:39:25 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#navigation-mechanisms-skip
14:39:37 <Chuck> q+
14:40:15 <LauraBMiller> Mitch11: Clarification what is the poll about, is it about reflow or any criteria. Propose that we provide the notes for the first one. Make a separate proposal for the second
14:40:46 <LauraBMiller> MaryJoM: added to IRC the note for best practice.  (note 3)
14:40:52 <LauraBMiller> ack Loicmn
14:40:52 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to give more info on "best practice" in WCAG2ICT v1
14:40:57 <maryjom> ack loicmn
14:41:00 <dmontalvo> ack lo
14:41:36 <LauraBMiller> Loicmn: some people did not understand that pixel is a device independent measure.
14:42:06 <LauraBMiller> Tend to keep pixel as is. Then add notes to explain when and how it applies
14:42:43 <LauraBMiller> How we dealt with idea of best practices in EN, when it is rare, we kept it out of the EN standard.
14:42:48 <maryjom> q?
14:43:06 <dmontalvo> q?
14:43:26 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:43:26 <LauraBMiller> ack chuck
14:44:43 <dmontalvo> q?
14:44:59 <LauraBMiller> q+ to ask did we answer Mitch11 question
14:45:06 <LauraBMiller> is this a poll of just this example?
14:45:55 <LauraBMiller> ack LauraBMiller
14:45:55 <Zakim> LauraBMiller, you wanted to ask did we answer Mitch11 question
14:46:02 <LauraBMiller> is this just a poll of this particular item.
14:46:17 <Chuck> proposed Poll option 1)  Continue working on this standard, 2) work to make best practice 3) combination of the 2, 4) move on to another standard which uses CSS pixel and try to craft that one.
14:46:45 <mitch11> q+
14:47:07 <LauraBMiller> ack Mitch11
14:47:28 <LauraBMiller> Mitch11 do we use device independent pixel and attach to target size?
14:47:33 <dmontalvo> ack mitch
14:47:38 <Chuck> q+
14:47:42 <Chuck> q+ Sam
14:47:44 <LauraBMiller> ack chuck
14:47:46 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:48:05 <LauraBMiller> Chuck had proposed a poll. Option 4 was to leave this for now. Move to another one using pixels.
14:48:12 <LauraBMiller> Solve for that one to get data.
14:48:32 <LauraBMiller> Use the results to determine how to move forward on this one
14:48:43 <LauraBMiller> Maryjom: that puts us into 2.2
14:48:43 <dmontalvo> q+  to say we should probably change "standard" to "sc"
14:48:56 <LauraBMiller> ack Sam
14:49:00 <Chuck> ack Sam
14:49:12 <Chuck> repost of proposed Poll option 1)  Continue working on this standard, 2) work to make best practice 3) combination of the 2, 4) move on to another standard which uses CSS pixel and try to craft that one.
14:49:14 <LauraBMiller> Sam was going to ask about touch target size
14:49:24 <LauraBMiller> ack dmontalvo
14:49:24 <Zakim> dmontalvo, you wanted to say we should probably change "standard" to "sc"
14:49:39 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:49:52 <Chuck> proposed Poll option 1)  Continue working on this sc, 2) work to make best practice 3) combination of option 1 and 2 both, 4) move on to another sc which uses CSS pixel and try to craft that one.
14:49:52 <dmontalvo> q?
14:50:48 <Chuck> 3, then 4
14:51:00 <Sam> 3  then 4
14:51:01 <LauraBMiller> 4, then 3
14:51:33 <mitch11> 4; then 1 (focusing on platforms that define the pixel)
14:51:40 <loicmn> 4 ... and then see what happens :-)
14:52:40 <Sam> q+
14:52:58 <maryjom> ack sam
14:53:01 <LauraBMiller> ack sam
14:53:17 <LauraBMiller> Sam, for touch target size you can box that in by arms length etc.
14:53:23 <LauraBMiller> For Reflow you can't do that.
14:54:15 <LauraBMiller> Sam: you can't use larger distances than "arms length" for touch target
14:54:23 <Chuck> q+ to propose target size for a hopeful quick win?
14:54:26 <LauraBMiller> q+
14:54:35 <LauraBMiller> ack chuck
14:54:35 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to propose target size for a hopeful quick win?
14:54:36 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:54:48 <LauraBMiller> chuck: can we do target size for a quick win?
14:54:54 <maryjom> ack LauraBMiller
14:55:39 <Chuck> q+
14:55:40 <LauraBMiller> ack LauraBMiller
14:55:43 <loicmn> q+
14:55:43 <Chuck> ack Lau
14:55:49 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:55:51 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:55:57 <LauraBMiller> LauraBMiller: target size may not be simpler
14:56:02 <LauraBMiller> ack Chuck
14:56:15 <LauraBMiller> chuck would be worth trying to see what the challenges are.
14:56:35 <maryjom> ack loicmn
14:56:37 <LauraBMiller> ack Loicmn
14:56:39 <Chuck> ack loi
14:57:00 <LauraBMiller> Loicmn: is it by accident that all CSS pixel criteria are at risk in 2.2?
14:57:06 <Chuck> q+
14:57:44 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:58:25 <LauraBMiller> Chuck: not presuming that there is a relationship between css pixels being at risk and the difficulty we are having.
14:58:42 <Sam> phil is
14:59:07 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:59:16 <loicmn> salir
14:59:20 <loicmn> exit
14:59:26 <Sam> present+
15:07:24 <maryjom> regrets: Bruce Bailey, Mike Pluke, Olivia Hogan-Starke, Shawn Thompson, Fernanda Bonnin, Bryan Trogdon
15:07:24 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom