Meeting minutes
<jamesn> title: ARIA WG
<chlane> chlane+
I can scribe!
New Issue Triage
https://
jamesn: move to authoring practices
https://
peter: this might be an aria issue
peter: might be a scott issue
jamesn: I'll add him to the issue
https://
jamesn: I think this is in progress, steve is looking at it
New PR Triage
<jamesn> https://
jamesn: cyns can you add comments on this?
jamesn: I added you as a reviewer
cyns: lets add james craig to get an implementer to look
Deep Dive planning Brief Status Updates
jamesn: I prefer not to have one next week, unless anyone really wants one
cyns: works for me I have a conflict anyway
jamesn: so the week after?
jamesn: we need a dpub aria meeting
jamesn: we could do it at an earlier hour to make it easier for everyone to attend
jamesn: we also need a catch up with open ui, maybe the week of April 21st?
cyns: can we do it 28th instead I can't make that week
jamesn: I'd like if we can do monthly or every other month with open ui?
cyns: can we do dialog 1st or 2nd week of may?
jamesn: I thinkw e can make progress without a meeting on some related issues
cyns: we can cancel it if necessary
jamesn: 5th of may holding for dialog deep dive
ACTION: james to schedule Dialog 5th May, OpenUI April 28
<trackbot> 'james' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jcraig, jnurthen).
ACTION: jnurthen to schedule Dialog 5th May, OpenUI April 28
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2167 - Schedule dialog 5th may, openui april 28 [on James Nurthen - due 2022-04-14].
Handling Author Errors: form & region roles
jamesn: maybe we should skip until we have scott
sarah_higley: I think we should just merge this
jamesn: we have three approving reviewers - peter can you merge?
peter: yup
Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided
sarah_higley: the thing that scott brought up on the PR, but it points to something bugger, if you have roving tab index instead of active descent, then you want the one with tabindex 0 to have implicit selection, so what if they all have tabindex 0, this points to the broader issue that it is hard to assume based on the wide variety of how listboxs are authored, it is had to assume implicit selection.
sarah_higley: so if they all have tabindex=0, do they all get implicit selection?
matt_king: we made some rules about implicit selection last year... there are conditions underwhich user agents can assume implicit selection, by having those rules we were trying to accommodate legacy implementation, where people didn't specify selection at all in their implementation -- to make up for authors lack of explicit selection
sarah_higley: yeah, but the changes we made last year -- we took things in tree and added them to listbox. we didn't introduce a new functional change so much as we made something more explicit in listbox
sarah_higley: this is also a problem in tree
matt_king: so you are bring up a possibility that there should be no implicit selection based on focus -- but the primary objector is aaron
matt_king: I'm not so I agree with him
matt_king: ultimately, some of us would like to move implicit selection completely from the spec. which would be a different PR from this PR
sarah_higley: yes, but it would solve this PR
<chlane> aria/pull/1683 +1 to removing implicit selection
cyns: I am nervous about removing defaults
matt_king: it is a behavior that is being disallowed in more and more cases, and it is more "error correction" that implicit selection
matt_king: screen readers don't always tell you when something is selected, they tell you when it is not selected. does the non announcment of selection imply selection is a question we are discussing in APG
jamesn: sounds like we are going into a bigger rabbit hole than this PR is supposed to fix
sarah_higley: this rabbit hole did exist earlier. we talked about the issue where implicit selection is likely to be wrong, and we decided to go ahead anyway, and now there is just more and more reasons it is likely to be wrong. the problem with this change is that we say the browsers is going to guess as selection
<jamesn> https://
jamesn: that is not what I'm reading in the original
jamesn: previously, we it was using active-descendant, you only go the selection only got the selection WHEN the box has the dom focus
jamesn: the current language is confusing
matt_king: that is the problem with implicit selection, is that it relies on focus
matt_king: the user agent has to make a change to the authors content by making the selection stay after focus moves
cyns: why can't it do implicit selection when there is no focus
sarah_higley: the screen reader is communicated persistent selection where as there is no way to know whether that is intended
matt_king: if you have an entry int he listbox is "choose an item", should that be considered "selected"?
cyns: in an html select box it would be considered selected
sarah_higley: we have a focus without roving tab index in a pattern we made. All children are in the tab order in the dom, even though in reality the widget controls the focus, when nothing is selected, everything is considered selected by the browser
jamesn: do we have authoring guidance on this?
matt_king: yes
matt_king: it says ALWAYS use aria-selected
bryan: I'm favor of ignoring it
+1
cyns: should I close the issue as not a problem?
jamesn: it doesn't seem like we can make it better in enough cases to make it worth doing?
sarah_higley: should we add an authors should or must to clarify what should be done?
jamesn: "must" if you want the user to know for sure what is selected
jamesn: maybe we just point to the authoring guidance. we should have more links. we don't need a should/must
matt_king: good to have normative statements in aria to support APG
Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles
jamesn: this is a reminder to everyone to look at this and comment and participate! :)
<pkra> https://
sarah_higley: I put an issue comment in with proposed specific thing
<jamesn> https://
jamesn: if we didn't change children presentational, can we make a normative must so that it is not included in any of these?
sarah_higley: the point is to allow siblings or children
jamesn: lets give it a week for comments, then try doing a PR?
When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? More In Depth Discussion agendabot]
<pkra> PR is https://
jamesn: everyone, please read comments! and comment, thanks. there are people who have been asked to review in teh issue
jamesn: simplification of accname for hidden subtrees
jamesn: its a significant change, the more eyes the better~
cyns: I'll add myself as a reviewer
Add combobox value support for aria#1225
spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one
spectranaut: there's some discussion of an implicit value for combobox. when thinking about how to test that for Core AAM or anything, there's no spec for what it should be mapped to
spectranaut: plus, what do we do about accname if this is the case?
spectranaut: basically, there's not a lot of discussiona bout this case so I'm not sure what to do
bryan: I'd love to see a way to set an implicit value
jamesn: hurrah for that
jamesn: Matt, what do you think about this? if it were readonly or selectonly for instance?
matt_king: its name would be computed from content, basically. that content then is the value. In other words, what's the name if you ignore the label?
bryan: that doesn't translate well in the property mappings
spectranaut: that's what we're trying to fix
bryan: historically, you can have more than just that plain text content.\
matt_king: it's an authoring requirement that the content is the value
matt_king: if there's an icon in it, it has to be separate. so, if it's a select only combobox, it has to follow authoring requirements
matt_king: ideally*
matt_king: since we don't have value text, and at the time, there were other issues with value text so we figured we'd do this later
bryan: got it - so in another way, why is it a problem to support value text on a combobox?
spectranaut: let me rephrease, thank you for context
spectranaut: problem is we say how to specify the value, but in HTML AAM we have nothing for how to map that from a role=combobox
matt_king: it should be similar to how you specify the value for a <select>
spectranaut: so do we reference that? and if so, where does it belong?
matt_king: not necessarily referencing, but mimicking
matt_king: so basically in other words, how to we specify and map in the accessibility API, HTML AAM?
matt_king: would this be mapped similar to an aria select-only combobox then?
jamesn: i don't think HTML AAM covers that
jamesn: i'd also like to ask: how do we map the value of a textbox in core AAM?
bryan: it supports aria-valuetext
cyns: it doesn't
scotto: why would it, the value is in the textbox
jamesn: looks like it might inherit some things
matt_king: this seems like the exact same thing we're trying to achieve with spectranaut's question
Jory: is there some nuance with this, though?
matt_king: maybe in some javascript way, but that might depend on if you want a different value than the inner content
scotto: the option element works in the reverse in terms of aria-selected than a select does
matt_king: i think jamesn was on the right track, not sure there's a meaningful difference from role=combobox with editable content or not - the value is computed in the same way
bryan: i don't think there should be a difference if it's editable or not. but you should be able to set aria-labels or -labelledby if you'd like
jamesn: problem then is we don't say how to map values?
[general consensus]
spectranaut: i think this is a worthy consideration for a next todo
matt_king: we'd still need text cases, and arguably that might have to come first
matt_king: or at least with a lot of research
spectranaut: where do those tests belong, if not core AAM or HTML AAM?
spectranaut: or, where are the ARIA spec tests?
jamesn: core AAM
jamesn: the tests are in core AAM - every normative statement in ARIA has tests there
jamesn: this is definitely something we need to resolve for 1.2
jamesn: i'll talk to spectranaut about this and see what we can figure out