IRC log of aria on 2022-04-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:02:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #aria

17:02:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-irc

17:02:10 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

17:02:10 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn

17:02:43 [jamesn]

title: ARIA WG

17:03:46 [jamesn]

agendabot, find agenda

17:03:46 [agendabot]

jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...

17:03:46 [agendabot]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20220407T130000

17:03:46 [agendabot]

clear agenda

17:03:46 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3v1v5YC

17:03:47 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JsBjWV

17:03:49 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates Brief Status Updates

17:03:52 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683

17:03:54 [sarah_higley]

sarah_higley has joined #aria

17:03:59 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661

17:04:00 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles https://gist.github.com/smhigley/8dbe67f834cc472e3a14bf6b289e6f0c

17:04:04 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 More In Depth Discussion

17:04:07 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> Add combobox value support for aria#1225 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/76

17:04:09 [sarah_higley]

present+

17:04:10 [agendabot]

agenda+ -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996

17:04:18 [chlane]

chlane+

17:04:34 [myasonik]

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17:06:41 [joeyang]

joeyang has joined #aria

17:06:55 [joeyang]

present+

17:08:44 [spectranaut]

present+

17:08:45 [jamesn]

agenda?

17:09:03 [spectranaut]

I can scribe!

17:09:16 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:09:16 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3v1v5YC -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:09:27 [spectranaut]

scribe: spectranaut

17:09:41 [spectranaut]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1718

17:09:42 [Jem]

Jem has joined #aria

17:09:54 [Jem]

present+

17:09:56 [spectranaut]

jamesn: move to authoring practices

17:10:13 [spectranaut]

https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/42

17:10:37 [spectranaut]

peter: this might be an aria issue

17:10:44 [spectranaut]

peter: might be a scott issue

17:11:03 [myasonik]

present+

17:11:16 [spectranaut]

jamesn: I'll add him to the issue

17:12:04 [spectranaut]

https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/394

17:12:25 [spectranaut]

jamesn: I think this is in progress, steve is looking at it

17:12:30 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:12:30 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JsBjWV -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:12:39 [jamesn]

https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/395

17:13:15 [spectranaut]

jamesn: cyns can you add comments on this?

17:13:30 [spectranaut]

jamesn: I added you as a reviewer

17:14:00 [siri]

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17:14:09 [spectranaut]

cyns: lets add james craig to get an implementer to look

17:14:17 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:14:17 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates Brief Status Updates -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:14:36 [spectranaut]

jamesn: I prefer not to have one next week, unless anyone really wants one

17:14:49 [spectranaut]

cyns: works for me I have a conflict anyway

17:14:56 [spectranaut]

jamesn: so the week after?

17:15:03 [spectranaut]

jamesn: we need a dpub aria meeting

17:15:24 [spectranaut]

jamesn: we could do it at an earlier hour to make it easier for everyone to attend

17:15:45 [spectranaut]

jamesn: we also need a catch up with open ui, maybe the week of April 21st?

17:15:54 [spectranaut]

cyns: can we do it 28th instead I can't make that week

17:16:18 [spectranaut]

jamesn: I'd like if we can do monthly or every other month with open ui?

17:16:28 [spectranaut]

cyns: can we do dialog 1st or 2nd week of may?

17:16:43 [spectranaut]

jamesn: I thinkw e can make progress without a meeting on some related issues

17:16:53 [spectranaut]

cyns: we can cancel it if necessary

17:17:07 [spectranaut]

jamesn: 5th of may holding for dialog deep dive

17:17:12 [jamesn]

action: james to schedule Dialog 5th May, OpenUI April 28

17:17:13 [trackbot]

'james' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jcraig, jnurthen).

17:17:24 [jamesn]

action: jnurthen to schedule Dialog 5th May, OpenUI April 28

17:17:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2167 - Schedule dialog 5th may, openui april 28 [on James Nurthen - due 2022-04-14].

17:17:35 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:17:35 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:17:49 [siri]

present +

17:18:04 [spectranaut]

jamesn: maybe we should skip until we have scott

17:18:22 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: I think we should just merge this

17:18:33 [spectranaut]

jamesn: we have three approving reviewers

17:18:45 [spectranaut]

jamesn: peter can you merge?

17:18:51 [spectranaut]

peter: yup

17:18:55 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:18:55 [Zakim]

agendum 5 -- -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661 -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:20:18 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: the thing that scott brought up on the PR, but it points to something bugger, if you have roving tab index instead of active descent, then you want the one with tabindex 0 to have implicit selection, so what if they all have tabindex 0, this points to the broader issue that it is hard to assume based on the wide variety of how listboxs are authored, it is had to assume implicit selection.

17:20:31 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: so if they all have tabindex=0, do they all get implicit selection?

17:22:00 [spectranaut]

matt_king: we made some rules about implicit selection last year... there are conditions underwhich user agents can assume implicit selection, by having those rules we were trying to accommodate legacy implementation, where people didn't specify selection at all in their implementation -- to make up for authors lack of explicit selection

17:22:14 [jamesn]

q+

17:22:40 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: yeah, but the changes we made last year -- we took things in tree and added them to listbox. we didn't introduce a new functional change so much as we made something more explicit in listbox

17:22:49 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: this is also a problem in tree

17:23:16 [spectranaut]

matt_king: so you are bring up a possibility that there should be no implicit selection based on focus -- but the primary objector is aaron

17:23:50 [spectranaut]

matt_king: I'm not so I agree with him

17:24:11 [spectranaut]

matt_king: ultimately, some of us would like to move implicit selection completely from the spec. which would be a different PR from this PR

17:24:20 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: yes, but it would solve this PR

17:24:24 [chlane]

aria/pull/1683 +1 to removing implicit selection

17:24:33 [spectranaut]

cyns: I am nervous about removing defaults

17:25:02 [spectranaut]

matt_king: it is a behavior that is being disallowed in more and more cases, and it is more "error correction" that implicit selection

17:25:41 [spectranaut]

matt_king: screen readers don't always tell you when something is selected, they tell you when it is not selected. does the non announcment of selection imply selection is a question we are discussing in APG

17:26:01 [spectranaut]

jamesn: sounds like we are going into a bigger rabbit hole than this PR is supposed to fix

17:26:51 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: this rabbit hole did exist earlier. we talked about the issue where implicit selection is likely to be wrong, and we decided to go ahead anyway, and now there is just more and more reasons it is likely to be wrong. the problem with this change is that we say the browsers is going to guess as selection

17:26:59 [jamesn]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1682/files

17:27:06 [spectranaut]

jamesn: that is not what I'm reading in the original

17:27:36 [spectranaut]

jamesn: previously, we it was using active-descendant, you only go the selection only got the selection WHEN the box has the dom focus

17:27:50 [spectranaut]

jamesn: the current language is confusing

17:28:07 [spectranaut]

matt_king: that is the problem with implicit selection, is that it relies on focus

17:28:24 [spectranaut]

matt_king: the user agent has to make a change to the authors content by making the selection stay after focus moves

17:28:38 [spectranaut]

cyns: why can't it do implicit selection when there is no focus

17:29:01 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: the screen reader is communicated persistent selection where as there is no way to know whether that is intended

17:29:49 [spectranaut]

matt_king: if you have an entry int he listbox is "choose an item", should that be considered "selected"?

17:29:58 [spectranaut]

cyns: in an html select box it would be considered selected

17:30:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria

17:30:18 [MarkMcCarthy]

present+

17:30:27 [MarkMcCarthy]

RRSAgent, make minutes please

17:30:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy

17:31:01 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: we have a focus without roving tab index in a pattern we made. All children are in the tab order in the dom, even though in reality the widget controls the focus, when nothing is selected, everything is considered selected by the browser

17:31:47 [spectranaut]

jamesn: do we have authoring guidance on this?

17:31:50 [spectranaut]

matt_king: yes

17:32:06 [spectranaut]

matt_king: it says ALWAYS use aria-selected

17:33:23 [spectranaut]

bryan: I'm favor of ignoring it

17:33:28 [MarkMcCarthy]

+1

17:33:37 [spectranaut]

cyns: should I close the issue as not a problem?

17:33:49 [spectranaut]

jamesn: it doesn't seem like we can make it better in enough cases to make it worth doing?

17:34:05 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: should we add an authors should or must to clarify what should be done?

17:34:28 [spectranaut]

jamesn: "must" if you want the user to know for sure what is selected

17:34:57 [spectranaut]

jamesn: maybe we just point to the authoring guidance. we should have more links. we don't need a should/must

17:35:13 [spectranaut]

matt_king: good to have normative statements in aria to support APG

17:35:16 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:35:16 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, spectranaut

17:35:20 [jamesn]

ack me

17:35:24 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:35:24 [Zakim]

agendum 6 -- -> Secondary actions on items in composite widget roles https://gist.github.com/smhigley/8dbe67f834cc472e3a14bf6b289e6f0c -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:35:51 [spectranaut]

jamesn: this is a reminder to everyone to look at this and comment and participate! :)

17:36:12 [pkra]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440#issuecomment-1091984559

17:36:13 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: I put an issue comment in with proposed specific thing

17:36:18 [jamesn]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1440

17:37:38 [spectranaut]

jamesn: if we didn't change children presentational, can we make a normative must so that it is not included in any of these?

17:37:47 [spectranaut]

sarah_higley: the point is to allow siblings or children

17:38:04 [spectranaut]

jamesn: lets give it a week for comments, then try doing a PR?

17:38:11 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:38:11 [Zakim]

agendum 7 -- -> When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57 More In Depth Discussion -- taken up [from

17:38:14 [Zakim]

... agendabot]

17:38:45 [pkra]

PR is https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/150 ?

17:39:02 [spectranaut]

jamesn: everyone, please read comments! and comment, thanks. there are people who have been asked to review in teh issue

17:39:13 [spectranaut]

jamesn: simplification of accname for hidden subtrees

17:39:23 [spectranaut]

jamesn: its a significant change, the more eyes the better~

17:39:41 [spectranaut]

cyns: I'll add myself as a reviewer

17:39:44 [spectranaut]

zakim, next item

17:39:44 [Zakim]

agendum 8 -- -> Add combobox value support for aria#1225 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/76 -- taken up [from agendabot]

17:40:29 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one

17:41:01 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: there's some discussion of an implicit value for combobox. when thinking about how to test that for CORE AAM or anything, there's no spec for what it should be mapped to

17:41:09 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/CORE/Core

17:41:29 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: plus, what do we do about accname?

17:41:43 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/do about accname?/do about accname if this is the case?

17:42:05 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: basically, there's not a lot of discussiona bout this case so I'm not sure what to do

17:42:16 [MarkMcCarthy]

bryan: I'd love to see a way to set an implicit value

17:42:21 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: hurrah for that

17:42:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: Matt, what do you think about this? if it were readonly or selectonly for instance?

17:43:50 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: its name would be computed from content, basically. that content then is the value. In other words, what's the name if you ignore the label?

17:44:05 [MarkMcCarthy]

bryan: that doesn't translate well in the property mappings

17:44:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: that's what we're trying to fix

17:45:01 [MarkMcCarthy]

bryan: historically, you can have more than just that plain text content.\

17:45:13 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: it's an authoring requirement that the content is the value

17:45:50 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: if there's an icon in it, it has to be separate. so, if it's a select only combobox, it has to follow authoring requirements

17:45:59 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: ideally*

17:46:22 [spectranaut]

q+

17:46:27 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: since we don't have value text, and at the time, there were other issues with value text so we figured we'd do this later

17:46:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

bryan: got it - so in another way, why is it a problem to support value text on a combobox?

17:46:56 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: let me rephrease, thank you for context

17:47:24 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: problem is we say how to specify the value, but in HTML AAM we have nothing for how to map that from a role=combobox

17:47:54 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: it should be similar to how you specify the value for a <select>

17:48:03 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: so do we reference that? and if so, where does it belong?

17:48:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: not necessarily referencing, but mimicking

17:49:17 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: so basically, how to we specify this in the accessibility API, HTML AAM?

17:49:26 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/basically,/basically in other words,

17:50:21 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/specify this/specify and map

17:50:40 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: would this be mapped similar to an aria select-only combobox then?

17:50:50 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: i don't think HTML AAM covers that

17:51:22 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: i'd also like to ask: how do we map the value of a textbox in core AAM?

17:51:35 [MarkMcCarthy]

bryan: it supports aria-valuetext

17:52:11 [MarkMcCarthy]

cyns: it doesn't

17:52:21 [MarkMcCarthy]

scotto: why would it, the value is in the textbox

17:52:30 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: looks like it might inherit some things

17:52:59 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: this seems like the exact same thing we're trying to achieve with spectranaut'

17:53:18 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/spectranaut'/spectranaut's question

17:53:36 [MarkMcCarthy]

Jory: is there some nuance with this, though?

17:53:41 [MarkMcCarthy]

q?

17:54:34 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: maybe in some javascript way, but that might depend on if you want a different value than the inner content

17:55:01 [MarkMcCarthy]

scotto: the option element works in the reverse in terms of aria-selected than a select does

17:56:25 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: i think jamesn was on the right track, not sure there's a meaningful difference from role=combobox with editable content or not - the value is computed in the same way

17:56:49 [MarkMcCarthy]

bryan: i don't think there should be a difference if it's editable or not. but you should be able to set aria-labels or -labelledby if you'd like

17:56:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

q?

17:57:02 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: problem then is we don't say how to map values?

17:57:13 [MarkMcCarthy]

[general consensus]

17:57:31 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: i think this is a worthy consideration for a next todo

17:57:34 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: we'

17:57:51 [MarkMcCarthy]

s/we'/we'd still need text cases, and arguably that might have to come first

17:58:03 [MarkMcCarthy]

matt_king: or at least with a lot of research

17:58:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: where do those tests belong, if not core AAM or HTML AAM?

17:58:25 [MarkMcCarthy]

spectranaut: or, where are the ARIA spec tests?

17:58:28 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: core AAM

17:58:45 [MarkMcCarthy]

ack spectranaut

17:59:12 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: the tests are in core AAM - every normative statement in ARIA has tests there

17:59:39 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: this is definitely something we need to resolve for 1.2

18:00:03 [MarkMcCarthy]

jamesn: i'll talk to spectranaut about this and see what we can figure out

18:00:07 [MarkMcCarthy]

Zakim, who is here?

18:00:07 [Zakim]

Present: sarah_higley, joeyang, spectranaut, Jem, myasonik, MarkMcCarthy

18:00:09 [Zakim]

On IRC I see MarkMcCarthy, siri, Jem, joeyang, myasonik, sarah_higley, RRSAgent, Zakim, pkra, chlane, tzviya, MichaelC, joanie, `join_subline, spectranaut, timeless_, ZoeBijl,

18:00:09 [Zakim]

... slightlyoff, gregwhitworth, bigbluehat, dcaro, JonathanNeal, Josh_Soref_, github-bot, trackbot, jamesn, jcraig, agendabot

18:00:20 [MarkMcCarthy]

present+ BryanGaraventa

18:00:57 [MarkMcCarthy]

present+ JoryCunningham ScottO pkra, siri, chlane

18:01:15 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:01:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn

18:05:18 [bkardell_]

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Jem has joined #aria

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19:10:34 [jamesn]

scribe: MarkMcCarthy

19:10:43 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:10:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn

19:14:12 [jamesn]

s/spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/scribeNick: MarkMcCarthy spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/

19:14:22 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:14:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn

19:20:31 [jamesn]

s/we have three approving reviewers/we have three approving reviewers - peter can you merge?/

19:21:47 [jamesn]

s/jamesn: peter can you merge?/scribe+ MarkMcCarthy/

19:21:57 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:21:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn

19:22:51 [jamesn]

s/scribeNick: MarkMcCarthy spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/spectranaut: i was looking through blocking issues and this looks like a difficult one/

19:22:53 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:22:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn

19:57:07 [jamesn]

Meeting: ARIA WG

19:57:18 [jamesn]

chair: JamesNurthen

19:57:21 [jamesn]

rrsagent, make minutes

19:57:21 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn

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22:53:35 [chlane]

quit

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ls