Meeting minutes
<Jemma> thanks so much Jaunita!
[New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3B3vxrM)
James: So these two new issues are based on some conversations I've been having with Marcos about the ARIA spec. There's an agenda item later for this. I propose closing this item and addressing this later
[New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3yXaa9k)
jamesn: These are relating to the same thing, so propose deferring until later
[Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3r6sfiJ)
jamesn: Anyone have anything they'd like to propose?
Cynthia: Test case working group
jamesn: We'll do that next week
jamesn: Will send agenda as soon as possible.
[TPAC 2021 - Diversity Fund](https://www.w3.org/blog/2021/06/diversity-and-inclusion-at-w3c-inclusion-fund-and-fellowships-for-tpac-2021/)
jamesn: Jemma is there anything you want to add?
Jemma: I was a recipient. I encourage you to apply.
Jemma: We'll be sharing our awardees in mid-August
jamesn: This year is different
Jemma: We're awarding smaller amounts because there isn't travel this year
jamesn: There's leftover funds from 2020, right?
Jemma: We don't quite need to worry, because there are few applicants
jamesn: Don't be discouraged from applying because we have funding for those who qualify
Cynthia: Is participation important
Jemma: Good opportunity to be recognized or get involved with the W3C
jamesn: W3C's largest cross-group meeting
jamesn: Next year it will be in Vancouver
Jemma: It sometimes costs a lot to go to TPAC, so the scholarship can be helpful
<Jemma> Applications opened today, until August 15, 2021
jamesn: Applications are open until August 15th. Meeting is either in September or October
<MichaelC> week of 18 Oct: breakouts; week of 24 Oct: group meetings
jamesn: Scholarship covers items needed to attend virtually.
Jemma: Does this cover fee waivers?
<Jemma> (Note: being designed for people who would like to participate in our standards work or who already do, the form requires applicants to have a W3C account. Request one here.) The application form gives information on eligibility and how the applications will be assessed. Please, share this information with your teams, your friends that are concerned with TPAC participation, on your social networks, enterprise networks, at virtual meet-ups, etc.
<Jemma> Also, consider encouraging someone directly if you think W3C could benefit from their attendance at TPAC.)
MichaelC: Fee waivers are addressed separately
jamesn: Can you help encourage organizers to add the website.
MichaelC: Okay
[Important Terms](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1509)
<jamesn> https://
jamesn: We exported all of those terms to the broader cross-reference in web-ref. We now have terms that are causing conflicts with other terms in other specs, which is reasonable. Some are easy, and removing the export is easy to do. But there are a number of terms we're defining in our specification that we're defining general terms like "event." We've been advised to stop doing that. We have a pull request on the spec to remove t[CUT]
jamesn: The major terms we're proposing to remove are: "attribute," "element," "DOM string," a few others as well such as "normative"
jamesn: There's a whole bunch in this Pull Request where we're proposing removing the definitions completely. I would like some comments on this and folks to review this.
jamesn: "Node" should refer to "DOM Node." "Attribute" and "element" don't have the same issue.
jamesn: "This needs some care and attention to make sure changes are correct"
jamesn: I'm happy to get rid of "DOM string" and "element." We should align to the definition used in markup languages. Why haven't we been doing it?
MichaelC: Wasn't a precedent at the time to do so.
jamesn: It's maybe time to remove a bit more of it.
MichaelC: We haven't done a purge, just carried items forward.
jamesn: We should be referring to other specifications where it makes sense.
jamesn: Any dissent?
<Jemma> question about opposite case - how do we deal with other spec, ACT to defin aria term?
<Jemma> +1 for clean up
+1 for clean up
jamesn: I'm going to work on this a bit more. Marcus wants to go further and added a few comments.
… "accessible object" should be "accessible node"
<BGaraventa> +1
Cynthia: I think we used "accessible object" intentionally to distinguish it from nodes
jamesn: Marcus wants definitions to be normative and not informative.
MichaelC: We had an explicit decision to make them informative, but cannot recall why
jamesn: WCAG has normative definitions, correct? What impact does that have?
MichaelC: I haven't heard any issues, but there are issues passing new success criteria.
jamesn: The issue with not making them not normative is that Respec will show warnings if you try to link to terms.
jamesn: Anyone else using our references will run into same issues
MichaelC: I ignore Respec warnings
… it is ideal to not have warnings so we should ask Respec to remove warnings
Cynthia: Should we just make them normative?
jamesn: We could break others' specs if we decide to revisit that decision later
Matt: I do see a problem having a normative statement return a definition that's not normative. Adds ambiguity.
… How many of our statements are exposed in that way
jamesn: Probably not many, but do not know offhand for sure
Matt: We should not move forward without knowing the answer to that question.
jamesn: I am concerned about scope of this Pull Request
Matt: +100
<cyns> +1
jamesn: I will close the comments that are being made in the PR and create an issue.
<cyns> +1 to michael
<Jemma> + 1 to solve the problme where the problem is located.
MichaelC: We should be solving the problem we're trying to solve. Is the issue the warnings?
[When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57)
<Jemma> Thanks again for all your work, James
<BGaraventa> apologies, can't unmute due to noisy environment
jamesn: What's the status
joanmarie: I don't know the resolution.
Cynthia: No discussions as far as I know.
jamesn: Aria-describedby is referencing a hidden span and still reading.
<jamesn> https://
Matt: Isn't that correct?
Cynthia: Apple has an implementation issue that interferes with this
Cynthia: Reference minutes from two weeks ago.
<BGaraventa> hidden elements don't have roles
Matt: Hidden items should be included.
jamesn: Here the parent is hidden and you're referencing the child of that hidden element
<jamesn> <button class="button_spectrum-ActionButton_f7ae1" type="button" aria-describedby="react-aria-5486891329-1"><span class="button_spectrum-ActionButton-label_f7ae1">Trigger Tooltip</span></button>
<jamesn> <div hidden=""><div class="tooltip_spectrum-Tooltip_f7ae1 spectrum-Tooltip--neutral tooltip_spectrum-Tooltip--top_f7ae1" id="react-aria-8353908568-1" role="tooltip" style="position: absolute; z-index: 100000; left: 728.625px; bottom: 572px; max-height: 526.5px;"><span class="tooltip_spectrum-Tooltip-label_f7ae1">Tooltip message.</span><span class="tooltip_spectrum-Tooltip-tip_f7ae1" style="left: 50.375px;"></span></div></div>
Cynthia: Apple takes the first level, so children of hidden items don't make it into the rendered DOM
Cynthia: The spec text is ambiguous as to what should happen here.
<BGaraventa> Deep dive +1
deep dive +1
Cynthia: Joanie and I will discuss next week
[Author Test results progress]()
jamesn: Deep dive next week on this
… Joanie, can I ask you to review the PRs?
Joanie: Already done.
jamesn: I'll merge them
jamesn: It would be awesome if more people could contribute.
jamesn: Will fix up and merge those. Please volunteer to do these though.
<jamesn> <html lang="en-US">
<jamesn> <head><title>Dialog MUST have name</title></head>
<jamesn> <body>
<jamesn> <!--
<jamesn> URL: https://
<jamesn> RULE: "Authors MUST provide an accessible name for a dialog, which can be done with the aria-label or aria-labelledby attribute."
<jamesn> -->
<jamesn> <div id="dialog-1" role="dialog">bar</div>
<jamesn> </body>
<jamesn> </html>
jamesn: More people should be writing tests.
jamesn: 20 or so test cases will be needed.
<BGaraventa> got to jump off to another meeting
jamesn: actually 15 test cases
<Jemma> wow!
<Jemma> that is awesome, Jaunita and William
rrs agent, make minutes