<Rachael> Discuss review of Editorial Review of Content Usable https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f4NhQMtQthDbShVje3evTqELBa9eR6eSyoA31Jjlgm4/edit#heading=h.38pppwromd4r

<scribe> scribe: Jennie

(group began with introductions)

Shawn: Education and Outreach group is excited about Content Usable document.
... Some of the information you are considering including, we already have on the main W3C WAI website
... Section on business considerations and aging populations of the market - could just point to existing information on WAI website
... We have a multi-page resource on Older Users and Web Accessibility
... There is a section in Content Usable on Usability Testing
... EO spent a lot of time considering this topic
... There is a web page on not only how to do it and why
... There is a more specific document on including users and evaluating accessibility
... There is also a suite on planning and managing web accessibility
... There is a resource on the overlap between accessibility and inclusion, and a page that introduces cognitive, learning and neurological issues
... There are examples of the barriers, and stories
... We would like to ensure you are aware of these resources
... In 2017 we were updating these resources, and asked this task force for help
... At that time you were busy with updating WCAG
... We would like to work together to ensure these resources include your input, and then have your resources point back to these pages

Rachael: Are intent is to keep this discussion short, and we will come back to this

Lisa: I think we want to give this serious time, so we do want to do this. We have other ideas to share. Maybe we can add that to the agenda?
... There are 2 directions ...1: we would like the proposal to integrate our content into yours ...2: we would like to link between both your information and ours
... We need to finish the group's input by November
... We are not quite ready to point to it in our resources because some of the issues aren't always addressed in a way we are comfortable with
... For instance working with users is a big issue with cognitive consent
... These kinds of issues need to be reviewed
... It is a bit more complicated than just pointing to the web pages

David F: I agree with Lisa. A lot of the redundancy is better suited to be in the COGA document, in the COGA realm

scribe: A lot of people think it can be plain language, for example, and it is not limited to that
... I don't think people would look in Education and Outreach for the cognitive information

Raachael: Thank you for coming. As you can hear it is not a simple thing

<Rachael> While we are wrapping up, everyne may want to click on this link to start a long load process. I will also share screen https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kFIuq0jqWmqNHuv7zP-XpKB8TIeU6xmKTIxUZfuvooM/edit#

Lisa: We need to make some video content, of people discussing our objectives of the patterns
... Is there someone that can help with video editing?

Shawn: If you go to a search engine and type in Cognitive Accessibility the 1st thing that comes up is the Education and Outreach page on the main WAI website
... We have a funded video project going on right now
... we could absolutely help with that, and we have funding to do it.

Lisa: Maybe we should schedule a call

David F: I could help with that as well

<Rachael> ACTION: Lisa, David and Shawn to follow up on video.

<trackbot> Error finding 'Lisa,'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/track/users>.

<Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kFIuq0jqWmqNHuv7zP-XpKB8TIeU6xmKTIxUZfuvooM/edit#heading=h.uguy7h2n5641

5-Minute awareness of EOWG resources

<shawn> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2020Sep/0005.html

Review edits

<Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kFIuq0jqWmqNHuv7zP-XpKB8TIeU6xmKTIxUZfuvooM/edit#heading=h.uguy7h2n5641

Rachael: We will spend the rest of the call reviewing EA's edits.

*thank you for sharing your screen Rachael!

Rachael: There are comments we do not need to discuss, such as semi colons
... Let's start on the summary (page 2), #5

<Rachael> When errors do occur the user should find it easy to correct them.

<Rachael> When errors occur the user should find it easy to correct them.

(group agreed with the revision)

<Rachael> If they do get distracted, headings and breadcrumbs can help orientate the user and help the user restore the context when it is lost.

Lisa: I do challenge the removal of the word "do"
... Ideally it is avoided in the first place, but sometimes it happens
... "do" indicates this
... When errors do occur, you should find a way to avoid them

<kirkwood> not a fan of the ’they’ (other) syntax

Rachael: Are you in favor of keeping "do"?

<Rachael> +1 to keep do, -1 to remove do

<LisaSeemanKest> +1 (keep)

<kirkwood> -1

<JustineP> 0

<LisaSeemanKest> can live isether way

EA: when verbally stressing "do" it clarifies the statement

<Fazio> +0

<LisaSeemanKest> +1 to jenny

<EA> +1 to Jennie's comment

<Rachael> Jennie: Suggest reframing using punctuation or vocabulary choice instead of visual representation

Lisa: How about "if unfortunately people make an error"

<Rachael> A good design will make errors less likely. Do not ask the user for more things then you need! When errors do occur the user should find it easy to correct them.

<JustineP> +1 to Jennie's comment particularly in the context of an individual who might be using a screen reader/AT

"When despite best efforts error continue to occur"

<Fazio> I don’t see the need to be polite

Lisa: Sometimes you have solved the problem - when users do get distracted, errors continue to occur

Rachael: "When users make mistakes"?

Lisa: I'm not sure if we are making it better

<Rachael> "If users make mistakes..."

<Rachael> "If users get distracted..."

Lisa: -1 - when is clearer than if

Fazio: It sounds like we are blaming the user (politely)
... I think that is problematic in the cognitive space

<EA> +1 David and that is the worry

Fazio: When an error occurs - this is matter of fact, and regardless of who's fault it is

Rachael: We started out with the concept: keep or remove "do" and then tried to restructure

<kirkwood> yes

Rachael: we are back to just removing do

Lisa: I can live with it

Rachael: I will say "remove the word do, and revisit if someone comes up with a better option"

<EA> I am going to have to openly admit that I am being British!!!

Rachael: Kirkwood also brought up the comment of the word "they"

<EA> +1

<Fazio> Ok by me

<JustineP> Fine with me

<kirkwood> +1

Rachael: we could replace they with users

<Fazio> +1

+1

Rachael: We are on #8

<Rachael> Making breadcrumbs clickable can also help the user undo mistakes

Rachael: in regards to using the word clickable - this is in #6 as well

<kirkwood> “selectble” awkward?

Rachael: because people use tablets frequently

<Fazio> actionable?

*clickable is considered "mouse centric" in some disability groups as well. And some with cognitive issues may use alternative access

Lisa: so we could say "selectable"

<Rachael> Suggestion: Providing breadcrumbs can also help the user undo mistakes

<kirkwood> +1 to providing

Rachael: I am wondering if breadcrumbs is the issue

<JustineP> Make it so that breadcrumbs can be selected...?

<EA> Yes we have what Lisa has said on Moodle

<Fazio> usable bread crumbs?

<Rachael> Providing linked breadcrumbs can also help the user under mistakes

<kirkwood> “actionable breadcrumbs”

Lisa: they are not always the breadcrumbs you need

<EA> 1

<EA> +1

<kirkwood> +1

<LisaSeemanKest> 0

<Fazio> +0

<Rachael> Providing linked breadcrumbs can also help the user undo mistakes

<Rachael> Making breadcrumbs links can also help the user undo mistakes

<EA> David has said 0 so I would love to know why

Rachael: Maybe we just take this sentence out, and recommend linked breadcrumbs

Lisa: The links can help them undo mistakes
... If people didn't understand that, from this example, then we can just remove it

<kirkwood> +1 to linked breadcrumbs

<JustineP> +1 to keeping the sentence for clarification

<LisaSeemanKest> can we have ten minets to review actions

<Rachael> Suggestion: breadcrumbs can help orientate the user and help the user restore the context when it is lost. Providing linked breadcrumbs can also help the user undo mistakes.

<Rachael> Can anyone not live with that?

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

+1

<kirkwood> +1

Rachael: Next is #8

<Rachael> original: If users have difficulty sending feedback, then you will not know if they are able to use the content or when they are experiencing problems.

<Rachael> Suggestion: If users have difficulty sending feedback, then you will never know if they are able to use the content or when they are experiencing problems.

0

won't?

(though I hesitate to use contractions)

<BetsyFurler_> Suggestion

<EA> I wanted to be very firm hence my 'never'

<Rachael> +1 original, -1 Suggestion

No preference

<JustineP> original -- "never" seems a bit extreme... just my thought

Lisa: Do we need the word "then"?

Rachael: probably not

<LisaSeemanKest> If users have difficulty sending feedback, you will never know if they are able to use the content or when they are experiencing problems.

Justine: Just my opinion, but "never know" seems extreme because there is a chance they might work through their issues

* good point Justine

<LisaSeemanKest> +1 ea

EA: for some that don't get a chance to see what has gone wrong, it will be compounded

<Rachael> If users have difficulty sending feedback, you will not know that the user is unable to use the content or are experiencing problems.

Rachael: I suggest stressing that you may not know. If softens it

<Rachael> If users have difficulty sending feedback, you will not know that the user is unable to use the content or experiencing problems.

<kirkwood> +1

*Or flip the phrases?

<LisaSeemanKest> 0

<Rachael> You will not know that the user is unable to use the content or experiencing problems if the user has difficulty sending feedback.

<Rachael> Jennie: Understand the concern that sometimes there are other ways to get information but also the group's concern that its important to stress it.

<Fazio> Usability barriers may, or most likely, get reported if notification mechanisms pose difficulties to users

<Rachael> Option 1: never in current sentect

<Rachael> option 2: leave the current sentence

<Rachael> option 3: Understand the concern that sometimes there are other ways to get information but also the group's concern that its important to stress it.

<Fazio> not get reported I mean

<BetsyFurler_> 3

<Rachael> option 4: Usability barriers may not, or most likely will not, get reported if notification mechanisms pose difficulties to users

<BetsyFurler_> Changing my opinion to 4

<Rachael> option 4: Usability barriers may not get reported if notification mechanisms pose difficulties to users

<JustineP> 4

<kirkwood> 4

Option 4 without the notification mechanisms

<Rachael> Usability barriers may not get reported if notification mechanisms pose difficulties to users.

Resuggest If users have difficulty sending feedback, you will not know that the user is unable to use the content or experiencing problems.

<Rachael> Usability barriers may not get reported if providing feedback is difficult.

Lisa: remove the end of Jennie's suggestion

<Rachael> Option 1: If users have difficulty sending feedback, you will not know that the user is unable to use the content

<Rachael> Option 2: Usability barriers may not get reported if providing feedback is difficult.

<LisaSeemanKest> option 1+1

<kirkwood> 2

<BetsyFurler_> 2

1 - because it may not just be usability barriers

<Fazio> Option 2

<Rachael> 1

<kirkwood> agree with Jennie

<kirkwood> 1

Lisa: switching topics to TPAC
... I'm not sure if I can attend next week's meeting

<Rachael> Who can make the meeting next week?

Lisa: there is a conflicting meeting

Rachael: Who can make the meeting next week?

<Rachael> +1 if you can make next week.

<BetsyFurler_> +1

<EA> -1

<LisaSeemanKest> -1

+1

<Fazio> I’m super busy editing training videos

Rachael: Are you comfortable if we keep editing and I chair?

Lisa: yes

<Rachael> We will hold a meeting next week to keep momentum on edits and issues.

<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#updated_time_line_-April_2020

<EA> I am sorry it is AAC awareness week and I must try to get to the webinar

<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Actions

<kirkwood> i’m unsure about next week.

Planning and actions

Rachael: The patterns - have those with ones assigned have you progressed?

I have started mine, and it is "in process" (smile)

<EA> I fiddled with a bit of a symbols one in the google doc I was reviewing

<kirkwood> in process yes not finished

Fazio: I will start mine this week

Lisa: We did have a call about how to get started. If you need a call maybe someone can help

Fazio: Rachael sent a video, that should help

Rachael: Video and notes were sent to the COGA list

Lisa: there were other actions, if anyone has free time

Betsy: I have time, and just need instructions

Lisa: in the document we have an objective summary at the beginning of the design guide
... we don't have them for each, or consistent
... Can you make them consistent, expand the summary - do you want to review the objective text?
... and the summary introducing them?

*Rachael - I have to drop - can you scribe?

*thank you!

<Rachael> Betsy: I think so.

<BetsyFurler_> That would be great

<Fazio> Have to leave sorry

<Rachael> Rachael: Suggest working iwth Lisa and Rachael to get that work started.

<Rachael> Lisa: We should use the editorial copy from ea (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kFIuq0jqWmqNHuv7zP-XpKB8TIeU6xmKTIxUZfuvooM/edit#)

<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/

<Rachael> ..she's already done edits.

<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#updated_time_line_-April_2020

<LisaSeemanKest> Review Objective text: (betsy) Some Objectives in the Design Guide have text eg Obj 1 and others have none eg Obj 2. They should all have text to expand on Objective outlines in the Summary section and help to to understand the broad "Themes" before diving into the Pattern details.

<EA> Many thanks and so sorry to cause more work

<Rachael> Rachael: Thank you to EA for all the hard work reviewing and editing. Thank you all for the work on the patterns. Please keep doing so. Reach out to Lisa and RAchael with questions.

<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#summary

<shawn> s/Lisa: Maybe we should schedule a call/Lisa: Maybe we should schedule a call

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Succeeded: s/* Didn't know you lived here Shawn!//
Default Present: Jennie, Rachael, JustineP, Fazio, shawn, LisaSeemanKest, kirkwood, BetsyFurler_, EA
Present: Jennie Rachael JustineP Fazio shawn LisaSeemanKest kirkwood BetsyFurler_ EA
Regrets: abi steve
Found Scribe: Jennie
Inferring ScribeNick: Jennie

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People with action items: david lisa shawn

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