<bgaraventa1979> no problem, I dialed into the same number as yesterday
<jamesn> test
<joanie> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/F2F_Spring_2018#May_2_-_Agenda
<jongund> scribe: jongund
MK: There are two things I want to talk about
... One at browser level and one at screen reader support
... What do we consider success for existing CR
... Get feedback on AT experience
... Testing in ARIA 1.2
... We can have browsers pass if they have something in the accessibility API
... If you changed aria autocomplete in your code, would that be reflected by the browser
DM: 10 new roles are proposed, and we map them all to the same APU mapping, therefore it works, but AT cannot distinguish between the roles
MK: There maybe important semantic differences, but the authoring ..., , we can say that a browser passes on a platform, even though the semantics are not available
JD: Is it implemented
DM: It does not test if the semantics are being communicated
JD: We cannot force platforms have was to map all semantics
... Passing means we are doing wwhat the platform says to do
MK: SO maybe for roles,...,
... If Apple or others say this is where it should map, it doesn't mean that it is correct
JD: Who are we to say?
MK: If the semantics are meaningless, it will effect what ATs can do
... We should have something specific to enumerated properties
JD: The other thing is we want to stick with the 2 independent features, so we can't wait for everyone to implement
MK: Test results is maybe more what I am talking about, autocomplete inline and autocomplete both are the same mapping, that should fail
DM: We need something in between pass and fail, we should have partial supported
MK: it would be useful to know about mobile
DM: Let's talk about roles, so if you map switch to checkbox, then let's call that partially supported
MK: That is a good example
DM: Fully passing means all semantics are available
... IAccessible2 and STK-SPI pass through objectAttribute is easier to do
... It is better to have more specific tests
... What about role description or state description
<joanie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Core_AAM_1.1_Testable_Statements
JD: I am going to setup a wiki page ..., but MSAA+IA2 and ATK-SPI have specific mapping
GG: We prefer object attributes
... Having them as attributes makes the information to us available sooner
DM: There are some requirements are only available through object attributes
... Is the goal, should other platforms do this in the same way, do we want browsers to do more validation
MK: Let's take role description, is only in object attributes
JD: Yes and I use it
MK: If it is only white space or not associated with a valid role, then it should not be passed in object Attributes
GG: If we don't have avalid role, it breaks our logic
... ATs do something different for checkboxes and buttons
... This seems like artificial requirement, maybe in an ideal world, but maybe not in the world we live in
MK: Are you worried that there should be some checking
<bgaraventa1979> What happens in this case?
<bgaraventa1979> <div aria-roledescription="button">Test</div>
GG: If the browser is just passing along the author information, whether or not it is valid, if not valid or poor authoring, how does it effect the AT
JD: I have filed bugs with Chrome to do sanity checks
MK: GG it matters , because the author hears button, I think it works, it can be confusing for authors to know if they did it right
... When authors screw up, what should happen, how severe did they mess up and still have something usable
GG: I don't feel strongly about user agents filtering more, in the stand point of the ATs I represent it doesn't matter
JD: We don't have to discuss it now, maybe when we have more AT vendors in the room
... I get mappings from others, we go along, but people don't notice until later and then object, how do we get this earlier
AS: Just ping us, or file a bug
MK: In the new flow we develop the test cases, we write the test cases, we should know every point in the process on implementation
... When we write the test cases, what do we consider a valid test case
... We want to look at 1.0 and 1.1 are they the tests we need
... My goal is that ARIA is as reliable as CSS
DM: There are a couple of differences, whether something is rendered is dependent on the AT
... There are non-screen readers that use some aria, but not all
... CSS defines test as pixel perfect, it is only dependent on the browser
... Here we output some protocol, but ATs do what they want with it
... What if instead of browser to expose something, that some AT does the right thing, the result is does it work in the AT
JD: What do mean about how it does it
DM: Just testing the AAM should not be enough, some AT actually has to use the information to do something different to the user
MK: I did not expect the conversation to take this direction
... I was looking at more consistent mapping of the unique information of ARIA
... I look at it as a multi-layer problem, we look at each layer, but each layer has itts own pass criteria
DM: My only observation is, if only 2 implementations, and IAccessible2 and ATK-SPI allow you to use object attributes, it is not much of a success criteria
... For example, aria-errormessage is not being used by ATs, the spec says I pass, but not useful to users and authors yet
... Web authors like MDN, since they talk about where elements works
... USe alert today, since aria-erromessage is not supported
MK: That is the business of the authoring practices
MC: DM has identified an issue we are concerned about
... The mappings are more like living standards, and W3C does not have process for living standards
... We may want to talk about this more
... We leaned on the mappings to meet exit criteria, but we could discuss more about the exit criteria
GG: We don't advance implement something
JN: The authoring practices can show how to use a feature, and those practices should work in ATs
MK: Browsers should not be dependent on the ATs to implement
... Our plan is that as we write the spec for a new feature, that the practices mirror the authoring examples
... It should feel like the aria equivalent of that in the practices
... Practices have a little of the chicken and egg problem
JN: I don't know if all issues can be in the authoring practices, we need something else for things like role parity
MK: Agenda+ for role parity testing
... We need to know what to do with these new roles
... DM you were talking about MDN, what is a good test and bad test
... Let's make sure we know what practices does now, it should include reference examples to serve as test cases
... We didn't quite make it, we have 25 patterns, and 22 have examples
... There are 59 reference examples
... 6 grid examples, 8 combobox examples
... The examples are intended to be reference implementations, so if they don't work, it is abrowser bug, AT bug or some combination of both
... My goal in having these reference examples, is having the can I use, which of them work with browser+AT combinations
... The next most important priority is developing a score for browser+AT combinations
<Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say to Matt that we need to version the examples in the APG
MK: To do this developing an objective methodology for testing
... We have a repo for the results, but nothing in it now
... First step is developing the assessments by the end of the year
DM: How many people do we have to do the testing?
MK: After we work out the methodologies, we will pick a few, we will work with working group members and vendors to do the assessments
... We can do assessment jams, teams of three people per platforms and with AT+Browser combinations
... It can't be automated, but we need a process to insure consistent support for the semantics
GG: I think it is a good idea, I have some concerns, I am concerned about reputations being hurt
MK: I share that concern
GG: We want to make sure vendors are part of the discussion
DM: Does that change our exit criteria?
MK: My goal on this topic, do we need to review our current tests, are the tests a source of the inconsistency of communicating semantics
JN: If something is not mapped at all...
MK: DD example of switch being mapped to checkbox, should be considered a partial implementation and acceptable
JN: We do not have everything we need for switch now, in terms of labeling
JD: Let me offer a different approach, how do we distinguish a switch from a checkbox, if the mappings in the core AAM are unique, the mappings
JN: If not mapped, then that is a failure
JD: If they say in UIA is not mapped, we either need to get them to implement the feature, or remove the feature
MK: We can use that result through the practices
... That's useful to authors, are there HTML that...
DM: There are ployfills to get features implemented more consistently
MK: For example, hotkeys is something that Apple said they would not implement
JD: All of the tests are what is in the core AAM
MK: I need to review the core AAM
JD: That is the mapped not mapped problem
... All things mapped to group, we call that partial implementation
... Just treat not mapped as a failure
MK: In our reports can we generate partial implementation?
JD: Yes I will figure that out
MK: I want to go back to the AAM to find these gaps, is a 1.3 issue
JD: Someone should go through the AAM to find the not mapped and redundant mappings
... I do not think the tests is our problem
JN: The issue is making sure the AAM is waht we want
JD: We need to make sure that the AAM is accurate
JN: I will go through and identify the not mapped and where there are not unique mappings
<jamesn> JD: have the browser vendors and the Api owners
<jamesn> JD: it is the owners of the mappings
<jamesn> DM: should we ask apple to make a distinction between the platform and the screen reader
<jamesn> ... small amount of AT on the Mac now - should we ask apple to have mappings which VO can ignore but others can use
<jamesn> ... android a11y apis have things which Talkback might ignore - but that is out of our hands as the user agent
<jamesn> MK: talking specifically where same owners of platform and AT
<jamesn> JD: hypothetically object attribtues
<jamesn> DM: could consider throwing it into the spec
<jamesn> JD: for the AAMs we want apple to come to us and give us their version of the object attribute
<jamesn> DM: suggest we approach apple from that standpoint.... would webkit consider exposing them - but not expose them in safari ....
DM: I am suggesting the platform ...
JD: The platform maintainer needs to provide mappings
*** break ***
<jamesn> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1005271
MK: Exhibit A issue
JN: There is some recent work
MK: By default CSS should never effect the accessibility tree, unless there is specific ARIA requirements
DM: That cant happen, there are more than 15 examples I can think of that effects the rendered content
... CSS is an active group and very active, you propose an opposite way
MK: There is no spec that says how CSS effects the accessibility tree
... If we don't know how CSS effects the accessibility tree it effects the development of practices
GG: Github uses markdown and that is not rendered ass tables but looks like tables visually
... So that is the bad thing
JN: That is a 4 year old bug, I filed it
DM: This is an example, there is a reason why it is done this way, it is just a bug
DML There use to be a lot of layout tables, browsers were trying to figure out if it a layout table or a data table
DM: I think what you are asking for is browser giving you a hint if it is a layout or data table
... Identifying a table from the CSS is complicated
... Example of calculating table ....
... If we try to do it we are duplicating other code in the browser, we want to query the other code
... It an author has choosen, to layout a table as not as a table, then we need to computer indexes
GG: It maybe a flawed table
DM: If it is not laid out as a table, then there really are not indexes
MK: Colcount and rowcount ...
DD: That is not heard, the default row and column index is the harder part, and we want to get this from the browser table layout code
x/DM/DM
DM: We want to render what is visually shown
MK: When I use INSERT+F it always says lowercase and normal text, but I can't tell the CSS that has been applied
JN: Somethings are arcroymns ...
DM: This is not reflecting what is in the screen, some authors can override with label
JN: I don't like that
... Labelled by itself
... That is an interesting using aria-labelledby
MK: Your not convincing me that we should not specify
DM: We just ask the rendering engine what is the final rendered text, there are issues with white space or remove it
... I a paragraph we do not include whitespace
MK: If you want to override list..
JN: Don't use a list in the first place
MK: Maybe there was reason to use list for selectors or ...
... By putting padding on elements, it added space and separated content form being concatenated
GG: If we go through the HTML5 spec we can review each element, that is pretty finite set of things, CSS is a lot more complex
MK: I didn't know the number of places that CSS effects the accessibility tree, the issue is not to allow CSS to effect native semantics
DM: I think rather than define where CSS does or does not apply, it is more important to say if an element is rendered, the HTML element should be definite in defining the role, unless that is an exception
... We use the aria role if it is provided
... There is not a strong mapping of the table element being represented as a table role, it is dependent on rendering
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if we´re tackling generated content in this discussion
MC: We have nver really sorted out the CSS issues of rendered content, but it is an issue for the CSS working group, and there needs to be coordination
... It is a join task force between aria, APA and CSS, but only one active member
DM: Flex box lets you render the cells in a table in reverse order, should the accessibility tree represent this
MC: That is a big issue in the task force
DM: If the tab order seems to be the main consistency issue
<MichaelC> CSS Navigation project in CSS TF
MC: It is a issue for several CSS specs
MK: It is a three way task force, but few active participants
... We have 4 high impact bugs for several years
JN: It is fixable now by the author by using role=table
JG: You put role table n a table?
JN: yes
DM: We have made some progress in fixing this
AS: It is a low priority to fix
MK: I hope we are beyond this being a low priority
AS: We are working on this bug
DM: If any part of the table is missing we can recompute
... We are looking at more cases and trying to improve our fixing the bug
... We only compute when we have to, ...
GG: Lists are another problem, we want to give users information about what is on one line
... There is a tension as something as a list and a navigation bar that users want to get past
... We want to make it easier to navigate over
DM: I don't know what the problem is
GG: JAWS thinks every new link is a new list item
DM: Check display: inline or block, whould give you some items, it does not tell you if they all fit on line, ...
GG: We are now getting into how to solve this problem, is it good to should something as a list, if it does not look like a list
DM: The layout of a list is less important that it is a list, lists are much simipler than tables
... Maybe we should just move on there and let us know the priority of fixes
... AS and I have more bugs than resources to fix, so we need priorities from the community to help guide our resources
... This includes aria features, if people are not using something it doesn't seem a priority to implement a feature
... When people use DIVs and use CSS to make them look like tables
JN: they should add the table roles
... I would like mode of trust me, I know what I am doing
GG: We are trying to implement that type of feature
... If we embark on this will you help us
<MichaelC> CSS AAM placeholder
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to mention CSS AAM
MC: The CSS task force could address many of these issues
DM: I think we could create some general guidelines, like when CSS transforms text that should be respected, since that's what is rendered graphically
MK: CSS does not make the final call, when aria-hidden="false" overrides display="none" text
... Does that go into the same guidance
DM: ARIA overrides CSS
... The current state of flex box, is that it does not effect the accessibility tree position
JN: The issue with tables is in a responsive design, when screens get small, then it does not look like a table anymore
... CSS is being overridden to change the rendering
MK: You should be able to change the ARIA
JN: You want to do it all in CSS
DM: We have implemented the consensus, we should document the rules and fix current bugs
MK: The CSS joint task force could start with a note on what browser do now
JN: The action is to get task force working again
MC: The CSS people need help form this community to help them get started on the problems
... We could start a CSS AAM, we can work with Ian to get it started
DM: What is you could set role with CSS
JN: That would be awsome, but that was rejected ...
BG: What about aria-owns ....
DM: I wonder how much push back from validators
JN: We talked about it, not sure the discussion
MC: That seems to bleed the separation of style and content even more
DM: I like AOM is proceeding is parallel, I think this is something kind of similar, a mini sister spec
MK: It sounds like what MC said is to get a person to be on the CSS task force
DM: I would be happy to help someone drive this
MK: I think Ian needs more input
MC: We need someone from ARIA to push it
DM: We need to get the AS, Edge, WebKit and I to talk about his issue
... Maybe a video conference, to hammer out a draft and some point FTF to make language
MC: Are you willing to be the driver?
DM: I want to be in the room
MK: I don't think if I have time right now
... What do we mean by driver
... Maybe Jemma
... What does being a driver mean?
JN: I can help her
JN: Will take on contacting people about the CSS task force
MK: start with application role, since it effects role-description
<mck> http://w3c.github.io/aria/#application
MK: We are being hounded in the APG to get some examples
... There are people wanting to use it, the language to discourage use is not effective
... Some of the sources of confusion
... IN ARIA 1.1 it states: is a structure with one or more interactive controls that are not defined in through other role patterns
... GG do you have any questions about the definition
GG: In 1.0 is a container for more than one control, and in 1,1 it is a widget that cannot be described by other roles
MK: continues reading spec...
JN: It dependents on your definition of element
GG: I should of fought this more, this should say that the information available to the virtual cursor is confusing and therefore let author ...
... I am fine with the 1.1 wording
*** lunch break **
<jamesn> yes david
<dmazzoni> Scribe: dmazzoni
JN: There are a number of problems in the name calculation - complexity, implementation differences, etc.
DM: note that it's definitely a lot better than it used to be, and Bryan's examples really helped
JN: whitespace is one big issue - where to insert
... biggest issue is complexity
MK: I think we could write it more simply but we couldn't simplify the algorithm itself
... but we do have practical issues
... The most common thing authors are confused by is name from author vs from content
JD: The code is very complicated - especially the recursion - and 90% of the time we never need any of that
BG: It needs to be that complicated
MK: I just learned that you don't need to put aria-label on a tree item, because the name calculation for contents doesn't include the group
... "Hidden complexity that results in simplicity"
BG: I don't see any way around that
GG: I just want all browsers to make as much wild content to work as well as possible
DM: Let's focus on the whitespace issues
Bryan created a GitHub issue
<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/16
Brian's issue just adds some comments to the algorithm, it doesn't propose a fix exactly
We're discussing the issue, trying to decide if we agree with all of the proposed fixes
or rather, the issues identified
Question: when should we ever NOT add whitespace?
Examples include spans to make something underlined, or an image for a dollar sign or decimal in a number
Should alt and title be treated differently in terms of spacing?
JD: "Be consistent with the rendered text" is a better logic
Since title is rendered separately, we should add spaces. Since alt *is* the image, we shouldn't add spaces
We need to consider whether an element is inline or block when deciding whether to add whitespace
Because the name calculation algorithm needs to handle display:none elements, you can't figure out if something is block or inline
BG has proposed test cases for block vs inline css generated text
The name calc changes should be in accname 1.2
We're going to move on to discuss aria-roledescription
<jamesn> scribe: jamesn
MK: role application - a question received... right now in the spec there is some language that implies that the application role can be applied to an element which is focusable and represents a custom widget
the definition itself says it is a grouping container...
we have actually found cases from the feedback that the implied idea is sensible... can focus something which has role application - it may or may not use aria-activedescendent.... example is a chart which is a single focusable element... only the chart is focusable... aria-roledescription and aria-activedescendent to point to things inside which would get annopunced
whatever interactivity you support for the chart widget.
first question is can we support this set of expectations for the application role.
would we have to change anything for this to work
JD: thought we had discussions to add to 1.1
MK: 2 ways to render application
MK: div aria-roledescription is slider...buttons etc... application may have aria-describedby with instructions
... a different thing from the chart where you are only interacting with 1 element....
JD: role application - orca just lets everything go to the browser and will speak based on widgety stuff.... difference between reading mode and other
pressing next item - reading mode keys. in the case of the container will come to something that says start of slide editor, buttons etc. and could read through that
different from 1 thing on the page when reading through it... wouldn't go inside it
want to make sure that can have this thing which is either a grouping element or an individual widget
would be great to have guidance for screen reader developers.... have
DMD: have a select box and the framework hides the select and shows a custom list... jaws does not move through the items
MK: not lefgit use according to the spec
... is this ok to recommend both
DM: don't think need anything from the useragent
AS: agree
DM: mostly a question for AT vendors
GG: doesn't seem controversial to me
mk: instead of a chart want to make a superbutton
role=application aria-roledescription=button
would drop into forms mode -
GG: this should not be application - should be the closest thing to what you are trying to override
... will say the name of the thing followed by the role... we make decisions based on the role.... if we are going to replace the role with roledescription.... the user needs to be able to know how to interact with ity
... could have a tutor message to say - works mostly like a abcd
MK: is incumbent upon an application author...
... not much different from the chart - but you are using application to trigger forms mode on an element
GG: afraid of role description - going to become like the Wild West...
... need the usage model to be close to another control.
DM: how is it worse than any other author error thing.... with a screen reader hat - use a description to add the other information.
MK: don't want to hear application when tab to Gantt chart
GG: can't do that as 6th time don't want so much text
<bgaraventa1979> I once had a client put role="Albert" on an element.
DM: what I am saying is that this is a custom control of some sort
MK: aria-interactive was proposed but can't remember all the nightmares
... I was a strong proponent but after trying to argue for it - I got turned against my own self
... there were a boatload of problems
DM: don't see how any complaint about aria-interactive wouldn't apply to this
MK: don't want to make a big investment in practices - can put strong guardrails in the APG about roledescription.
GG: think long and hard about role application. if choice is no additional information give some
MK: I'm a little reluctant to use role-description for things like that
JN: my 4-way slider
JD: if you call it button rather than super button
BG: we saw this when Stefan was asking... aria-roledescription is not a description of a role
MK: still a new feature... could consider a synonym in aria 1.2
JD: NVDA, Orca and I think VO support it
... back to guidance question.... if the behaviour is the same... if make a super listbox
and put some extra cool stuff in it... but if override button and make it go into focus mode then this is a specific case where guidance should be don't use roledecriptiion of button... if tell user its a foo and it doesn't act like a foo then don't do that
MK: role application is to get forms mode
GG: taking away semantic information
JN: child of role application.
... then still have button semantics
GG: I viewed application as being a container
controls in the container consume keys
MK: in 1.1 we implicitly added this concept where adding the overhead of a container
... things from the real world - Stefan wants to use role application extensively and wants to fall back on some guidance
JD: thing that concerns me that is hopefully solved by workflow - conversation now is are the things In 1.1 valid....... doing authoring guidance as part of feature development will solve this kind of thing
MK: yes
JD: this will never happen again
MK: ytes
... aria-customrolename or something
DM: reason I like roledescription is that it implies you must have a role
MK: wojuld like to spend 10 mins to ask about AOM related thing
hover/tooltip pattern
MK: tooltips that include interactive content... biggest issue is getting focus into them... Most common way is a special key - but no one can agree on the key... primary reason the tooltip pattern in the APG is not here
a gaping hole - but don't agree what should be there... does AOM provide something for us
DM: I have a philosophical objection.. I see AOM as orthogonal to aria... aria's role is to define semantics... AOM is to allow to manipulate the semantics from JS to make the DOM look like what is should
... when can't make the visual and semantic the same
dont't want the case there AOM is used cause there is no way too create DOM which would work.
MK: worried about usability and discoverability of tooltips for screen reader users.
... tooltip has interactive content.... context menu to get keyboard users maybe... possibility if we could detect the screen reader click. if click with a screen reader
DM: we give a permission dialog - for this kind of event
... I don't think this is perfect
... James Craig gave a good example - slide to unlock....
GG: 2 different actions when you happen to be in virtual mode
... when it is acceptable to be in forms mode.... 2 scenarios whether in forms mode or not
DM and GG leaving
<melanierichards> just gave status update on open MS Edge questions from yesterday about HTML-AAM: 1) no special reason for us to be exposing more info about ruby and colgroup, likely just what seemed reasonable at the time 2) open to resolution of having a specific role for fieldset, we would still map semantically as ControlType: group but provide more details thru localizedControlType (similar to what other implementations are doing)
<joanie> ttps://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Plans-regarding-role-parity
<joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/718
<joanie> https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/
<joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/718/commits/5e68010ab23f4b4f0927f15243aae8d913771a6b
<joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Plans-regarding-role-parity
<bgaraventa1979> apologies my battery is dying, will need to dial in tomorrow
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