See also: IRC log
<Rossen_> can somebody please scribe?
<scribe> scribe: MichaelC
ra: Welcome to CSS A11Y TF
thanks for making it on short notice
want to get things moving
Rossen Atanassov, Microsoft Edge, work on CSS and lots of other things, co-chair CSS WG, involved in SVG
Bogdan Brinza, Rossen´s colleague
Greg Whitworth, also Rossen´s colleague
Ted Drake, Intuit, co-facilitator of this TF, working in APA WG
John Northup, been involved in A11Y for a while
Katie Haritos-Shea, Deque, involved in W3C A11Y since 2000
Michael Cooper, W3C staff contact to ARIA & APA
Rachel Andrew, CSS WG, particularly interested in layout
Michiel_Bijl, TPG, co-editor of ARIA Authoring Practices, also part of APA
fantasai, CSS WG, edit many of the specs
Janina Sajka, chair APA, a lurker to CSS A11Y TF
<Ryladog> Reminds that I will be leaving at the top of the hour
Francois Remy, Microsoft, CSS WG
Alan Stearns, co-chair of CSS WG, also lurking
ra: initial meeting at TPAC identified areas overlap between CSS and APA that falls into this TF
fantasai has raised some issues to CSS WG
and we´ve started marking some issues with a11y tag
there was discussion of relationship between visual presentation and content structure
this is not a new topic, CSS WG has been dealing with since the advent of absolute positioning and box positioning
fantasai has put together an explanation and guidelines for that
also she and I have an action to write a best practices document for CSS authoring
that could be in remit of this TF
other topics people want group to be considering?
-> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:CSS APA CSS tracking
<Rossen_> MichaelC: has been tracking APA issues related to CSS
-> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:CSS_A11Y_TF APA request list for TF
<MichielBijl> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:CSS_APA_CSS_tracking
<janina> https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/CSS-AAM-Potential-Features
js: generated content
ra: two broad categories
Visual display and rearranging compared to document structure
positioning, transforms, animations, etc.
Structural changes introduced by CSS
generated content, which isn´t in DOM, fixups
think the APA navigation category falls into the first category above
including impact on keyboard etc. navigation
think the layout topic is a hybrid
most of the issues are around visual placement of layout boxes
don´t see as much there about generated content
mc: makes sense to me, anything missing
td: what about audio?
ra: speech?
td: there used to be aural style sheets
ra: there is CSS speech module
this is fantasai´s territory
fantasai: speech module, would like to talk about what to do with it
it´s pretty stable, just 2 open issues right now
planning to address and then republish CR
not much implementation interest
minimal feedback for years
<Rossen_> speech module - https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/511
don´t expect much interest will emerge
though the speak and speak-as properties might interest implementers more
wanted to ask this TF whether the property should be separated from the rest of the module
either by module versions, or move speak to display module where it would be more visible to authors and implementers
several issues reported to CSSWG asking for the feature, even though it exists
td: was trying to work on it a while ago
ra: yeah, lots of interest
ra: propose we do the work in GitHub
<MichielBijl> +1
CSS work does that
was a challenge to transition to that, but has proven successful and adaptive
have one repo available
we should decide if we want to use that, or choose a different one
is everyone ok with that?
mb, td: +1
<rachelandrew> +1
ra: big and small issues can be addressed there
can cross-tag and stuff
there is mailing list
though probably mainly for administrative stuff
don´t want to impose standing teleconferences
but if need arises, we could schedule one-offs
also probably spend some chunks of time at TPAC in FtF discussion
though probably not separate dedicated FtF meeting
any other thoughts?
td: sounds good
ra: for github, currently have https://github.com/w3c/css-aam
is that ok, or do we want a new css-a11y?
js: suggest keep AAM specific for AAPI mappings
<Rossen_> how about a new repo called CAT
mc: could create new repo for the primary issue discussion, and initial drafts of deliverables
keep CSS-AAM for that specific deliverable
could spin off other repos as needed
mb: better to split now than later if we´re gonna manage issues
RESOLUTION: create css-a11y repo as primary repo for this TF
<Rossen_> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/511
ra: proposal is to split the speech module into two, one which could go to Rec and get implemented soon, but only have the speak property
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say a11y interested in speech but had kinda given up and to talk about issue vs development
mc: think a11y would be happy to see speech revived
think better to split the module than merge into display, but defer to CSS WG judgement
elika: want to sort that, and also ask whether speak-as should go along with it?
ra: given multiple years of lack of implementer interest, cautious about bogging down display module with it
so I vote for split as well
mc: what does speak-as do?
<fantasai> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-speech/#speaking-props-speak-as
fantasai: specify whether word should be spelled or pronounced
<fantasai> speak-as: normal | spell-out || digits || [ literal-punctuation | no-punctuation ]
mb: relationship to display: none?
<fantasai> speak: auto | never | always
fantasai: speak property allows auto, never, always
auto keys off of display / visibility
bb: could imagine this applies to name and description
and @@
why would you want to tie to display forcefully outside of those use cases?
fantasai: auto defines ¨normal¨ behaviour, if that defined behavoiur doesn´t seem intuitive we should refine the spec
use case of decorative element using text, might not want it spelled out
or asterisk placeholders
or supplemental navigation elements
<MichielBijl> So, el { speak: always; display: hidden; } is equal to el { position: absolute; right: 100%; clip: …; blah }? That’s really cool!
mc: kinda think speak-as more directly helpful to AT users
but should check with AT users more
makes sense to me to bring both those properties forward if feasible
but not sure one should die on the sword of the other
js: would like to canvas other AT users and developers
see good value in speak-as
bb: it used to be AT would get content out of the browser
nowadays get it more from a11y layer
means the property is less visible to them
so can´t build experience around it
and don´t think should encourage in browser
ra: subtree doesn´t always have rich markup
assumptions are built in around use of display:none
fantasai: there is a use case, that we should solve
there is a property
not sure how to handle, but multiple requests
<Zakim> MichielBijl, you wanted to say speak-as: literal-punctuation; would be great for specs / pre | code elements.
mb: see good value for literal pronunciation
use case, contractions make content more readable but AT over-expose the punctuation
so like speak-as
mc: may want to explore pushing the a11y layer before determining something shouldn´t be implemented
ra: not not implementable, but expect more UA enforcing of content integrity
do have concern about forcing element that´s not normally accessible to be made available introduces complexitiies
@@ linking to name description computation
think existing ARIA features cover the use cases
<fantasai> You should read https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/560 which is asking for this feature.
js: more than just AT are consumers
e.g., Alexa
say w-i-n-d pronounces differently depending on whether it´s action on rope or movement of air
fantasai: that´s a semantic issue out of scope for CSS
should handle at markup level
js: so speak-as is more restricted?
fantasai: yeah, doesn´t interpret, just says how to render
it´s possible the speak-as aspect [s/sh]ould be handled in markup
mb: +1 one markup for JS use case
ra: so good discussion
need to close the telecon though
<Rossen_> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues
will set up css-a11y github repo
suggest participants follow CSSWG issues
in particular look for ones tagged for a11y
you can comment, cross-link with issues in css-a11y repo, etc.
thanks everyone for participating in this call and the TF
js: will it help for APA to do a prioritization round?
ra: would like to see all the issues in the new github repo
they will self-prioritize organically
so talk to you on github, we´ll do a call if needed!
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.148 of Date: 2016/10/11 12:55:14 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/lots of/several/ Succeeded: s/issues/issues reported to CSSWG/ Succeeded: s/one/one-offs/ Succeeded: s/organizally/organically/ Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Found Scribe: MichaelC Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC Present: MichaelC Michiel_Bijl Rachel_Andrew rachelandrew Rossen astearns gregwhitworth Katie_Haritos-Shea BogdanBrinza John_Northup Alan_Stearns Janina fantasai Regrets: Dave_Kramer Joanmarie_Diggs Liam_Quinn Tzviya_Siegman Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-a11y/2017Jan/0004.html Got date from IRC log name: 31 Jan 2017 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-css-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]