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17:28:19 <MichaelC> meeting: CSS A11Y TF Inaugural Call
17:28:53 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
17:29:05 <MichaelC> chair: Rossen
17:29:22 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC, Michiel_Bijl, Rachel_Andrew
17:30:35 <rachelandrew> present+
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17:30:44 <tdrake> present + tdrake
17:31:32 <MichaelC> present+ Rossen
17:31:42 <astearns> present+
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17:32:03 <gregwhitworth> present+
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17:32:47 <MichielBijl> regrets+ Tzviya_Siegman
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17:33:06 <MichaelC> regrets+ Dave_Kramer, Liam_Quinn, Francois_Remy, Joanmarie_Diggs
17:33:19 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:33:27 <Rossen_> Present+ Rossen
17:33:39 <BogdanBrinza> present+ BogdanBrinza
17:33:41 <MichaelC> present+ John_Northup
17:33:46 <MichaelC> present+ Alan_Stearns
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17:34:25 <MichaelC> present+ Janina
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17:34:31 <MichaelC> present+ fantasai
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17:34:41 <janina> present+
17:35:29 <MichaelC> present+ Francois_Remy
17:35:34 <MichaelC> regrets- Francois_Remy
17:35:47 <Rossen_> can somebody please scribe?
17:36:02 <janina> zakim, who's here?
17:36:02 <Zakim> Present: MichaelC, Michiel_Bijl, Rachel_Andrew, rachelandrew, Rossen, astearns, gregwhitworth, Katie_Haritos-Shea, BogdanBrinza, John_Northup, Alan_Stearns, Janina, fantasai,
17:36:06 <Zakim> ... Francois_Remy
17:36:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see janina, fremy, fantasai, Ryladog, BogdanBrinza, Rossen_, gregwhitworth, tdrake, Zakim, RRSAgent, rachelandrew, astearns, MichaelC, liam, MichielBijl
17:36:21 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
17:37:01 <MichaelC> topic: introductions
17:37:10 <MichaelC> ra: Welcome to CSS A11Y TF
17:37:16 <MichaelC> thanks for making it on short notice
17:37:22 <MichaelC> want to get things moving
17:38:03 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-a11y/2017Jan/0004.html
17:38:10 <MichaelC> topic: Round of introductions
17:38:34 <MichaelC> Rossen Atanassov, Microsoft Edge, work on CSS and lots of other things, co-chair CSS WG, involved in SVG
17:38:42 <MichaelC> Bogdan Brinza, Rossen´s colleague
17:39:03 <MichaelC> Greg Whitworth, also Rossen´s colleague
17:39:23 <MichaelC> Ted Drake, Intuit, co-facilitator of this TF, working in APA WG
17:39:41 <MichaelC> John Northup, been involved in A11Y for a while
17:40:03 <MichaelC> Katie Haritos-Shea, Deque, involved in W3C A11Y since 2000
17:40:45 <MichaelC> Michael Cooper, W3C staff contact to ARIA & APA
17:40:57 <MichaelC> Rachel Andrew, CSS WG, particularly interested in layout
17:41:17 <MichaelC> Michiel_Bijl, TPG, co-editor of ARIA Authoring Practices, also part of APA
17:41:24 <MichaelC> fantasai, CSS WG, edit many of the specs
17:41:44 <MichaelC> Janina Sajka, chair APA, a lurker to CSS A11Y TF
17:42:04 <Ryladog> Reminds that I will be leaving at the top of the hour
17:42:11 <MichaelC> Francois Remy, Microsoft, CSS WG
17:42:23 <MichaelC> Alan Stearns, co-chair of CSS WG, also lurking
17:43:02 <MichaelC> topic: Scope of our work
17:43:29 <MichaelC> ra: initial meeting at TPAC identified areas overlap between CSS and APA that falls into this TF
17:44:06 <MichaelC> fantasai has raised some issues to CSS WG
17:44:19 <MichaelC> and we´ve started marking some issues with a11y tag
17:44:42 <MichaelC> there was discussion of relationship between visual presentation and content structure
17:45:18 <MichaelC> this is not a new topic, CSS WG has been dealing with since the advent of absolute positioning and box positioning
17:45:47 <MichaelC> fantasai has put together an explanation and guidelines for that
17:45:57 <MichaelC> also she and I have an action to write a best practices document for CSS authoring
17:46:06 <MichaelC> that could be in remit of this TF
17:46:38 <MichaelC> other topics people want group to be considering?
17:47:19 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:CSS APA CSS tracking
17:47:36 <Rossen_> MichaelC: has been tracking APA issues related to CSS
17:47:36 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:CSS_A11Y_TF APA request list for TF
17:47:53 <MichielBijl> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:CSS_APA_CSS_tracking
17:48:30 <janina> https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/CSS-AAM-Potential-Features
17:49:20 <MichaelC> js: generated content
17:49:45 <MichaelC> ra: two broad categories
17:49:53 <MichaelC> Visual display and rearranging compared to document structure
17:50:03 <MichaelC> positioning, transforms, animations, etc.
17:50:13 <MichaelC> Structural changes introduced by CSS
17:50:35 <MichaelC> generated content, which isn´t in DOM, fixups
17:50:56 <MichaelC> think the APA navigation category falls into the first category above
17:51:17 <MichaelC> including impact on keyboard etc. navigation
17:51:31 <MichaelC> think the layout topic is a hybrid
17:51:42 <MichaelC> most of the issues are around visual placement of layout boxes
17:51:52 <MichaelC> don´t see as much there about generated content
17:52:53 <MichaelC> mc: makes sense to me, anything missing
17:53:01 <MichaelC> td: what about audio?
17:53:10 <MichaelC> ra: speech?
17:53:23 <MichaelC> td: there used to be aural style sheets
17:53:27 <MichaelC> ra: there is CSS speech module
17:53:36 <MichaelC> this is fantasai´s territory
17:54:19 <MichaelC> fantasai: speech module, would like to talk about what to do with it
17:54:22 <MichaelC> it´s pretty stable, just 2 open issues right now
17:54:30 <MichaelC> planning to address and then republish CR
17:54:36 <MichaelC> not much implementation interest
17:54:46 <MichaelC> minimal feedback for years
17:54:51 <Rossen_> speech module - https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/511
17:54:55 <MichaelC> don´t expect much interest will emerge
17:55:05 <MichaelC> though the speak and speak-as properties might interest implementers more
17:55:24 <MichaelC> wanted to ask this TF whether the property should be separated from the rest of the module
17:55:50 <MichaelC> either by module versions, or move speak to display module where it would be more visible to authors and implementers
17:55:59 <MichaelC> lots of issues asking for the feature, even though it exists
17:56:19 <fantasai> s/lots of/several/
17:56:27 <fantasai> s/issues/issues reported to CSSWG/
17:56:31 <MichaelC> td: was trying to work on it a while ago
17:56:44 <MichaelC> ra: yeah, lots of interest
17:57:00 <MichaelC> q+ to say a11y interested in speech but had kinda given up
17:57:20 <MichaelC> topic: How and where will we work
17:57:27 <MichaelC> ra: propose we do the work in GitHub
17:57:29 <MichielBijl> +1
17:57:30 <MichaelC> CSS work does that
17:57:44 <MichaelC> was a challenge to transition to that, but has proven successful and adaptive
17:57:49 <MichaelC> have one repo available
17:58:09 <MichaelC> we should decide if we want to use that, or choose a different one
17:58:20 <MichaelC> is everyone ok with that?
17:58:23 <MichaelC> mb, td: +1
17:58:29 <rachelandrew> +1
17:58:44 <MichaelC> ra: big and small issues can be addressed there
17:58:47 <MichaelC> can cross-tag and stuff
17:59:00 <MichaelC> there is mailing list
17:59:08 <MichaelC> though probably mainly for administrative stuff
17:59:20 <MichaelC> don´t want to impose standing teleconferences
17:59:45 <MichaelC> but if need arises, we could schedule one
17:59:56 <MichaelC> s/one/one-offs/
18:00:11 <MichaelC> also probably spend some chunks of time at TPAC in FtF discussion
18:00:23 <MichaelC> though probably not separate dedicated FtF meeting
18:00:35 <MichaelC> any other thoughts?
18:00:45 <MichaelC> td: sounds good
18:01:38 <MichaelC> ra: for github, currently have https://github.com/w3c/css-aam
18:01:47 <MichaelC> is that ok, or do we want a new css-a11y?
18:02:06 <MichaelC> q+ to talk about issue vs development
18:02:47 <MichaelC> js: suggest keep AAM specific for AAPI mappings
18:02:49 <Rossen_> how about a new repo called CAT
18:04:07 <MichaelC> mc: could create new repo for the primary issue discussion, and initial drafts of deliverables
18:04:20 <MichaelC> keep CSS-AAM for that specific deliverable
18:05:00 <MichaelC> could spin off other repos as needed
18:05:11 <MichaelC> mb: better to split now than later if we´re gonna manage issues
18:05:30 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: create css-a11y repo as primary repo for this TF
18:06:12 <Rossen_> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/511
18:06:12 <MichaelC> topic: speak property
18:07:08 <MichaelC> ra: proposal is to split the speech module into two, one which could go to Rec and get implemented soon, but only have the speak property
18:07:22 <Rossen_> q?
18:07:26 <Rossen_> ack q
18:07:32 <Rossen_> ack MichaelC
18:07:32 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say a11y interested in speech but had kinda given up and to talk about issue vs development
18:08:26 <MichaelC> mc: think a11y would be happy to see speech revived
18:08:40 <MichaelC> think better to split the module than merge into display, but defer to CSS WG judgement
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18:09:00 <MichaelC> elika: want to sort that, and also ask whether speak-as should go along with it?
18:09:06 <MichaelC> q+
18:09:28 <MichaelC> ra: given multiple years of lack of implementer interest, cautious about bogging down display module with it
18:09:37 <MichaelC> so I vote for split as well
18:10:03 <Rossen_> ack MichaelC
18:10:20 <MichaelC> mc: what does speak-as do?
18:10:47 <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-speech/#speaking-props-speak-as
18:10:54 <MichaelC> fantasai: specify whether word should be spelled or pronounced
18:10:56 <fantasai> speak-as: normal | spell-out || digits || [ literal-punctuation | no-punctuation ]
18:11:17 <MichaelC> mb: relationship to display: none?
18:11:36 <fantasai> speak: auto | never | always
18:11:38 <MichaelC> fantasai: speak property allows auto, never, always
18:11:50 <MichaelC> auto keys off of display / visibility
18:12:23 <Rossen_> q?
18:12:49 <MichaelC> bb: could imagine this applies to name and description
18:13:20 <MichaelC> and @@
18:13:30 <MichaelC> why would you want to tie to display forcefully outside of those use cases?
18:13:51 <MichaelC> fantasai: auto defines ¨normal¨ behaviour, if that defined behavoiur doesn´t seem intuitive we should refine the spec
18:14:06 <MichaelC> use case of decorative element using text, might not want it spelled out
18:14:38 <MichaelC> or asterisk placeholders
18:15:10 <MichaelC> or supplemental navigation elements
18:16:34 <MichielBijl> So, el { speak: always; display: hidden; } is equal to el { position: absolute; right: 100%; clip: …; blah }? That’s really cool!
18:16:41 <Rossen_> q+
18:17:09 <MichaelC> mc: kinda think speak-as more directly helpful to AT users
18:17:18 <MichaelC> but should check with AT users more
18:17:31 <MichaelC> makes sense to me to bring both those properties forward if feasible
18:17:42 <MichaelC> but not sure one should die on the sword of the other
18:17:52 <MichaelC> js: would like to canvas other AT users and developers
18:17:58 <MichaelC> see good value in speak-as
18:18:26 <MichaelC> ack r
18:18:48 <MichielBijl> q+ to say speak-as: literal-punctuation; would be great for specs / pre | code elements.
18:18:52 <MichaelC> bb: it used to be AT would get content out of the browser
18:19:08 <MichaelC> nowadays get it more from a11y layer
18:19:19 <MichaelC> means the property is less visible to them
18:19:45 <MichaelC> so can´t build experience around it
18:19:45 <MichaelC> and don´t think should encourage in browser
18:20:26 <MichaelC> ra: subtree doesn´t always have rich markup
18:20:28 <MichaelC> q+
18:20:41 <MichaelC> assumptions are built in around use of display:none
18:20:54 <MichaelC> fantasai: there is a use case, that we should solve
18:21:01 <MichaelC> there is a property
18:21:04 <Rossen_> q+
18:21:07 <MichaelC> not sure how to handle, but multiple requests
18:21:20 <MichaelC> ack michiel
18:21:20 <Zakim> MichielBijl, you wanted to say speak-as: literal-punctuation; would be great for specs / pre | code elements.
18:21:56 <MichaelC> mb: see good value for literal pronunciation
18:22:27 <MichaelC> use case, contractions make content more readable but AT over-expose the punctuation
18:22:31 <MichaelC> so like speak-as
18:22:32 <janina> q+ Another example: "Wind" is one thing when you talk about a spring, and another when it's the weather
18:22:50 <Rossen_> q?
18:22:56 <Rossen_> ack MichaelC
18:23:33 <MichaelC> mc: may want to explore pushing the a11y layer before determining something shouldn´t be implemented
18:23:39 <janina> q+
18:23:49 <MichaelC> ra: not not implementable, but expect more UA enforcing of content integrity
18:23:50 <Rossen_> ack Rossen_
18:24:24 <MichaelC> do have concern about forcing element that´s not normally accessible to be made available introduces complexitiies
18:24:40 <MichaelC> @@ linking to name description computation
18:25:03 <MichaelC> think existing ARIA features cover the use cases
18:25:41 <fantasai> You should read https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/560 which is asking for this feature.
18:25:47 <MichaelC> js: more than just AT are consumers
18:25:50 <MichaelC> e.g., Alexa
18:26:29 <MichaelC> say w-i-n-d pronounces differently depending on whether it´s action on rope or movement of air
18:26:47 <Rossen_> q?
18:26:51 <Rossen_> ack janina
18:26:57 <MichaelC> fantasai: that´s a semantic issue out of scope for CSS
18:27:21 <MichaelC> should handle at markup level
18:27:29 <MichaelC> js: so speak-as is more restricted?
18:27:44 <MichaelC> fantasai: yeah, doesn´t interpret, just says how to render
18:28:20 <MichaelC> it´s possible the speak-as aspect [s/sh]ould be handled in markup
18:28:45 <MichaelC> mb: +1 one markup for JS use case
18:29:29 <MichaelC> ra: so good discussion
18:29:34 <MichaelC> need to close the telecon though
18:29:41 <MichaelC> topic: Next steps
18:29:45 <Rossen_> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues
18:29:47 <MichaelC> will set up css-a11y github repo
18:30:02 <MichaelC> suggest participants follow CSSWG issues
18:30:13 <MichaelC> in particular look for ones tagged for a11y
18:30:25 <janina> q+ to ask whether CSS TF would like APA to prioritize our issues?
18:30:33 <MichaelC> you can comment, cross-link with issues in css-a11y repo, etc.
18:31:04 <MichaelC> thanks everyone for participating in this call and the TF
18:31:17 <MichaelC> js: will it help for APA to do a prioritization round?
18:31:36 <MichaelC> ra: would like to see all the issues in the new github repo
18:31:43 <MichaelC> they will self-prioritize organizally
18:31:54 <MichaelC> s/organizally/organically/
18:32:08 <MichaelC> so talk to you on github, we´ll do a call if needed!
18:32:29 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
18:32:32 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/31-css-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
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18:34:59 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
18:34:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been MichaelC, Michiel_Bijl, Rachel_Andrew, rachelandrew, Rossen, astearns, gregwhitworth, Katie_Haritos-Shea, BogdanBrinza,
18:34:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #css-a11y
18:35:01 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
18:35:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items