See also: IRC log
<rhiaro> I can hear but break-up-y. Won't be able to scribe today
<rhiaro> Probably my wifi
<eprodrom> scribe?
I haven't in a while
<scribe> scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
<cwebber2> I heard "I'm going to ____"
<akuckartz> ben_thatmustbeme++
<Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 176 karma (57 in this channel)
<eprodrom> PROPOSAL: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-10-18-minutes as minutes for 2016 Oct 18 meeting
<rhiaro> +1
<akuckartz> +0 (was not present)
eprodrom: if you have not already reviewed those, please review them
<cwebber2> +1
<sandro> +1
<wilkie> ben_thatmustbeme: last week was a killer too but you haven't lived until you've scribed a F2F tho
+1
<wilkie> +1
<eprodrom> +1
RESOLUTION: approve https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-10-18-minutes as minutes for 2016 Oct 18 meeting
<wilkie> ben_thatmustbeme: then you've lived a good and fulfilling life! :)
<eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-11-17
<Loqi> Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting at MIT (F2F8)
eprodrom: we do have our F2F
coming up in november, 3 weeks away, if you have not yet signed
up please do so, so we can plan logistics
... link in IRC
... it will likely be one of our last F2F meetings, if not our
last and we have a lot of talk about there
... sando, do we have anything else to discuss there?
sandro: not unless anyone has questions
eprodrom: we had a lot of
discussion of AS2 going to CR last week
... we have a few bugs to fix, and some other items
<cwebber2> eprodrom, I should be able to get implementation reports in, though I might need to be pinged
eprodrom: i did not have much
time to work on it this week but i will be pushing it this
week
... mostly its editorial issues, a few normative issues that we
resolved that i just need to close, and we need implementation
reports
... i would really like to have our first implmentation of
pump.io by F2F
... i'll also be doing an implementation report for the
validator and hopefully james will have one too
... there was a question about twitter using AS2. i reached out
last week, but I am still waiting for a response back
... are there any questions for me or james on AS2?
<rhiaro> I just want to raise for myself mostly that a human readable version of the AS2 namespace is still on my TODO list
eprodrom: if not i'm good moving along for now
<rhiaro> (and adding the extensions section with AP terms, etc)
eprodrom: <<repeats rhiaro comments from chat>>
<cwebber2> shoot
<cwebber2> my phone disconnected
eprodrom: lets hold off on that while cwebber2 reconnects
aaronpk: I did apparently volunteer last week to create the test suite, so far i have a plan of the list of tests to write but i plan to make progress on that this week.
<cwebber2> reconnected
aaronpk: over the last 24 hours
or so there have been a whole bunch of issues opened on
pubsub
... i would love to get more eyes on them
<sandro> https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues
aaronpk: i tackled half of them
already this morning to try and get some resolved if
possible
... link in IRC
eprodrom: any in here you find needs discussion today? or are we not ready for that yet?
<Loqi> [@jirikuncar] Welcome PubSub protocol standard on W3C 🎉 https://www.w3.org/TR/pubsub/ (http://twtr.io/1JVB3kx39eC)
aaronpk: there were some suggestions to rename it... again
sandro: lets leave that to the thread
<tantek> oh dear really?!?
aaronpk: i think most of these are fine to allow to continue to talk on the threads
<wilkie> if that's the biggest issue that doesn't seem so bad haha
<Loqi> awesome
<aaronpk> new name issue: https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues/10
eprodrom: i really hope we don't persue that much further, the name took enough effort
<tantek> FWIW I can live with "PubSub" and have yet to hear anything even remotely more palatable
eprodrom: on the test suite, do you have an intention to do an online test server similar to the web webmention works?
aaronpk: yes, similar to webmention and micropub, a tool that acts as the other end for you
and will track what features are available and build the implementation report from that
eprodrom: have you had a chance to look, are there normative issues here?
aaronpk: there are some around
timing and retrying
... some are editorial, some are tightening up language
... like defining that a time in seconds must be positive
integers, things like that
eprodrom: so some are normative,
okay
... anything else on this agenda topic?
sandro: can i ask one big
question?
... when we first talked about it, i raised the issue of
payload type. have we thought more about what we are doing
there?
<aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues/24
sandro: i haven't seen any discussion, but maybe it happened...
aaronpk: no, we haven't. There is
one issue around diffing versions. I don't think its going to
be possible to actually specify that around that
... i think this is going to be around notifiying and not
around the actual content delivery
sandro: so there is going to need to be another spec?
aaronpk: i think there will need to be a profile of the spec, similar to oauth2
sandro: so for me to use this to syndicate blog posts, this isn't going to tell me how to do it?
<aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/TR/pubsub/#publishing
<Loqi> [Julien Genestoux] PubSub
aaronpk: you will need this spec and the documentation from the hub you are using
sandro: that seems sub-optimal
<tantek> does anyone actually use the payload in practice?
aaronpk: i agree, also the publishing section is empty, which is a seperate issue, but similar
sandro: that leaves me confused as to what the use of this spec is
aaronpk: it provides interop on some aspects
tantek: the flip side is that we have real world experience where it is working
sandro: but thats not via this spec
tantek: i don't think you are asking the right question
sandro: i think there is clearly something that works, but what works is not being specified by this spec
tantek: i'm hoping that we can fill that in based on experience
aaronpk: one of the issues there
is that the spec tries to be content type neutral
... to do that, it can't specify that with diffing types
... the most interoperable way to do that, is to use XML feeds,
specifically RSS and ATOM
... one way is to put those in to the spec
... but then its not really content type neutral
sandro: one way is to put what you just said in to the spec and then give people links to where they can handle those
tantek: i feel a little
uncomfortable with that, i feel like some of it will have to be
in the spec
... i think its a reasonable approach to document "heres the
content-types that we have found to work as of today" and then
give people some idea of how to make their own types work
... i guess from an implementor perspective, i'd rather
document what works now, rather than dance around it for
now
... as for right now i believe we have interop with RSS, ATOM,
and h-feed
aaronpk: yes
tantek: and then it becomes a list for people to get into the party with
sandro: i guess it becomes a
question of where we put that? normative, as another
note?
... i'm guessing that h-feed is maintained in the same way as
mf2?
tantek: yes, the individual format specs (RSS, Atom, h-feed) already document how to parse the formats, what we can do is specify what to do with that parse result, which tends to be very similar in each of those cases at least
<tantek> no I said the format specs document the parsing of the formats
sandro: I'm trying to picture how that text is, for RSS i feel that would be a paragraph
<aaronpk> https://documentation.superfeedr.com/subscribers.html
<Loqi> Subscribers
tantek, can you document that better
you spoke fast
aaronpk: let me link to the
documentation for superfeedr, (in irc), let me say that content
type is also only important for fat-pings
... with thin pings there is no content in the notification,
then its outside of the spec for the subscriber to actually
fetch the original URL, and then its all outside of this
mechanism
eprodrom: it sounds like we could
get a lot of use out of getting like 4 content types in there
and that would get the 80/20
... it sounds like sandro needs to make an issue in the issue
tracker
tantek: one of the nice effects
of this is that we can treat each of these as somewhat
orthoganally, and when we find one we can make tests based on
that content type
... and we can just put any others at-risk
... i'll just be direct, i don't think anyone is publishing as2
with pubsub, we could put it at-risk and if we need to get
through CR and we don't see any implmentations, we can also
spin it off in to a note and then that note can be maintained
by the community group or whatever
eprodrom: its been a while, but its things like "do you send the entry or the feed with one item in it" literally that can be solved with one sentence, and that would help a lot with interop
tantek: the only part i had on that was the different was the diffing vs the fat-ping
<eprodrom> No more pings!
tantek: the thin-ping is to send
the URL only and then the diffing is seperate, if we use the
fat-ping method, we have to specify what goes in to that
body
... we would have to consider those two approaches
independently as well
eprodrom: anything more to discuss on pubsub?
tantek: whats the next step?
eprodrom: sounds like the next
step is to address the issue queue, i count around 17, with
considerable discussion
... sounds like we'll be having some next steps
<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/
<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/162
cwebber2: hello, last week we talked about bringing AP to CR this week. We had some really involved issues that we ended up having to go through. They are all now marked as 'waiting for commentor', the 4 that were filed by bengo. I don't know what the process is on this, i have answered them with i htink an acceptable response, with the exceptions of 162. I am not quite sure what was being asked
<tantek> hmm, we should get bengo here to discuss
cwebber2: we are waiting on those
4 issues, hopefully bengo will respond within the next
week
... there are some other issues, but they seem like they will
be easier
... there are 2 issues i feel should be discussed in the
group
<tantek> !tell bengo can you join us in the telcon 2016-11-01? we need your help resolving some ActivityPub issues interactively so we can get move it along toward PR!
<Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
eprodrom: so you have 2 issues
that you need to be addressed by the group, lets try that
now
... lets get those 2 first we'll then go on to SWP and we'll
come back and see what time we have for additional ones
<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/155
cwebber2: 155 is potentially
thorny. Someone has asked to have a history to show old
revisions of an item
... i don't think that would be trivial method unless we do it
in a history entry
... i feel its a bit late to add to AP core
... i think it makes sense as an extension
eprodrom: i think it makes more
sense to have a collection of activities like lifecycle, here
is its creation, its edits, comments, here's its delete
... so using the activities to show the history
... that said, if you wanted to have a history property, then
it would make sense that way
<tantek> has anyone implemented this a all?
cwebber2: i would be okay to add
that with marking it at-risk, but i feel like its likely not
something thought through well enough
... do you think we should put it as "for later version" and
leave it as an extension for now
eprodrom: i htink that makes sense
<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note stage of an idea / proposal vs stage of a spec
<tantek> yes, for "later version" would be appropriate
cwebber2: is it okay to mark it as later version and close it or leave it open
eprodrom: i would leave it open
tantek: the general concern here
is that activity pub is basically like trying to be in CR, even
though we aren't. That means we really don't get to add new
features unless its a major blocker for implementation
... once we recognize that, what level of maturity is it? is it
an idea? prototyped? already working for people? technically we
can add anything to the spec thats within the scope of the
charter, but generally we have been trying to push for people
to incubate them before putting them in a working draft
... from my understanding no one has even prototyped this
cwebber2: thats my understanding
too
... great, i will respond to the issue as such
tantek: and encourage them and even possibly help with incubation
cwebber2: i'm reasonably optimistic that we will be able to go to CR next week
<akuckartz> cwebber2++
<Loqi> cwebber2 has 76 karma
<eprodrom> rhiaro: ?
<tantek> cwebber2++ thanks for your diligence with the flood of ActivityPub issues. My goodness.
<Loqi> cwebber2 has 77 karma
rhiaro: there was a request for me to update SWP with new doc status, we haven't had the transition calls for LDN or PubSub so i didn't know if we wanted to wait
tantek: i think its worth it for
FPWD of PubSub
... we don't actually have the transition called scheduled yet
do we?
sandro: we're working on it
... we may not need it
tantek: there are two things we need on that call
rhiaro: we are aiming to get them published next tuesday one way or another
eprodrom: are we ready to go to another WD with an update of FPWD of pubsub?
<cwebber2> tantek, thank you :)
eprodrom: if we do a resolution, you would be able to publish it
<rhiaro> http://w3c-social.github.io/social-web-protocols/#changes-since-2016-10-12
eprodrom: is there any reason not to do that, is there anything else we want in there?
<rhiaro> (that fragment is broken, willf ix)
<eprodrom> PROPOSED: publish a new working draft of Social Web Protocols
<cwebber2> +1
+1
<rhiaro> +1
<eprodrom> +1
eprodrom: amy is that ok?
<tantek> +1
<wilkie> +1
<rhiaro> There's a bunch of stuff that needs to go in there still, but if we're not waiting for other document status updates, there's no need to wati for that
<akuckartz> +1
RESOLUTION: publish a new working draft of Social Web Protocols
<tantek> I like this rhythm of updating our overview document when we update the individual documents.
eprodrom: you have the resolution you need
<tantek> I think it helps the outside confidence in our overview document, which is pretty important for understanding our work as a whole.
eprodrom: we are near the end of our agenda, i believe we have webmention next
<aaronpk> sandro, let me know if this captures it for you https://github.com/w3c/pubsub/issues/27
<aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/webmention/issues/67
aaronpk: the only thing i wanted
to talk about today, we that in webmention we need to change a
reference to the WHATWG spec instead
... its a more up to date spec of what a URL is, especially for
hte purposes of webmention
... its technically a normative change, but it won't effect any
implmeentations
tantek: its my understanding that this is the kind of change we can make between CR and PR
sandro: its a change in reference between what and what?
aaronpk: from RFC?? and the WHATWG URL spec?
sandro: whats the difference
between them? i'd have to run it by ralph
... if you want to just send me a draft and CC chairs
tantek: i've seen the webapp
grounps switch as well, so i think this makes sense, we're not
the first group or spec doing this
... we can provide citations for that
sandro: and there is no intended difference?
<cwebber2> lol
tantek: it should not effect implmentations, but its a more up to date reference
eprodrom: is there enough of a
difference here that its worth this effort?
... can we just gloss over this and move on?
tantek: i think its a due
dilligence kind of detail, we're getting close to PR and this
is crossing your T's and dotting your I's
... the intent was to cite what a URL was, not to specifically
reference an RFC
... i think thats a good detail to fix before we go to PR
... its good that we're only talking about this kind of detail
at this point
eprodrom: it makes sense to me, i
just don't want to spend a lot of cycles on this unless its a
worthwhile change, and it sounds like this is something
everyone will be doing anyway
... do we have other discussions on webmention?
tantek: do we want a group
resolution on that issue pending ralphs approval?
... we might as well get it out of the way so we don't have to
talk about it again
<eprodrom> PROPOSED: adopt https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ as URL standard reference for Webmention
<tantek> +1
<eprodrom> +1
<cwebber2> +0 I'm not informed enough on the issue to really know, but seems fine by me
eprodrom: aaronpk does that make sense to you?
aaronpk: yes
+1
<aaronpk> +1
<bengo> +0
<Loqi> bengo: tantek left you a message 22 minutes ago: can you join us in the telcon 2016-11-01? we need your help resolving some ActivityPub issues interactively so we can get move it along toward PR!
<akuckartz> +0
<wilkie> +0
<sandro> +1 assuming we can do it
<bengo> Time zone fail, I showed up an hour late
eprodrom: any objections?
<cwebber2> bengo, basically we wanted feedback on the things you filed in ActivityPub
RESOLUTION: adopt https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ as URL standard reference for Webmention
<cwebber2> bengo, they are all now Waiting for Commenter :)
<bengo> cwebber2 ya we can just work via github
eprodrom: we are now at 5 minutes
past and we are now at the end of the agenda
... i do want to come back to AP, since we were waiting for
bengo. would it be woth bringing that up now?
cwebber2: bengo said we can work on github as long as he can help get quick turn-around to get these done by next week
bengo: i will do it right now
<tantek> great!
eprodrom: okay, anything else we
need to discuss then?
... thanks for coming everyone
<wilkie> thanks
<eprodrom> Thanks everyone
<tantek> ben_thatmustbeme++ for minuting
<Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 177 karma (58 in this channel)
<eprodrom> trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.148 of Date: 2016/10/11 12:55:14 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/i think we could docuemnt the parsing of it/the individual format specs (RSS, Atom, h-feed) already document how to parse the formats, what we can do is specify what to do with that parse result, which tends to be very similar in each of those cases/ Found ScribeNick: ben_thatmustbeme Inferring Scribes: ben_thatmustbeme Default Present: eprodrom, aaronpk, wilkie, akuckartz, ben_thatmustbeme, rhiaro, sandro, cwebber, tantek, bengo WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: eprodrom, aaronpk, wilkie, akuckartz, ben_thatmustbeme, rhiaro, sandro, cwebber2, tantek) Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Present+ eprodrom, aaronpk, wilkie, akuckartz, ben_thatmustbeme, rhiaro, sandro, cwebber, tantek Present: eprodrom aaronpk wilkie akuckartz ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro sandro cwebber tantek bengo WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 25 Oct 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-social-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]