See also: IRC log
<cwebber2> oh hi Arnaud
<aaronpk> all my technology is failing
<Arnaud> tantek can't make the call today and asked me to take over chairing
<aaronpk> can you hear me?
<aaronpk> redialing
<KevinMarks> I'm on but muted, didn't hear aaron
<wilkie> I hear you!
<aaronpk> woo
<aaronpk> ironically hangouts never seems to work for me in chrome. had to dial from safari
<scribe> scribenick: rhiaro
<Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-06-minutes
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-06-minutes
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07-minutes
<Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07-minutes
<KevinMarks> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07-minutes
<KevinMarks> is where micropub is discussed
Arnaud: there's a -1 from tantek about approval of micropub for CR is missing
<KevinMarks> the resolution is in that
Arnaud: MIcropub going to CR was discussed on 2nd day, June 7th, resolution is there to publish new ED
<ben_thatmustbeme> I don't think it was there at the time of his -1
Arnaud: But no resolution on
CR
... Does anybody remember?
<ben_thatmustbeme> oh, nevermind
eprodrom: did we vote on that at the f2f or in the previous telecon
sandro: at the face to face I'm pretty sure
ben_thatmustbeme: I know it stopped tracking minutes at some point
rhiaro: the bot caught that up, that was fixed
Arnaud: we can approve June 6, we
need to do archeology on the 2nd day
... If we are missing minutes maybe somebody has a personal
log?
<KevinMarks> or public log?
<aaronpk> logs here: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2016-06-07
<eprodrom> http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2016-06-07/line/1465317064307
Arnaud: this resolution was
captured about WD, no mention of CR
... Maybe it's the way the proposal and the resolution were
worded?
<aaronpk> we started this document too https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Micropub_CR
<ben_thatmustbeme> should we just make the official resolution again?
sandro: we wouldn't have made the
transition request document if we hadn't
... I'm checking my irc logs
Arnaud: let's not spend too much time on this, see if we can track this down
eprodrom: tantek and I will do that
<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of June 6 2016
<cwebber2> iirc Loqi logs this channel right?
<eprodrom> +1
<cwebber2> +1
+1
<aaronpk> +1
<paul> _1
<aaronpk> cwebber2: that's the url i pasted above (socialwg.indiewebcamp)
<cwebber2> oh oops
<ben_thatmustbeme> I could not find it in my irc logs
<paul> +1
<cwebber2> thx aaronpk
<ben_thatmustbeme> +1
RESOLUTION: Approve minutes of June 6 2016 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-06-minutes
Arnaud: evan, anything blocking?
eprodrom: At the f2f we had gone
through some additional requirements for the document including
implementation report template, that kind of stuff, those are
all now in the documents
... We also chose to move it from jasnell's personal github to
w3c github namespace
<eprodrom> http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/vocabulary/
<eprodrom> http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/url/
eprodrom: So as of right now we have up to date documents at these two urls
<eprodrom> http://w3c.github.io/activitystreams/core/
<wilkie> and I fixed the links on the socialwg wiki to point to them
<wilkie> not sure if there are any other links
eprodrom: These are mostly
editorial changes, the big editorial change was adding an
implementation report template and including that
... Ready for submission of new implementation reports by email
or github PR
<Arnaud> https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams
eprodrom: Our issue list is at
0
... The last outstanding task for me is making sure the
transition req is filled out. I have to answer some questions
on that.
Arnaud: Ist here a schedule for the call?
sandro: Is the test suite stuff done, the cross linking between two different testing systems?
eprodrom: links from the document to the different test suites, link to the paresable data and a link to the validator
sandro: they don't link to each other but I guess that's okay
eprodrom: I can put links on each
of them if that's what we need to get done
... I'll do an issue for a link to the validator from the test
documents directory with a readme
... And a link from the validator to ... one thing that I did
with this last push is that I moved the test data into the spec
document repo, it was easier to keep everything all together.
May do that with the validator code too
aaronpk: I just found a random
URL in the test suite and dropped it into the validator and it
gives a warning that it should have an 'id' property, so I
thought that it might be good to check the test suite data
actually validates
... Looks like the examples are missing ids
Arnaud: we can keep working on the test suite, but good that you point that out
eprodrom: with AS2, there are very few required properties. A name is almost always required, an id is usually required, so we give warnings. We have examples.. one example we have is an empty object. So we have examples that processors should be able to consume and should be able to parse, however when they're put through the validator they'll show warning because they're poor style. Does that make sense?
eprodrom: If you put an empty document through as2.rocks ... I think need to have a testable system for consumers and we need to have test data that's useful to help them test edge cases, but we also have to have those notifications in the validator for those edge cases
<sandro> ( Arnaud, I'd like to return to Micropub CR this meeting, soon )
<Arnaud> ok
aaronpk: How do I know what to do with the data ? How do I know if my code is properly handling it?
eprodrom: What should your code do? Send an email, fetch a url, put a pin into a map. I'm not sure if there's a correct behaviour we can require out of these processors. What we're looking for is can you parse it, does it look right within your framework
cwebber2: I just wanted to follow up; we've discussed this before, AS2 is a vocab and the testing toosl around it don't and can't enfoce side effects. That's what AP and ActivitySub do, they're examples of real requirements of implementing that. This has come up before and we specifically went against requiring side effects to have in the tests, as this isn't specified in the vocabulary
aaronpk: I just want to know how I know if my code is handling it
eprodrom: How would we know that?
Ther'es no way to know that? There are a million different
things you could do
... We can't require any behaviour out of these systems
... One way you might know is if you're writing a parser and
your parser doesn't throw any errors, that's one good way
... So what wev'e done is provide some documents that are known
good, and that's about the extent we can go to
Arnaud: I'd rather not we have
this discussion again, we've gone over it
... There's only so much testing we can do
eprodrom: One thing we could do is are you looking for some comments on this? Like this is a place, this has all the optional attributes of a place... something like that?
aaronpk: The other way to handle
that is are there examples of documents that are known bad, so
I know that if I parse this document I should see an error?
That would help give me something to test
... Otherwise I'm just parsing a json document and tha'ts all
I'm testing
... If there are examples of valid json documents that are
invalid AS2 documents I can use that to test parsing as2
eprodrom: That sounds good. We can put together test documents that are known invalid AS2 documents
aaronpk: THat would definitely help me
sandro: but mostly I think you
have to hand inspect each one. You're supposed to look at the
document, read the spec, and see if your app does whatever
makes sense to do for that content. That's my expectation of
what it means to be a conforming consumer. You can't automate
consumer testing of AS2
... That may be something to say prominently on the readme
around these files
... The implementation report around consumers presumably say
something like my appication understands what this vocabulary
temr means and does something meaningful with it. There's no
way to automatically test that given it's all human
behaviours.. it turns into some html or pixels on the
screen
aaronpk: makes sense
<cwebber-argh> server I was connected to for irc is unreachable
eprodrom: Yeah the implementation
document covers all of the object classes, each property of
each object class, the core and extended vocab, and asks
whether you implemented that class, and for each property did
you implement it, and a place for comments
... So if you implemented audio class but you don't necessarily
process wav files or something, you could put that kind of
comment into there
<cwebber-argh> also we had a heavy discussion about this in SF and after and came to the conclusions about how to go about testing and etc, I really feel like this has been move forwarded with after already being discussed to death
sandro: do you think it's possible peopel might see that and go.. I have a json parser therefore I'm implementing all of this?
eprodrom: We say in our document your application must use this, just passing through unrecognised properties doesn't count as an 'implementation'
<eprodrom> "For each core class your application implements, note which properties of the class it uses. Here, "implements" means that your application uses the property directly; just passing through unrecognized properties doesn't count as an "implementation"."
Arnaud: I think this is good,
still some things to be tied up, but I don't hear anything that
would stop us on the CR request
... We already have a resolution
eprodrom: I'd like to take the current version and take the new links to WD and we do need a resolution on that
<Arnaud> PROPOSED: publish the latest editor's draft of AS 2
<aaronpk> +1
<eprodrom> +1
<cwebber-argh> +1
+1
<ben_thatmustbeme> +1
<sandro> +1 (as new WD)
RESOLUTION: publish the latest editor's draft of AS 2 as new WD
<KevinMarks> +1
Arnaud: sandro, you'll work on the scheduling and sending the request?
sandro: yes
... Back to micropub. I did find me IRC log and it looks like
we messed up and we didn't record that
<ben_thatmustbeme> obviously tantek did understand that was well
sandro: I certainly understood
that we had. I've talked to Wendy about it. But it's not in the
record, so that's an oops
... I guess the easiest thing to do would be to do that
resolution now?
<KevinMarks> makes sense
<Arnaud> PROPOSED: Move MicroPub to CR
<ben_thatmustbeme> +1
<eprodrom> +1
<KevinMarks> +1
<aaronpk> +1
<cwebber-argh> +1
<sandro> +1 (I feel we decided this as the F2F but it didnt get recorded)
<wilkie> +1
+1
RESOLUTION: Move MicroPub to CR
<cwebber2> whew, back on this server :)
Arnaud: want to add anything on status of WD?
aaronpk: I went through all the
issues from the f2f and published a new WD yesterday. All work
we had agreed on at the f2f
... No more open issues on that
<aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/
sandro: as far as you know we're
ready to finish the transition request. Wouldn't hurt for
people to give it another read
... Later today I'll look over them both and try to send
them
... Evan do you think you'll be able to do your publication
today?
eprodrom: I think so. There may be some trickiness with the fact we've moved to a different ED location. I'm not sure if the echidna token stays valid...
aaronpk: I'm pretty sure they do
eprodrom: If that works then I should probably be able to do it after the call
sandro: I will circulate a doodle poll once I have a little more data from folks
ben_thatmustbeme: I ran out of the meeting early last time and we resolved to get there. I don't know where to go next. I need to work out with sandro to get a token to publish
Arnaud: It doesn't work for the fpwd
ben_thatmustbeme: So then I don't know
sandro: we've already got the
approval from wendy for that so it's the talking with the
webmaster
... I guess send me an email with the pointers to what you've
got and I'll try to help you from there
ben_thatmustbeme: ok
Arnaud: tantek is not here, so we skip for this week?
eprodrom: he presented a new version at the f2f but I'm not sure if there have been any new devleopments on it since then
<sandro> FPWD was approved
Arnaud: I see there are open issues so this is work in progress obviously
sandro: the main thing is this was approved for fpwd by the group and wendy, so we are ready to publish once he turns the crank, same as ben
Arnaud: unelss anybody else has anything to add I think we can leave it at this for this week?
aaronpk: We have received a couple of implementation reports, one from ben and one from GNU Social
<aaronpk> https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/blob/master/implementation-reports/gnusocial.md
aaronpk: That's pretty
exciting
... Three including mine. HOpefully we'll get more coming
in
... I have been working on the issues and published a new ED
with a lot of the issues addressed. Still a couple of open
ones
<aaronpk> http://webmention.net/draft/
aaronpk: One in particular I
would like to get some help on, but I can chat offline about
that, it's a minor thing
... So new ED yesterday
... Not ready to publish a WD of that yet
<ben_thatmustbeme> i had wanted to show off mf2 -> as2 conversion for SOME things, but my hosting provider is having issues, so i'll hold off on that
eprodrom: I have a question for
aaronpk
... I looked through exit criteria for webmention. Report for
GNU Social has a couple of unchecked boxes, I assume that's
going to be the case for all implementations
... What happens if we have 3 implementations or 5
implementations, and none of them pass discovery test 17 for
example
aaronpk: my understanding is that
each part needs to be implemented by at least 2, but no
implementation has to implement everything
... If there is something that nobody has implemented we take
it out of the spec because it had no purpose. But correct me if
I'm wrong
sandro: that sounds right
Arnaud: The exit criteria is
every feature has to be implemented by two implementations at
least
... If one part is not implemented, one way to deal with it is
to prompt implementors to implement it
... Then you can declare victory and move forards. Downside is
you're focring peopel to implement something they don't care
about
... Other thing to do would take a resolution from the wg, to
publish a new CR without that feature
<sandro> Yeah -- nudging people to implement something just for the spec is a BAD IDEA. (and I confess I've done it several times. With lots of regret.)
Arnaud: Still delayed because of
process
... Just a matter of a few weeks
aaronpk: is this non-normative things, or only normative?
Arnaud: non-normative is
editorial, we can change anything we want
... Between CR and PR you can change anything that's not
normative
... Only talking about what impacts compliance
sandro: I'm a little fuzzy about
the SHOULDs
... Do you think that we can .. I don't think we can freely
change places where the spec says you SHOULD do this.. we can't
just take those out or add those
Arnaud: I think technically you can
sandro: I think it would invalidate reivews. I wouldn't want to do that withotu careful thought
Arnaud: I agree with that, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Probably wise not to do that casually
eprodrom: the only thing that I'm getting out of.. looking at the gnu social implementation.. seems like they skipped some of the security and verification suggestions, which I think are that's up to you if you choose not to implement the security ocnsiderations, but if we see a pattern there where we see no-one implements the chekc of not accepting webmentions that are in an html comment, I wonder if that informs any decision making we do later on. Do we
change it in the spec?
scribe: We're suggesting some verification, validation and security parts of the implementation. We have at least one case where somoene has skipped a lot. If we see people skipping a lot is that cause for concern for us?
Arnaud: You could write up an
issue to say you think we got it wrong about security and we
need to change the spec to make it reuqired
... Then we'd need a new CR and new implementation reports
<ben_thatmustbeme> aaronpk, i don't actually see in the spec reference to ignoring links in HTML comments actually
eprodrom: I'm going to keep an
eye open. i think that in writing most of our specs we are
saying it's okay to do x because you will also do y. It's okay
to include this link in your page because you're also going to
be verifying the link was in this webmention. It's okay to
include unverified properties in your AS2 because you're going
to be checking this and this. But if you don't do the checks, i
makes those other parts more dangerous
... I'll keep an eye on this. I'll raise it if it seems to be a
pattern
... Aaron, for your implementation did you do these security
considerations?
aaronpk: My implementation passes
all of the webmention.rocks test
... In security I think mine.. I don't moderate, I displya them
immediately. I don't reverify. I don't have a byte limit, but I
do have a time limit
<ben_thatmustbeme> i had wanted to show off mf2 -> as2 conversion for SOME things, but my hosting provider is having issues, so i'll hold off on that
<cwebber2> +q
Arnaud: We have 8 minutes left, anything else?
cwebber2: I thought I'd give an
update on activitypub stuff
... One thing is that jessica and I have done some large
refactoring of the document that's making things structurally
better to reduce effort when we split into two documents
<aaronpk> ben_thatmustbeme, i don't think it needs to explicitly say ignore links in comments since it says to explicitly look for <a> <img> and <video> and similar tags
cwebber2: So I have also
completely marked up locally everything that needs to be done
towards that and am working on that
... Meanwhile jessica merged a couple of issues we'd
discussed
... And there's a PR from jessica that we're looking at
merging, we just need to refactor it to the existing refactor
that just happened. THerew as also some discussion we should
have next week about authentication stuff
... Not now, possibly complicated
... One positivie thing, I should have a minimal implementation
of AP done that I could report on
... That I can point to
... That's mostly it
<ben_thatmustbeme> aah aaronpk, i see that now, that does make sense, yes
cwebber2: One other thing that's
not AP related
... More about implementations of AS2
... I had recently updated activipy to handle the id and type
aliases, and as we discussed you don't need @id and @type, we
support id and type
... I supported that from a consumption standpoint, but I'm
still outputting @id and @type. In a certain sense it's easier
for me because I'm using json-ld tooling
... Using the context for @id and @type as aliases is kind of
-cwebber2 cuts off-
... Is it mandatory to use them without the @, and we expect
all AS2 documents do use them without the @ or is that
optional?
... It's not clear in the document currently, it says they're
equivalent, doesn't require
eprodrom: that question is above
my pay grade
... The way that we've structured the aliases, it's preferable
for publishers to output without the @
... But it's still valid AS2 if you have them
cwebber2: I'm going to make the change to make it output them without, so I'll do that soon but not immediately if it's still valid
Arnaud: If you want to, feel free to put that as an agenda item for next week
<ben_thatmustbeme> it was my understanding as well that the @id should always be id
rhiaro: if both are allowed, what's the point of the alias?
<ben_thatmustbeme> etc
rhiaro: It's a massive pain to check for both
eprodrom: I'd like to put this on
the agenda for next week
... I'll be better informed then
... and what that means for publishers and consumers
... I understand for consumers it's an extra burden to check
for both and it would be good to minimise that burden
Arnaud: every time you add some
flexibility it means more pain
... Anything else? We're out of time
<ben_thatmustbeme> rhiaro++
<Loqi> rhiaro has 207 karma
Arnaud: Have a good day :)
<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Arnaud/sandro/ Found ScribeNick: rhiaro Inferring Scribes: rhiaro Default Present: cwebber, Arnaud, aaronpk, eprodrom, ben_thatmustbeme, wilkie, KevinMarks, sandro, rhiaro Present: cwebber Arnaud aaronpk eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme wilkie KevinMarks sandro rhiaro Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-21 Found Date: 21 Jun 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/06/21-social-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]