See also: IRC log
<yaso_> New agenda **https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160415
<scribe> scribe: phila
<scribe> scribenick: phila
PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-dwbp-minutes
<yaso_> +1
<riccardoAlbertoni> +1
<antoine> +1
+1
<Caroline> +1
<BernadetteLoscio> +1
<PWinstanley> +1
RESOLUTION: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-dwbp-minutes
<ericstephan> +1
yaso_: I was going to cancel the
meeting today after Phil and Annette's concerns, but I suggest
we can discuss the last changes
... But it looks like only Phil and Annette had time to read
the doc carefully.
... I had a message from Augusto from the ministry of planning
asking how he can contribute
... He wants to read the doc entirely
... Phi's suggestoons make sense, so I'm inclined to make this
a 30 minute meeting
... so we can finish early and go to read the document
... Pay some attention to the changes and see what's the most
important.
... So can Annette start by talking about the changes?
... Or the editors?
annette_g: I can just say that there's a list... I've been going through each BP more carefully than for a while.
<Caroline> -1 to finish this meeting earlier
annette_g: In my defnece, things
have been changing rapidly, which is all to the good. It's
becoming a doc I can get behind.
... But when I look I keep finding more that I want to comment
on.
<Caroline> I think we should use this meeting to discuss issues that have been raised
annette_g: But I have given it a
lot of time.
... I hope that we can work through these things and make it
better.
BernadetteLoscio: I'd like to
thank Phil and Annette for the detailed review.
... Phil for correcting the English
... Happy that we have a good feedback
... It's just good if we had had this before of course so we
can continue with the schedule.
... We made some updates on the examples so that we have
examples for all the BPs.
... Some comments are easy to address, others are not so easy,
especially because they concern sections that are not... we had
a lot of discussion about specific sections
... and we don't feel comfortable just changing according to
the suggestions. We'll need WG discussion.
... SO we need more time, but we also need a deadline
<yaso_> +1 to BernadetteLoscio for the deadlines
BernadetteLoscio: By when WG
members will complete the review, and now you can make the
updates and set up issues.
... We need the feedback and we need the deadline.
yaso_: May I suggest the deadline will be 2 weeks' time.
BernadetteLoscio: I think that's
too long. We need to publish the LC
... So I think 2 weeks is too long. If we have to update the
doc after that it's going to take too long.
... The document is frozen last week, we had a week when we
couldn't make any updates.
... If we stay 2 more weeks without working I think that's too
long.
yaso_: OK, but I'm trying to
accomodate everyone's suggestions.
... It's true that the Wg wasn't god at providing feedback on
time.
... Maybe one more week.
<annette_g> one week would be enough for me.
ericstephan: I have a general
comment. From an editor's perspective, it's exhausting.
... I can't imagine all the things the editors are going
through.
... To capture all of these comments, I wonder whether we
should identify issues rather they and fix the doc. use the
tracker.
Caroline: I think Eric has a
point. I wonder, it woujld be nice to hear from the WG - how
long do you need.
... +1 to Eric on raising issues, then we can mark issues as
having been solved.
... WE know the doc is very long.
... So we need to know how long reviers need.
annette_g: I agree that we can do
our reviews in less than 2 weeks. 1 week is enough for me.
We're getting to the point where we need to resolve these
things.
... It's tempting to say there'll be another version. I'm
feeling pressure that we need to finish.
... In the long run, it pays to handle these things earlier
rather than later.
BernadetteLoscio: What we are
planning is to collect the comments and then try and group them
in sections.
... The try to make the updates in a mroe consistent way.
... That's why a deadline for the reviews is nice.
... We want any disagreements to be obvious from the
reviews.
... We won't update the doc yet. We'll come up with
proposals.
yaso_: Time frame?
BernadetteLoscio: annette_g
Suggested one more week to finish the review and then after
that the review time is over. Then we'll start to update the
doc.
... SO maybe we'll need another week to make the updates.
<annette_g> you need separate non-review editorial time. If we take a week for reading, you need another week for editing.
ericstephan: That sounds reasonable. But I see that sometimes we're getting into infinite loop about certain topics and I'd suggest that when we get to where there is no agreement, we need a place to submit issues.
phila: Where there is no consensus - take that part out.
yaso_: I think we should have a
vote on the new time line
... The it's up to the editors to decide whether there is or
isn';t agreement.
laufer: A question for Phil, - if
there is a deadline?
... We are in a loop. I don't understand how our comments can
be too late.
... Otehrs will comment too. When does the loop end?
... If we have one week for comments, then a week for the
editors, then we need another week to read what the editors
have done - and we'll still have comments.
... What is the power of the editors to say - this is it.
<annette_g> I spent a whole day, too
phila: Talks about deadlines
laufer: The main goal of this
draft is to enable people to make implementations]
... If no on eof the group has objections about the BP
collection and that they are clear, why can't we deliver this
draft? We can make some changes
... But for me I would vote on the doc today.
yaso_: Next Friday is a holiday in Brazil.
phila: If I were to vote today, I
would vote no.
... I should have done it weeks/months ago. So should you
(everyone)
... I want to cancel next Friday's call, but set a deadline for
comments
... of Wednesday, leaving 10 days for the editors to make their
changes by 29/4
... Then it's up to the editors to see if we have
consensus.
laufer: We need a week with the
frozen document.
... We will have the discussion, then the changes. We need the
doc in a frozen state, So you think 5 days aren't enough.
<BernadetteLoscio> I think we should keep the call
Caroline: As yaso said, next
friday is a holiday in Brazil, but we editors think we really
should maintain this meeting. We're willing to go to the
meeting next week.
... I guess non-Brazilians will be OK to be there.
phila: You have your frozen document
annette_g: I imagine there's
enough in what Phil and I have written already that the editors
could make a start
... you may not piush the changes but you can start
BernadetteLoscio: Just to say that the doc will be frozen this week and Annete just said what we said, yes, we'll keep the doc frozen.
<yaso_> acl laufer
laufer: Last meeting we voted
about 3 BPs about which I have strong objections.
... I'm OK with this, If we dont;' include things where we have
strong objections, then we won't have a document
Caroline: Just to make sure we
discuss content next week
... We'll have feedback by mail, and then next week we can talk
about content
<ericstephan> +1 Caroline
Caroline: So my proposal is that
we keep discussing content and trying to figure out what
changes to make. Next week we take the time to discuss the
things that we can't resolve by e-mail.
... So we can finish editing the doc.
yaso_: So we can vote next
Friday?
... Not next Friday, the 29th
... I'm trying to make sure finish.
... On 22 we talk about changes and suggestions.
... Then on 29 we vote on publication.
... Correct Caroline?
BernadetteLoscio: If we do this,
then we won't have a week that the doc will be frozen again.
This week the doc will be frozen. We'll work but we can't
finish it.
... Then the week after to address the comments
<BernadetteLoscio> great!
<yaso_> +1 to phila
<laufer> the problem is not the review... the problem is to have an agreement with the comments about the reviews....
annette_g: I think we do need to
include time for review just before the vote.
... There has to be some time for people to review what they're
voting on. Maybe another week, or maybe a more granular time
line
... WE do need a freeze before the vote
yaso_: Following Phil's mood, I don't think we need another week of frozen document
<ericstephan> :-)
<laufer> we have serious problems when we have a not frozen document to vote...
annette_g: Can we havea the diffs.
<laufer> had*
annette_g: I can't vote on a doc
I haven't read.
... reading this big doc takes forever
... And we need time to do this
<BernadetteLoscio> the idea is to review during the next weeks
yaso_: It may not need a whole week
<riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to yaso_
annette_g: Indeed, it might not. Maybe a few days
yaso_: I'm thinking 2 days
... So freeze on Wed 27
<BernadetteLoscio> -1
<laufer> +1
annette_g: The Wed before the end of the month.
<BernadetteLoscio> I dont agree with frozen again
phila: The Diff tool is helpful. http://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fdwbp%2Fbp.html&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fphilarcher1.github.io%2Fdwbp%2Fbp.html#dataFormats
<Caroline> -1 to frozen it again
BernadetteLoscio: The editors
need to speak!
... We don't agree with frozen again. Maybe we won't need it,
maybe we will.
... I think what we should do, we have to review now and then
the editors will mtry to solve the conflicts, make
proposals
... and we'll try to do this in the next 2 weeks.
... Before 29th, we need to have an agreement. If we don't have
agreement, then we decide on 29th
... We need people to make the review now.
... It's not fair to give 2 more days of a froizen doc. That's
not fair on us.
... If we're not ready, we'll say so.
yaso_: I really think people need a day or two to read the doc
<annette_g> +1 to yaso
yaso_: and we ned to close the
loop. The 2 days are not to make chages, it's to read the doc
before the voting.
... I think we need the time to read the doc, not to change it.
Changes come before hand.
... the frozen days are to read the doc.
... ANd I agree with Berna that we have to make an effort to be
ready for 29
<laufer> What will happend if someone do not agree with the new frozen document? I agree with Bernadette that the issues have to be solved in the email discussion. We have then to trust that the changes will be done.
<laufer> And then vote.
<ericstephan> 22
<BernadetteLoscio> +1 to laufer
phila: Scribe interrupt - what ahppens next week?
Wednesday 20th - deadline for comments
Friday 22 - discuss changes
BernadetteLoscio: It's like Laufer said, if we freeze, the loop is endless. We need a firm deadline
<laufer> Let´s say that we need 1 day to read the document that will be voted. And made our thinking about our vote.
<Caroline> I kindly ask that we solve this before ending this meeting
<annette_g> I cannot in good conscience agree to publish a document whose content I don't know.
[Discussion continues around deadlines and freezing]
<Caroline> please let Annette and Antoine talk
<Caroline> please!!!
annette_g: If we're going to do a vote, we need a chnace to read the doc in a stavble state. Small changes addressing other people's issues will potentially make the doc disagreeable to others.
<laufer> 1 day for reading a document that we have already read.
annette_g: It's unfair to ask people to vote on something they haven't read
<BernadetteLoscio> yes, that's the idea!!!! :)
<ericstephan> +1 antoine
antoine: I was about to ask whether it's possibel tuse this diff tool so that we'd have a snapshot every day. So you can see the day before the vote you get a quick overbiew of changes
<BernadetteLoscio> +1 to Antoine!!!!!
antoine: The you're voting on something that is under control.
yaso_: SO next week we'll discuss the changes
<Caroline> we will do what Antoine proposed. Does everyone agree?
yaso_: And the agenda is to look at changes made betwene now and then.
<laufer> +1 to antoine
<Caroline> we will send emails with the changes
<ericstephan> 20
Wednesday 20 - deadlien for review comments
<BernadetteLoscio> yes
Friday 22 we'll discuss issues arising from the review
between Friday 22 - and Wednesday 27th, nightly diffs?
<BernadetteLoscio> +q
yaso_: Stick to that timeline to
next friday and then decide
... So Wednesday is the deadline for commnets
... from the WG. We can't predict the future
<laufer> may we extend this meeting a little more?
yaso_: (scribe paraphrase)
<Zakim> Caroline, you wanted to answer annette_g
BernadetteLoscio: Our idea is
what Antoine said - we'll discuss the comments from Phil and
Annete ASAP
... when we have a proposal, we'll make it
... And we'll start on that now
... We're going to show every update to the group.
... That's why I don't think it will be necessary to freeze.
Look at the changes and comment immediately.
newton: +1 to
BernadetteLoscio
... We don't need a snapshot
... We'll let the WG know every change we commit to github
yaso_: We should focus oin the
netx week and decide what to do next Friday.
... we'll decide more then.
... So we decide next week on whetehr a freeze is
necessary
... So thanks all. Please read the doc and suggest the changes
before the voting.
<yaso_> +1 to phila
<riccardoAlbertoni> bye .. .
<ericstephan> bye everyone
<yaso_> bye all!
<annette_g> bye!
<laufer> bye all...