13:02:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dwbp
13:02:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-dwbp-irc
13:02:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 351
13:02:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dwbp
13:02:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DWBP
13:02:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
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13:02:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:02:11 <trackbot> Date: 15 April 2016
13:02:18 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:02:26 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dwbp
13:02:27 <PWinstanley> present+ PWinstanley
13:02:40 <phila> present+ phila, Yaso
13:03:34 <Makx> Makx has joined #dwbp
13:04:02 <Caroline> Caroline has joined #DWBP
13:04:08 <annette_g> present+ annette_g
13:04:20 <Caroline> Present+ Caroline
13:05:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+ riccardoAlbertoni
13:05:09 <yaso_> present+ yaso
13:05:21 <BernadetteLoscio> present+ BernadetteLoscio
13:05:32 <yaso_> New agenda **https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160415**
13:06:10 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160415
13:06:13 <phila> chair: yaso_
13:06:18 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #dwbp
13:06:18 <antoine> present+ antoine
13:07:18 <phila> scribe: phila
13:07:24 <phila> scribenick: phila
13:07:35 <phila> PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-dwbp-minutes
13:07:39 <yaso_> +1
13:07:43 <laufer> laufer has joined #dwbp
13:07:47 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
13:07:49 <antoine> +1
13:07:51 <phila> +1
13:07:51 <Caroline> +1
13:07:52 <BernadetteLoscio> +1
13:07:55 <laufer> present+ laufer
13:07:56 <PWinstanley> +1
13:07:59 <phila> RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-dwbp-minutes
13:08:00 <ericstephan> +1
13:08:02 <newton> newton has joined #dwbp
13:08:09 <ericstephan> present+ ericstephan
13:08:35 <phila> yaso_: I was going to cancel the meeting today after Phil and Annette's concerns, but I suggest we can discuss the last changes
13:08:49 <phila> ... But it looks like only Phil and Annette had time to read the doc carefully.
13:09:09 <phila> ... I had a message from Augusto from the ministry of planning asking how he can contribute
13:09:16 <phila> ... He wants to read the doc entirely
13:09:35 <phila> ... Phi's suggestoons make sense, so I'm inclined to make this a 30 minute meeting
13:09:44 <phila> ... so we can finish early and go to read the document
13:09:50 <newton> present+ newton
13:09:56 <phila> ... Pay some attention to the changes and see what's the most important.
13:10:11 <phila> yaso_: So can Annette start by talking about the changes?
13:10:19 <phila> ... Or the editors?
13:10:36 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
13:10:44 <phila> annette_g: I can just say that there's a list... I've been going through each BP more carefully than for a while.
13:10:46 <Caroline> -1 to finish this meeting earlier
13:11:03 <phila> ... In my defnece, things have been changing rapidly, which is all to the good. It's becoming a doc I can get behind.
13:11:15 <phila> ... But when I look I keep finding more that I want to comment on.
13:11:16 <Caroline> I think we should use this meeting to discuss issues that have been raised
13:11:24 <phila> ... But I have given it a lot of time.
13:11:34 <yaso_> q?
13:11:38 <yaso_> ack BernadetteLoscio
13:11:39 <phila> annette_g: I hope that we can work through these things and make it better.
13:11:49 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I'd like to thank Phil and Annette for the detailed review.
13:11:56 <phila> ... Phil for correcting the English
13:12:08 <phila> ... Happy that we have a good feedback
13:12:23 <phila> ... It's just good if we had had this before of course so we can continue with the schedule.
13:13:10 <phila> ... We made some updates on the examples so that we have examples for all the BPs.
13:13:36 <phila> ... Some comments are easy to address, others are not so easy, especially because they concern sections that are not... we had a lot of discussion about specific sections
13:13:55 <phila> ... and we don't feel comfortable just changing according to the suggestions. We'll need WG discussion.
13:14:11 <phila> ... SO we need more time, but we also need a deadline
13:14:22 <yaso_> +1 to BernadetteLoscio for the deadlines
13:14:35 <phila> ... By when WG members will complete the review, and now you can make the updates and set up issues.
13:14:48 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: We need the feedback and we need the deadline.
13:15:07 <phila> yaso_: May I suggest the deadline will be 2 weeks' time.
13:15:18 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: I think that's too long. We need to publish the LC
13:15:34 <phila> ... So I think 2 weeks is too long. If we have to update the doc after that it's going to take too long.
13:15:48 <yaso_> q?
13:15:51 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: The document is frozen last week, we had a week when we couldn't make any updates.
13:16:00 <phila> ... If we stay 2 more weeks without working I think that's too long.
13:16:08 <ericstephan> q+
13:16:14 <phila> yaso_: OK, but I'm trying to accomodate everyone's suggestions.
13:16:35 <phila> yaso_: It's true that the Wg wasn't god at providing feedback on time.
13:16:37 <phila> ... Maybe one more week.
13:16:38 <phila> ack e
13:16:39 <annette_g> one week would be enough for me.
13:16:41 <yaso_> ack ericstephan
13:16:45 <Caroline> q+
13:16:58 <phila> ericstephan: I have a general comment. From an editor's perspective, it's exhausting.
13:17:11 <phila> ericstephan: I can't imagine all the things the editors are going through.
13:17:42 <phila> ... To capture all of these comments, I wonder whether we should identify issues rather they and fix the doc. use the tracker.
13:17:45 <phila> ack c
13:17:46 <yaso_> ack Caroline
13:17:59 <annette_g> q+
13:18:06 <phila> Caroline: I think Eric has a point. I wonder, it woujld be nice to hear from the WG - how long do you need.
13:18:20 <phila> ... +1 to Eric on raising issues, then we can mark issues as having been solved.
13:18:25 <phila> ... WE know the doc is very long.
13:18:37 <phila> ... So we need to know how long reviers need.
13:18:40 <phila> q+
13:18:44 <phila> ack a
13:19:07 <phila> annette_g: I agree that we can do our reviews in less than 2 weeks. 1 week is enough for me. We're getting to the point where we need to resolve these things.
13:19:22 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
13:19:27 <phila> ... It's tempting to say there'll be another version. I'm feeling pressure that we need to finish.
13:19:40 <phila> ... In the long run, it pays to handle these things earlier rather than later.
13:19:43 <yaso_> ack phila
13:19:43 <phila> ack p
13:21:50 <ericstephan> q+
13:22:06 <phila> ack b
13:22:07 <yaso_> ack BernadetteLoscio
13:22:31 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: What we are planning is to collect the comments and then try and group them in sections.
13:22:36 <ericstephan> q-
13:22:41 <phila> ... The try to make the updates in a mroe consistent way.
13:22:48 <phila> ... That's why a deadline for the reviews is nice.
13:22:56 <ericstephan> q+
13:23:14 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: We want any disagreements to be obvious from the reviews.
13:23:41 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: We won't update the doc yet. We'll come up with proposals.
13:23:46 <phila> yaso_: Time frame?
13:24:15 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: annette_g Suggested one more week to finish the review and then after that the review time is over. Then we'll start to update the doc.
13:24:24 <phila> ... SO maybe we'll need another week to make the updates.
13:24:28 <phila> ack e
13:24:28 <yaso_> ack ericstephan
13:24:52 <annette_g> you need separate non-review editorial time. If we take a week for reading, you need another week for editing.
13:25:16 <phila> ericstephan: That sounds reasonable. But I see that sometimes we're getting into infinite loop about certain topics and I'd suggest that when we get to where there is no agreement, we need a place to submit issues.
13:25:30 <phila> q+
13:25:36 <yaso_> ack phila
13:26:59 <phila> phila: Where there is no consensus - take that part out.
13:27:49 <laufer> q+
13:27:55 <phila> yaso_: I think we should have a vote on the new time line
13:28:09 <yaso_> ack laufer
13:28:10 <phila> ... The it's up to the editors to decide whether there is or isn';t agreement.
13:28:12 <phila> ack l
13:28:29 <phila> laufer: A question for Phil, - if there is a deadline?
13:28:41 <yaso_> q+
13:28:55 <phila> laufer: We are in a loop. I don't understand how our comments can be too late.
13:29:06 <phila> ... Otehrs will comment too. When does the loop end?
13:29:35 <phila> ... If we have one week for comments, then a week for the editors, then we need another week to read what the editors have done - and we'll still have comments.
13:29:43 <yaso_> q-
13:29:47 <phila> ... What is the power of the editors to say - this is it.
13:31:21 <laufer> q+
13:31:43 <annette_g> I spent a whole day, too
13:32:46 <yaso_> ack laufer
13:32:51 <phila> phila: Talks about deadlines
13:33:05 <phila> laufer: The main goal of this draft is to enable people to make implementations]
13:33:39 <phila> ... If no on eof the group has objections about the BP collection and that they are clear, why can't we deliver this draft? We can make some changes
13:33:56 <phila> ... But for me I would vote on the doc today.
13:34:00 <phila> q+
13:34:13 <yaso_> ack phila
13:34:16 <phila> yaso_: Next Friday is a holiday in Brazil.
13:35:16 <phila> phila: If I were to vote today, I would vote no.
13:35:29 <phila> phila: I shoujld have done it weeks/months ago. So should you (everyone)
13:35:56 <phila> ... I want to cancel next Friday's call, but set a deadline for comments
13:36:03 <newton> s/shoujld/should
13:36:07 <laufer> q+
13:36:15 <phila> ... of Wednesday, leaving 10 days for the editors to make their changes by 29/4
13:36:32 <Caroline> q+
13:36:38 <phila> ... Then it's up to the editors to see if we have consensus.
13:36:39 <yaso_> ack laufer
13:36:40 <phila> ack l
13:36:48 <phila> laufer: We need a week with the frozen document.
13:36:53 <phila> q+
13:37:21 <annette_g> q+
13:37:22 <phila> laufer: We will have the discussion, then the changes. We need the doc in a frozen state, So you think 5 days aren't enough.
13:37:30 <yaso_> ack Caroline
13:37:30 <phila> ack c
13:37:47 <BernadetteLoscio> I think we should keep the call
13:37:59 <phila> Caroline: As yaso said, next friday is a holiday in Brazil, but we editors think we really should maintain this meeting. We're willing to go to the meeting next week.
13:38:10 <phila> ... I guess non-Brazilians will be OK to be there.
13:38:16 <phila> ack p
13:38:17 <yaso_> ack phila
13:38:32 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
13:38:57 <yaso_> ack annette_g
13:39:04 <phila> phila: You have your frozen document
13:39:22 <laufer> q+
13:39:22 <phila> annette_g: I imagine there's enough in what Phil and I have written already that the editors could make a start
13:39:26 <yaso_> ack BernadetteLoscio
13:39:29 <phila> ... you may not piush the changes but you can start
13:39:51 <yaso_> q?
13:39:51 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: Just to say that the doc will be frozen this week and Annete just said what we said, yes, we'll keep the doc frozen.
13:39:54 <yaso_> acl laufer
13:39:57 <yaso_> ack laufer
13:40:22 <phila> laufer: Last meeting we voted about 3 BPs about which I have strong objections.
13:40:50 <Caroline> q+
13:40:57 <yaso_> ack Caroline
13:40:59 <phila> ... I'm OK with this, If we dont;' include things where we have strong objections, then we won't have a document
13:41:19 <phila> Caroline: Just to make sure we discuss content next week
13:41:37 <phila> ... We'll have feedback by mail, and then next week we can talk about content
13:42:09 <ericstephan> +1 Caroline
13:42:10 <phila> ... So my proposal is that we keep discussing content and trying to figure out what changes to make. Next week we take the time to discuss the things that we can't resolve by e-mail.
13:42:17 <phila> ... So we can finish editing the doc.
13:42:25 <phila> yaso_: So we can vote next Friday?
13:42:41 <phila> yaso_: Not next Friday, the 29th
13:42:57 <phila> yaso_: I'm trying to make sure finish.
13:43:06 <phila> ... On 22 we talk about changes and suggestions.
13:43:14 <phila> ... Then on 29 we vote on publication.
13:43:20 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
13:43:23 <phila> ... Correct Caroline?
13:43:25 <yaso_> ack BernadetteLoscio
13:43:55 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: If we do this, then we won't have a week that the doc will be frozen again. This week the doc will be frozen. We'll work but we can't finish it.
13:44:05 <phila> ... Then the week after to address the comments
13:44:07 <phila> q+
13:44:15 <yaso_> ack phila
13:45:13 <BernadetteLoscio> great!
13:45:15 <yaso_> +1 to phila
13:46:09 <laufer> the problem is not the review... the problem is to have an agreement with the comments about the reviews....
13:46:21 <annette_g> q+
13:46:25 <yaso_> ack annette_g
13:46:44 <phila> annette_g: I think we do need to include time for review just before the vote.
13:47:02 <yaso_> q+
13:47:12 <phila> ... There has to be some time for people to review what they're voting on. Maybe another week, or maybe a more granular time line
13:47:27 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
13:47:35 <phila> ... WE do need a freeze before the vote
13:47:50 <phila> yaso_: Following Phil's mood, I don't think we need another week of frozen document
13:48:11 <ericstephan> :-)
13:48:12 <laufer> we have serious problems when we have a not frozen document to vote...
13:48:21 <phila> annette_g: Can we havea the diffs.
13:48:22 <laufer> had*
13:48:28 <phila> annette_g: I can't vote on a doc I haven't read.
13:48:34 <phila> ... reading this big doc takes forever
13:48:40 <phila> ... And we need time to do this
13:48:41 <BernadetteLoscio> the idea is to review during the next weeks
13:49:09 <phila> yaso_: It may not need a whole week
13:49:10 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to yaso_
13:49:18 <phila> annette_g: Indeed, it migbht not. Maybe a few days
13:49:26 <phila> yaso_: I'm thinking 2 days
13:49:35 <phila> ... So freeze on Wed 27
13:49:42 <BernadetteLoscio> -1
13:49:43 <laufer> +1
13:49:50 <BernadetteLoscio> q+
13:49:54 <yaso_> ack yaso_
13:50:02 <phila> annette_g: The Wed before the end of the month.
13:50:02 <newton> s/migbht/might
13:50:12 <BernadetteLoscio> I dont agree with frozen again
13:50:51 <phila> phila: The Diff tool is helpful. http://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fdwbp%2Fbp.html&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fphilarcher1.github.io%2Fdwbp%2Fbp.html#dataFormats
13:50:58 <Caroline> -1 to frozen it again
13:52:09 <yaso_> ack BernadetteLoscio
13:52:11 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: The editors need to speak!
13:52:18 <yaso_> q?
13:52:35 <phila> ... We don't agree with frozen again. Maybe we won't need it, maybe we will.
13:52:50 <phila> ... I think what we should do, we have to review now and then the editors will mtry to solve the conflicts, make proposals
13:53:00 <phila> ... and we'll try to do this in the next 2 weeks.
13:53:29 <phila> ... Before 29th, we need to have an agreement. If we don't have agreement, then we decide on 29th
13:53:38 <phila> ... We need people to make the review now.
13:53:43 <annette_g> q+
13:53:50 <phila> ... It's not fair to give 2 more days of a froizen doc. That's not fair on us.
13:53:57 <phila> ... If we're not ready, we'll say so.
13:54:10 <phila> zakim, close the queue
13:54:10 <Zakim> ok, phila, the speaker queue is closed
13:54:22 <phila> yaso_: I really think people need a day or two to read the doc
13:54:40 <annette_g> q-
13:54:43 <annette_g> +1 to yaso
13:54:46 <phila> ... and we ned to close the loop. The 2 days are not to make chages, it's to read the doc before the voting.
13:55:01 <phila> ... I think we need the gtime to read the doc, not to change it. Changes come before hand.
13:55:15 <phila> ... the frozxen days are to read the doc.
13:55:31 <phila> ... ANd I agree with Berna that we have to make an effort to be ready for 29
13:55:37 <newton> s/gtime/time
13:55:48 <newton> s/frozxen/frozen
13:55:49 <laufer> What will happend if someone do not agree with the new frozen document?  I agree with Bernadette that the issues have to be solved in the email discussion. We have then to trust that the changes will be done.
13:55:57 <laufer> And then vote.
13:56:05 <ericstephan> 22
13:56:10 <BernadetteLoscio> +1 to laufer
13:56:15 <phila> phila: Scribe interrupt - what ahppens next week?
13:57:03 <phila> Wednesday 20th - deadline for comments
13:57:15 <phila> Friday 21 - discuss changes
13:57:42 <newton> s/Friday 21/Friday 22
13:57:45 <annette_g> q+
13:58:32 <antoine> q+
13:58:37 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: It's like Laufer said, if we freeze, the loop is endless. We need a firm deadline
13:59:01 <laufer> Let´s say that we need 1 day to read the document that will be voted.  And made our thinking about our vote.
13:59:03 <Caroline> I kindly ask that we solve this before ending this meeting
13:59:03 <annette_g> I cannot in good conscience agree to publish a document whose content I don't know.
13:59:04 <phila> [Discussion continues around deadlines and freezing]
13:59:11 <Caroline> please let Annette and Antoine talk
13:59:12 <Caroline> please!!!
13:59:26 <phila> zakim, open the queue
13:59:26 <Zakim> ok, phila, the speaker queue is open
14:00:03 <phila> annette_g: If we're going to do a vote, we need a chnace to read the doc in a stavble state. Small changes addressing other people's issues will potentially make the doc disagreeable to others.
14:00:08 <phila> q+ antoine
14:00:12 <laufer> 1 day for reading a document that we have already read.
14:00:20 <Caroline> q+ to answer annette_g
14:00:21 <newton> q+
14:00:22 <phila> annette_g: It's unfair to ask people to vote on something they haven't read
14:00:26 <phila> ack antoine
14:00:48 <BernadetteLoscio> yes, that's the idea!!!! :)
14:00:53 <ericstephan> +1 antoine
14:00:56 <phila> antoine: I was about to ask whether it's possibel tuse this diff tool so that we'd have a snapshot every day. So you can see the day before the vote you get a quick overbiew of changes
14:01:00 <BernadetteLoscio> +1 to Antoine!!!!!
14:01:08 <phila> ... The you're voting on something that is under control.
14:01:15 <phila> yaso_: SO next week we'll discuss the changes
14:01:30 <Caroline> we will do what Antoine proposed. Does everyone agree?
14:01:34 <phila> ... And the agenda is to look at changes made betwene now and then.
14:01:45 <laufer> +1 to antoine
14:01:50 <Caroline> we will send emails with the changes
14:02:23 <ericstephan> 20
14:02:29 <phila> Wednesday 20 - deadlien for review comments
14:02:34 <BernadetteLoscio> yes
14:02:52 <phila> Friday 22 we'll discuss issues arising from the review
14:03:09 <phila> between Friday 22 - and Wednesday 27th, nightly diffs?
14:03:12 <BernadetteLoscio> +q
14:03:45 <phila> yaso_: Stick to that timeline to next friday and then decide
14:03:57 <phila> ... So Wednesday is the deadline for commnets
14:04:08 <phila> ... from the WG. We can't predict the future
14:04:10 <laufer> may we extend this meeting a little more?
14:04:14 <phila> ... (scribe paraphrase)
14:04:20 <yaso_> ack BernadetteLoscio
14:04:20 <phila> ack Caroline
14:04:21 <Zakim> Caroline, you wanted to answer annette_g
14:04:49 <phila> BernadetteLoscio: Our idea is what Antoine said - we'll discuss the comments from Phil and Annete ASAP
14:04:57 <phila> ... when we have a proposal, we'll make it
14:05:05 <phila> ... And we'll start on that now
14:05:20 <phila> ... We're going to show every update to the group.
14:05:39 <phila> ... That's why I don't think it will be necessary to freeze. Look at the changes and comment immediately.
14:05:40 <yaso_> q?
14:05:51 <phila> newton: +1 to BernadetteLoscio
14:05:57 <phila> ... We don't need a snapshot
14:06:15 <phila> ... We'll let the WG know
14:06:31 <phila> yaso_: We should focus oin the netx week and decide what to do next Friday.
14:06:39 <phila> ... we'll decide more then.
14:06:55 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:06:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-dwbp-minutes.html phila
14:07:06 <newton> s/We'll let the WG know/We'll let the WG know every change we commit to github
14:07:08 <yaso_> q?
14:07:11 <newton> q-
14:07:16 <phila> yaso_: So we decide next week on whetehr a freeze is necessary
14:07:37 <phila> yaso_: So thanks all. Please read the doc and suggest the changes before the voting.
14:07:58 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dwbp
14:08:00 <yaso_> +1 to phila
14:08:03 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye .. .
14:08:04 <ericstephan> bye everyone
14:08:05 <yaso_> bye all!
14:08:06 <annette_g> bye!
14:08:07 <laufer> bye all...
14:08:12 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:08:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/15-dwbp-minutes.html phila
14:08:17 <ericstephan> thank you Phil for all the help with the poster
14:08:25 <annette_g> annette_g has left #dwbp
14:08:56 <ericstephan> It will be a very interesting meeting
14:09:38 <ericstephan> I'm going to try to attend the PROV meeting as well in June
14:11:08 <Caroline> Caroline has joined #DWBP
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