Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

09 Nov 2015



Brady Duga, Ivan Herman, Hiroshi Sakakibara (Hiroshi_skk), Tzviya Siegman, Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Florian Rivoal, Ben De Meester, Charles LaPierre, Deborah Kaplan, Paul Belfanti, Karen Myers, Markus Gylling (mgylling), Alan Stearns, Bert Bos, Tim Cole
Daniel Wreck, Nick Ruffilo, Zheng Xu, Peter Krautzberger, Bill Kasdorff, Chris Liley, Vladimir Levantovsky
Markus Gylling
Dave Cramer (dauwhe)


mgylling: let's get going

... welcome to Hiroshi
... he sent introduction to mailing list
... we're happy he's here
... minutes from last week

<mgylling> http://www.w3.org/2015/11/02-dpub-minutes.html

mgylling: any objections to approving the minutes from last week?


scribe: approved

Update on DPUB-ARIA Module

scribe: Topic: update on 2nd WD of DPUB-ARIA module
... when was fpwd?

tzviya: june or july, a long time ago

mgylling: Matt, Tzviya, and I are scrambling to get a set of changes into that draft
... Matt had hoped to do those things today
... but it was delayed
... Tziya, can you walk us thru changes

tzviya: we added a few roles that weren't in FPWD
... colophon
... credit and credits
... epigraph
... errata
... I think that's all that was new
... most were from epub structural semantic vocab
... other changes: aligning with ARIA 1.1
... glossary and glossterm will point to different spots
... discussion about noteref, glossref, etc.
... still a work in progress
... we're hoping for a 3rd WD
... with additional code samples

mgylling: big question is about roles on links
... epub has been doing that (noteref etc)
... useful for AT
... being able to relay nature of link to user
... but there are production-time use cases for what kind of link
... but this hasn't been done in ARIA at all
... so there's a huge discussion about whether @role should be extended to cover link natures
... or use @rel or something new
... so these are not ready for use
... we don't need a formal decision
... we just want general support for a new WD
... this is a good time to think about next steps
... you mentioned 3rd WD
... one question we get from epub users is about all the other terms that are not in ARIA
... there's a big difference in size
... epub vocab has some terms that will probably go away but there are lots more terms
... how do we see the evolution
... so there's not such a large discrepancy

tzviya: we thought you'd solve it ;)

mgylling: this is not 2 different vocabs
... in the logical sense. we want zero discrepancy in the end
... we've refined some definitions in w3c space, and are backporting
... I suppose we just have to push on
... w3c vocab will have to grow, IDPF vocab will have to shrink
... and find the golden middle road
... that's easy to say, but how do we do it?
... we should remind ARIA WG and ourselves that the 3rd WD should not only have code samples but bring over more terms
... and we need to solve link problem

tzviya: there's some tension with ARIA group about how many terms we throw in
... do all of the epub terms belong in aria, or is there a better home for them?
... is @rel appropriate, etc
... even though it's nice they all live in 1 place in epub
... to avoid abusing aria we may need to make sure we're not dumping terms there for convenience

mgylling: any other questions

tzviya: I have q for group
... I know several organizations who want to use this vocab
... will other orgs please reach out to the list if you plan to use the vocab

mgylling: we don't need formal decision
... it's basically an update
... we need to record general agreement to publish with changes we've mentioned
... any objections?


mgylling: sounds good to me

Resolution: publish new WD of DPUB-ARIA

CSSWG examples

mgylling: there's a request from csswg for DPUB to provide detailed and extensive examples of typographic issues
... like hyphenation and table alignment
... why don't we just expand latinreq
... but they want test cases, long lists of all variations, etc

Florian: I'm not sure I'd describe this as test cases
... when csswg is evaluating how to solve a problem
... we have to look how things fall apart
... having examples of how things should work
... and access to people who wrote example
... what if window is too small, or too big--what would be a good fallback
... it's hard to discuss in abstract
... especially when css folks aren't experts
... what specifically are you trying address?
... a corpus of examples
... would be good

<mgylling> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/

Florian: JLreq is describing the print status quo
... rather than specifics of what we want
... useful as a reference
... but if you want to pinpoint a specific issue
... then the corpus of examples is useful

mgylling: how would such material look
... screenshots of table alignment as they appear in textbooks

Florian: annotated screenshots, with intent
... since CSS has to work regardless of font, screen size, etc
... have to deal with corner cases and error cases
... more so than in print oriented
... as then doc author can fix, but in css that's not the case
... annotated screenshots with descriptions is a good thing, along with a champion
... Dave can be that person, and I can too, depending on topic

mgylling: what's the priority order
... who would do the work of the corpus
... I understand better now
... and everyone at TPAC already knew this ;)

ivan: Rossen referred to screenshots

mgylling: how do we establish priority
... how do we get resources


dauwhe: note how technical some of these issues are

<tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

tzviya: we do have the document for prioritization

Florian: that prioritization includes the line grid
... which is already specified
... I will be gathering requirements from i18n on inline grid stuff

mgylling: as you said, Tzviya, the priorities document exists
... but is so big
... but where to start

<astearns> there may be some self-selected prioritization indicated by the time people in the group are willing to put towards collecting examples

mgylling: Dave specified decimal alignment in tables

Florian: on initial letter, do you feel like you have all the info you need

dauwhe: good with Latin, no info on Arabic, OK on indic, need more info on CJK

mgylling: how do we go forward
... do we have a subgroup

dauwhe: there is a pagination / layout subgroup

mgylling: ask for specific volunteers for particular areas

tzviya: we have new people on the call with knowledge
... let's get a volunteer for examples of table alignment

Hiroshi_skk: we have examples around character grids and CJK language learning
... will send to i18n list

tzviya: can you collect examples about table alignment

Hiroshi_skk: collecting info is good

Florian: Hiroshi is discussing inline grid character alignment, which is a separate topic from table alignment

Hiroshi_skk: Let me know

tzviya: anyone else who has examples of table alignment. I have some but I'm not going to volunteer

mgylling: any other volunteers for table alignment?
... assuming we're starting with this
... any volunteers for any other areas

volunteers of the world, unmute yourselves!

mgylling: we should reach out and crowd source

Florian: this is working for char grid
... hanging punctuation use case is on the same list
... the same group of people would be look at that
... sound like a good approach
... I wasn't there when priority list was written, but that presumes someone felt strongly about things

TimCole: on the bigger document we cover a lot of ground--math etc
... the idea here is to focus, but I'm concerned that there may be overlaps
... alignment in tables v alignment in matrices
... are there commonalities
... like math and table alignment

<astearns> its a good question, and common requirements should probably bump priority, but I'd like to see specific examples from each rather than trying to devise a common feature that would work generally

dauwhe: tables are a black art in browsers

Florian: maybe we need a new, non-insane table mode
... fixing things is possible, building things on top of is probably not

mgylling: we do have lots of regrets today
... so chairs can think about outreach, etc
... Hiroshi asked about priority of char alignment in tables
... we thought we'd start with something, it happened to be table alignment
... we won't say no to volunteers

Hiroshi_skk: I'll try to find JP examples

Florian: maybe start a wiki page on what we want screenshots for
... so there's a place to put things

ivan: depends
... at the end of the day this will be put together by dave
... wiki page or github

NoelTanner: wiki page may be best option
... problems with music, images, text
... so I could post examples on a whim

mgylling: wiki is more whim-friendly

<tzviya> the wiki exists already: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/Latinreq

dauwhe: we're just happy to get example

tzviya: I'll add header right now

mgylling: we'll get back to this on the next call or the call after that


mgylling: The CG has requested information about existing methods and documentation for publishing
... can you translate?

tzviya: we know about EPUB and PDF
... the POM should work across different kinds of publications
... Daniel wants to learn about different publication types
... JATS, BITS, whatever else there is
... so the CG can familiarize itself with the formats

mgylling: is he requesting info about XML grammars?

tzviya: any publication formats common in the industry

ivan: the idea right now is to define POM as a general API that can be used with various things

mgylling: that's why I was asking about JATS and BITS, they are not consumable publication formats

ivan: I am not sure
... after the processing of a JATS file, what is produced?
... what is the publication format? Is it html5 on the web?
... the JATS file itself is not what Daniel is looking for

mgylling: it's more about publication formats as when they reach users, like PDF and EPUB
... what are other such formats that are alive today?

ivan: Kindle format

tzviya: that's very public

mgylling: there are manga and comic formats
... sequences of bitmaps etc

<tzviya> send information to public-pom@w3.org

mgylling: so anyone who knows about publication formats, send info to public-pom@w3.org
... should we give an action item to have someone send KF8 info to Daniel?

tzviya: I can do that. What happened to the action tracker?

<scribe> ACTION: Tzviya to send KF8 links to POM CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/11/09-DPUB-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Send kf8 links to pom cg [on Tzviya Siegman - due 2015-11-16].

mgylling: any other questions about Poms?
... it looks like we're done for today
... next week's agenda will be PWP document
... then we'll focus on identifiers, and their harmonization between PWP and EPUB

<ivan> mail on the changes

mgylling: it will be lots of fun
... and we'll touch on volunteers for CSS examples
... thanks everyone.

<ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Tzviya to send KF8 links to POM CG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/11/09-DPUB-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.140 (CVS log)
$Date: 2015/11/10 08:25:16 $