See also: IRC log
Ira: there's been an ODRL CG
-> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/ ODRL CG
scribe: there's a draft charter-in-progress
-> http://w3c.github.io/ole/charter.html Open License Expression Working Group Charter (Draft)
Benedict Wittam Smith (Thomson Reuters): people want to be able to combine datasets
scribe: we need a solution to be
able to do this at scale
... to know what permissions we have
... we need a machine-readable language to know what
permissions we have, what constraints exist
... we also have a discoverability problem
... if I mix a number of datasets, what can I do with the
results?
DaveCramer (Hachette): the trade book industry has b2b exchange languages
scribe: I think there's been an attempt to do something with rights in this area, don't know how well it's succeeded
TzviyaSeigman(Wiley): Wiley publishes professional textbooks and thousands of journals
scribe: Ben expressed the issues
concisely
... a lot of the licensing right now is in PDF or paper
form
... there's not a good way to express all the complexities of
rights
... if we translate a book to another language we need to
express all the rights someone in that other country has
... different regions, different languages, parts of books,
with different provenance for components of the books
... I represent Wiley in many industry organizations too,
including W3C
... in BISG who primarily represent trade publishers
... BISG has a rights vocabulary which is currently a list of
words
... they would like to be able to feed this into a system
... e.g. express "this book comes with a t-shirt"
... BISG has a consensus vocabulary for US trade publishers
IvanHerman: BIC plays a similar role in the UK
Ira: we need to identify a useful
area of overlap
... that will benefit a wide group of people
IvanHerman(W3C): I am the staff contact for the Digital Publishing Interest Group
scribe: we've had some contact
with BISG while drafting the OLE charter
... I also was active in Data on the Web for a long time and
know that the expression of rights in data has been an interest
for a long time
... e.g. scientific data
... need the rights attached to the data combined with the
rights associated with the scientific publication
... and then the rights attached to software; what cna we use,
reuse, etc.
... e.g. are you allowed to reuse [software] libraries
... I think there are lots of commonalites in these three
areas
<dauwhe> Ralph: I'm w3c staff as well
<dauwhe> ... we want a common vocabulary around rights to help define scope
<dauwhe> ... I expect the participants will have diffferent connotations of common terms
<dauwhe> ... building a shared language
<dauwhe> ... that's one advantage of starting with ODRL
<dauwhe> ... then decide what changes we need
<dauwhe> ... but use ODRL definitions of terms
AxelPolleress(Vienna): we've been monitoring the ODRL CG
scribe: our perspective comes
from Open Data
... integrating Open Data with different licenses and rights
attached to the data
... we're interested in mechanisms that allow automatic
aligment or combination of the licenses
... we'd like to at least partially automate the
combination
... we've looked at how far you can describe, for example, the
CC licenses in ODRL
FelixSasaki(W3C&DFKI): I work in natural language processing, including machine translation
scribe: in this area usage of
data is common; for training corpora, lexicons, ...
... these data sources have been de3veloped outside the Web and
are being moved into the Web under the "brand" of linguistic
linked data
... looking at the European Data Portal you see the challenges
of using open source corpora with in-house corpora
... some corpora have portions that are free and portions that
are not free
... quality assurance processes can have a licensing
aspect
... also relates to having licenses in various (natural)
languages
... applying licenses to translation workflows
OlivierThereault(BBC): some of my colleagues have been in the ODRL CG
scribe: as well as the Linking
Cultural Data CG
... BBC has a goal to help lots of cultural organizations
expose their data on the Web
... and licensing comes into this
Ira: are there different restrictions on different parts of different archives?
Olivier: it's complex; we have
our own archives we want to expose
... we also serve other groups' archives for them
... so we are both a producer and consumer
Kazue: I am working on personal
data stores
... I want to attach a policy to my data to tell others what to
do with my data
... also, if people offer me terms and conditions for use of my
data I want the software for my data store to be able to
determine whether I want to use the data
DanBrickley(Google): Google is likely to be skeptical about the complexity of these systems to scale
scribe: e.g. even robots.txt is super-simple but it gets screwed up
<shevski> http://w3c.github.io/ole/charter.html
scribe: it would be amazing if we can do something more than robots.txt but I haven't seen it
Ira: let's take a look at this
charter
... does it seem to have the right scope?
... is there enough overlap?
Ivan: given a vocabulary, it can
be serialized in several ways
... what worries me is whether there can be an automatic system
that merges two license expressions in any meaningful way
... in the Semantic Web we have tried to come up with reasoning
engines
... some of these are deployed on an acceptable scale; e.g.
OWL
... some, like rule languages, have not been deployed on a
significant scale
... for those that have been deployed I am not sure of the size
of the data they can reasonably handle
... I would guess that these sizes are low relative to the
needs of Thomson-Reuters
... it may still be manageable at the level of rights on each
component of a book
... beyond that I am skeptical
... does ODRL handle this?
... what can we do in a Working Group without prior
experience
Ben: we intend to run proofs of
concept on scalability of content derivations
... at the first level if we can jsut describe our licenses in
a common language this is a huge step forward
... the next level is to be able to trace through provenance
what license belongs to a particular dataset
... then we have the issue of whether we can automatically
generate a policy when we combine datasets
... we may be able to use an inference engine to do this but it
can also be done with a very simple rule engine
... finally there's the issue of generating permissions for
these combinations of contracts
... we might not use ODRL to do this; we might compile down to
a more performant representation
Tzviya: my colleague says his
dream world describes policy relationships
... he thinks allowing the declaration of multiple policies on
a resource would move the focus
... he thinks some simple extensions to ODRL can accomplish
this
<AxelPolleres> Are we talking about https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2-1/ ?
Ben: ODRL does have some strange directions in its relationships; these would be easy to swap
Axel: I wouldn't say that OWL or a specific rule dialect would necessarily be the right reasoning formalism
<danbri> ralph, the rrsagent logs seem to be empty
Axel: looking at the ODRL terms I
see implicit connections
... e.g. 'reproduce'
... implies 'read'
... some violations of combinability can be discovered with
simple mechanism
ivan: I want to understand what
this working group is aiming at
... Ben noted a useful step one
... is it resonable for this WG to do more than that?
... if not, we should say so in the charter
... if we intend to do a simple rules system this should be
carefully scoped in the charter
... there are limits to how far this might go; it may not
scale
Ben: I don't think there's any
prior art for combination of policies
... there's some academic work
... I think we will start getting answers over the next couple
of months
Ivan: if there's no prior art
then W3C might not want a Working Group to do fundamental
research
... we would exclude from the charter to standardize a
specialized rule language
Axel: no one proposed that
Ivan: the use cases require
reasoning over data
... we have to be clear that we won't solve this
<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/ws-policy/
Felix: in Web Services Policy
there's a way to combine service descriptions
... there's no inferencing at all
... this is widely deployed
<AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres: My goal would be at least to take https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2-1/ and resolv, clarify disambiguation/semantics of the terms used in the vocabulary, but not standardizing some formalism to reason about it. I’t just about definint implicit relations among this terms and compatibility … along the lines what felix says.
Ben: derivation is intersection
Felix: it can be described as set operations
Axel: right
<danbri> see also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy/
Ira: it might be straightforward in some cases and not in others
Ivan: we should not promise that we would do these rules in this WG
Ira: in the open data space it
would be useful to have a way to combine and make explicit
machine-readable restrictions
... I think some of this should be in scope
Ivan: I'm playing devil's
advocate
... I propose that it should be out of scope for the OLE WG to
do reasoning on the data
Axel: even set operations?
Ivan: we need to be slightly more
flexible that than
... I don't want us to get stuck in research
... we've done that in the past and that's why I'm cautious
DanBri: ODRL has been around for 15 years
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about ODRL standards
DanBri: what lessons have we learned from its deployment?
Ira: I asked that too
Ben: AP is using ODRL
... describing wire photos
... .photo editors go through lots of photographs looking at
restrictions; geographic, etc.
... AP is adding ODRL to allow the CMS to prefilter for the
subeditor
... this is saving a lot of time for the editors to check
<ivan> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-metadata/
Ben: if we can automate 80% of this it will be a big advance
Ivan: the Digital Publishing IG published a Note on metadata in the publishing industry
<danbri> http://virtualgoods.org/2013/ reports the "9th W3C ODRL Community Group" meeting — there may be records from those events that can help
Ivan: this was based on a series
of interviews done by the IG
... one thing came up
... IDEAlliance is also working on rights expressions for
magazines, based on ODRL
... IPTC was involved
... so ODRL wasn't done in a vacuum
Ben: "license" cuts the scope far
too thin
... that covers copyright
... other things that concern use policy are privacy, @@
Olivier: could we do a first
iteration that only does licensing?
... and broaden to policy later
Alex: it's a terminology
issue
... starting with "license" might be harder to broaden
later
Ben: we're looking at this as a
means to help us stay compliant
... with data residency requirements and privacy
requirements
... we want a way to manage all these concerns
... limiting to just license limits the value to us
<danbri> re ODRL see http://virtualgoods.org/2013/ODRL_2_0_Revisited_VirtualGoods2013.pdf "Improving ODRL" sections
Felix: I think we may not need an additional mechanism, just another use of the same mechanism
Ira: issues/next steps/concerns?
Ralph: who's willing to submit comments on this draft charter?
Tzviya: Wiley will submit some
Ben: Thomson will submit some too
Ira:
mailto:public-ole-comment@w3.org
... end of November?
Ralph: we want to fix the charter with your comments *before* sending it for Member review
[adjourned]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/lej/lem/ Succeeded: s/.. /... / Succeeded: s/AxelPollare/AxelPolleres/ Succeeded: s/nto the Web/nto the Web under the "brand" of linguistic linked data/ Succeeded: s/@@/Kazue/ Succeeded: s/alter/later/ Succeeded: s/public/mailto:public/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: Ralph Inferring Scribes: Ralph WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Alex Axel AxelPolleres Ben Felix Ira Ivan IvanHerman Kazue Olivier Ralph danbri dauwhe dauwhe_ fsasaki joined kazue_ ole shevski simonstey tzviya You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Got date from IRC log name: 28 Oct 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-ole-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]