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05:43:30 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
05:43:34 <Ralph> chair: Ira
05:44:08 <Ralph> Ira: there's been an ODRL CG
05:44:16 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/ ODRL CG
05:44:25 <Ralph> ... there's a draft charter-in-progress
05:45:21 <Ralph> -> http://w3c.github.io/ole/charter.html Open License Expression Working Group Charter (Draft)
05:45:52 <Ralph> Benedict Wittam Smith (Thomson Reuters): people want to be able to combine datasets
05:46:01 <Ralph> ... we need a solution to be able to do this at scale
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05:46:07 <Ralph> ... to know what permissions we have
05:46:26 <Ralph> ... we need a machine-readable language to know what permissions we have, what constraints exist
05:46:31 <Ralph> ... we also have a discoverability problej
05:46:50 <Ralph> ... if I mix a number of datasets, what can I do with the results?
05:46:53 <Ralph> s/lej/lem
05:47:15 <Ralph> DaveCramer (Hachette): the trade book industry has b2b exchange languages
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05:47:37 <Ralph> ... I think there's been an attempt to do something with rights in this area, don't know how well it's succeeded
05:47:58 <Ralph> TzviyaSeigman(Wiley): Wiley publishes professional textbooks and thousands of journals
05:48:08 <Ralph> ... Ben expressed the issues concisely
05:48:17 <Ralph> ... a lot of the licensing right now is in PDF or paper form
05:48:31 <Ralph> ... there's not a good way to express all the complexities of rights
05:48:58 <Ralph> ... if we translate a book to another language we need to express all the rights someone in that other country has
05:49:21 <Ralph> ... different regions, different languages, parts of books, with different provenance for components of the books
05:49:36 <Ralph> ... I represent Wiley in many industry organizations too, including W3C
05:49:47 <Ralph> ... in BISG who primarily represent trade publishers
05:50:13 <Ralph> ... BISG has a rights vocabulary which is currently a list of words
05:50:25 <Ralph> ... they would like to be able to feed this into a system
05:50:38 <Ralph> ... e.g. express "this book comes with a t-shirt"
05:50:54 <Ralph> ... BISG has a consensus vocabulary for US trade publishers
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05:51:09 <Ralph> IvanHerman: BIC plays a similar role in the UK
05:51:33 <Ralph> Ira: we need to identify a useful area of overlap
05:51:42 <Ralph> ... that will benefit a wide group of people
05:51:56 <Ralph> IvanHerman(W3C): I am the staff contact for the Digital Publishing Interest Group
05:52:15 <Ralph> ... we've had some contact with BISG while drafting the OLE charter
05:52:44 <Ralph> ... I also was active in Data on the Web for a long time and know that the expression of rights in data has been an interest for a long time
05:52:50 <Ralph> ... e.g. scientific data
05:53:07 <Ralph> ... need the rights attached to the data combined with the rights associated with the scientific publication
05:53:27 <Ralph> ... and then the rights attached to software; what cna we use, reuse, etc.
05:53:48 <Ralph> ... e.g. are you allowed to reuse [software] libraries
05:54:04 <Ralph> ... I think there are lots of commonalites in these three areas
05:54:22 <dauwhe> Ralph: I'm w3c staff as well
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05:54:36 <dauwhe> ... we want a common vocabulary around rights to help define scope
05:54:51 <dauwhe> ... I expect the participants will have diffferent connotations of common terms
05:54:57 <dauwhe> ... building a shared language
05:55:10 <dauwhe> ... that's one advantage of starting with ODRL
05:55:18 <dauwhe> ... then decide what changes we need
05:55:24 <dauwhe> ... but use ODRL definitions of terms
05:55:46 <Ralph> AxelPollares(Vienna): we've been monitoring the ODRL CG
05:55:53 <Ralph> ... our perspective comes from Open Data
05:56:03 <Ralph> ... integrating Open Data with different licenses and rights attached to the data
05:56:17 <Ralph> ... we're interested in mechanisms that allow automatic aligment or combination of the licenses
05:56:30 <Ralph> .. we'd like to at least partially automate the combination
05:56:38 <Ralph> s/.. /... /
05:56:59 <Ralph> ... we've looked at how far you can describe, for example, the CC licenses in ODRL
05:57:28 <Ralph> FelixSasaki(W3C&DFKI): I work in natural language processing, including machine translation
05:57:44 <Ralph> ... in this area usage of data is common; for training corpora, lexicons, ...
05:57:47 <AxelPolleres> s/AxelPollare/AxelPolleres/
05:58:04 <Ralph> ... these data sources have been de3veloped outside the Web and are being moved into the Web
05:58:31 <Ralph> ... looking at the European Data Portal you see the challenges of using open source corpora with in-house corpora
05:58:48 <Ralph> ... some corpora have portions that are free and portions that are not free
05:59:07 <Ralph> ... quality assurance processes can have a licensing aspect
05:59:28 <Ralph> ... also relates to having licenses in various (natural) languages
05:59:40 <Ralph> ... applying licenses to translation workflows
06:00:23 <Ralph> OlivierThereault(BBC): some of my colleagues have been in the ODRL CG
06:00:41 <Ralph> ... as well as the Linking Cultural Data CG
06:00:54 <fsasaki> s/nto the Web/nto the Web under the "brand" of linguistic linked data
06:00:56 <Ralph> ... BBC has a goal to help lots of cultural organizations expose their data on the Web
06:01:03 <Ralph> ... and licensing comes into this
06:01:20 <Ralph> Ira: are there different restrictions on different parts of different archives?
06:01:35 <Ralph> Olivier: it's complex; we have our own archives we want to expose
06:01:43 <Ralph> ... we also serve other groups' archives for them
06:01:50 <Ralph> ... so we are both a producer and consumer
06:02:01 <Ralph> @@: I am working on personal data stores
06:02:13 <Ralph> ... I want to attach a policy to my data to tell others what to do with my data
06:03:11 <Ralph> ... also, if people offer me terms and conditions for use of my data I want the software for my data store to be able to determine whether I want to use the data
06:03:16 <Ralph> s/@@/Kazue
06:03:37 <Ralph> DanBrickley(Google): Google is likely to be skeptical about the complexity of these systems to scale
06:03:51 <Ralph> ... e.g. even robots.txt is super-simple but it gets screwed up
06:04:05 <shevski> http://w3c.github.io/ole/charter.html
06:04:05 <Ralph> ... it would be amazing if we can do something more than robots.txt but I haven't seen it
06:04:24 <Ralph> topic: OLE draft charter
06:04:34 <Ralph> Ira: let's take a look at this charter
06:04:41 <Ralph> ... does it seem to have the right scope?
06:04:48 <Ralph> ... is there enough overlap?
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06:05:20 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer?
06:05:20 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-ole-irc#T06-05-20
06:05:23 <Ralph> Ivan: given a vocabulary, it can be serialized in several ways
06:05:52 <Ralph> ... what worries me is whether there can be an automatic system that merges two license expressions in any meaningful way
06:06:03 <Ralph> ... in the Semantic Web we have tried to come up with reasoning engines
06:06:13 <Ralph> ... some of these are deployed on an acceptable scale; e.g. OWL
06:06:30 <Ralph> ... some, like rule languages, have not been deployed on a significant scale
06:06:51 <Ralph> ... for those that have been deployed I am not sure of the size of the data they can reasonably handle
06:07:09 <Ralph> ... I would guess that these sizes are low relative to the needs of Thomson-Reuters
06:07:27 <Ralph> ... it may still be manageable at the level of rights on each component of a book
06:07:33 <Ralph> ... beyond that I am skeptical
06:07:44 <Ralph> ... does ODRL handle this?
06:07:56 <Ralph> ... what can we do in a Working Group without prior experience
06:08:11 <Ralph> Ben: we intend to run proofs of concept on scalability of content derivations
06:08:30 <Ralph> ... at the first level if we can jsut describe our licenses in a common language this is a huge step forward
06:08:44 <Ralph> ... the next level is to be able to trace through provenance what license belongs to a particular dataset
06:09:00 <Ralph> ... then we have the issue of whether we can automatically generate a policy when we combine datasets
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06:09:17 <Ralph> ... we may be able to use an inference engine to do this but it can also be done with a very simple rule engine
06:09:29 <Ralph> ... finally there's the issue of generating permissions for these combinations of contracts
06:09:51 <AxelPolleres> q+ to comment on “reasoning”
06:09:54 <Ralph> ... we might not use ODRL to do this; we might compile down to a more performant representation
06:10:27 <Ralph> Tzviya: my colleague says his dream world describes policy relationships
06:11:29 <Ralph> ... he thinks allowing the declaration of multiple policies on a resource would move the focus
06:11:44 <Ralph> ... he thinks some simple extensions to ODRL can accomplish this
06:11:45 <AxelPolleres> Are we talking about https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2-1/ ?
06:11:59 <Ralph> Ben: ODRL does have some strange directions in its relationships; these would be easy to swap
06:12:21 <Ralph> Axel: I wouldn't say that OWL or a specific rule dialect would necessarily be the right reasoning formalism
06:12:32 <danbri> ralph, the rrsagent logs seem to be empty
06:12:47 <Ralph> ... looking at the ODRL terms I see implicit connections
06:12:58 <Ralph> ... e.g. 'reproduce'
06:13:02 <Ralph> ... implies 'read'
06:13:24 <Ralph> ... some violations of combinability can be discovered with simple mechanism
06:13:37 <Ralph> ivan: I want to understand what this working group is aiming at
06:14:03 <Ralph> ... Ben noted a useful step one
06:14:10 <Ralph> ... is it resonable for this WG to do more than that?
06:14:19 <Ralph> ... if not, we should say so in the charter
06:14:58 <Ralph> ... if we intend to do a simple rules system this should be carefully scoped in the charter
06:15:13 <Ralph> ... there are limits to how far this might go; it may not scale
06:15:48 <Ralph> Ben: I don't think there's any prior art for combination of policies
06:15:52 <Ralph> ... there's some academic work
06:16:04 <Ralph> ... I think we will start getting answers over the next couple of months
06:16:40 <Ralph> Ivan: if there's no prior art then W3C might not want a Working Group to do fundamental research
06:16:54 <Ralph> ... we would exclude from the charter to standardize a specialized rule language
06:16:59 <Ralph> Axel: no one proposed that
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06:17:10 <Ralph> Ivan: the use cases require reasoning over data
06:17:13 <fsasaki> q+
06:17:26 <Ralph> ... we have to be clear that we won't solve this
06:17:30 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/ws-policy/
06:18:02 <Ralph> Felix: in Web Services Policy there's a way to combine service descriptions
06:18:06 <Ralph> ... there's no inferencing at all
06:18:10 <Ralph> ... this is widely deployed
06:18:12 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres: My goal would be at least to take https://www.w3.org/community/odrl/vocab/2-1/ and resolv, clarify disambiguation/semantics of the terms used in the vocabulary, but not standardizing some formalism to reason about it. I’t just about definint implicit relations among this terms and compatibility … along the lines what felix says.
06:18:19 <Ralph> Ben: derivation is intersection
06:18:26 <Ralph> Felix: it can be described as set operations
06:18:31 <Ralph> Axel: right
06:18:57 <danbri> see also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-policy/
06:19:04 <Ralph> Ira: it might be straightforward in some cases and not in others
06:19:15 <Ralph> Ivan: we should not promise that we would do these rules in this WG
06:19:33 <Ralph> Ira: in the open data space it would be useful to have a way to combine and make explicit machine-readable restrictions
06:19:44 <danbri> q+ to ask about ODRL standards
06:19:53 <fsasaki> q-
06:19:58 <Ralph> ... I think some of this should be in scope
06:20:04 <Ralph> Ivan: I'm playing devil's advocate
06:20:21 <Ralph> ... I propose that it should be out of scope for the OLE WG to do reasoning on the data
06:20:27 <Ralph> Axel: even set operations?
06:20:39 <Ralph> Ivan: we need to be slightly more flexible that than
06:21:05 <Ralph> ... I don't want us to get stuck in research
06:21:18 <Ralph> ... we've done that in the past and that's why I'm cautious
06:21:24 <Ralph> DanBri: ODRL has been around for 15 years
06:21:30 <fsasaki> ack dan
06:21:30 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about ODRL standards
06:21:36 <Ralph> ... what lessons have we learned from its deployment?
06:21:45 <Ralph> Ira: I asked that too
06:22:08 <Ralph> Ben: AP is using ODRL
06:22:16 <Ralph> ... describing wire photos
06:22:32 <Ralph> .. .photo editors go through lots of photographs looking at restrictions; geographic, etc.
06:22:42 <Ralph> ... AP is adding ODRL to allow the CMS to prefilter for the subeditor
06:22:56 <Ralph> ... this is saving a lot of time for the editors to check
06:23:34 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-metadata/
06:23:41 <Ralph> ... if we can automate 80% of this it will be a big advance
06:24:00 <Ralph> Ivan: the Digital Publishing IG published a Note on metadata in the publishing industry
06:24:04 <danbri> http://virtualgoods.org/2013/ reports the "9th W3C ODRL Community Group" meeting — there may be records from those events that can help
06:24:09 <Ralph> ... this was based on a series of interviews done by the IG
06:24:33 <Ralph> ... one thing came up
06:24:47 <Ralph> ... IDEAlliance is also working on rights expressions for magazines, based on ODRL
06:25:25 <Ralph> ... IPTC was involved
06:25:36 <Ralph> ... so ODRL wasn't done in a vacuum
06:25:50 <Ralph> Ben: "license" cuts the scope far too thin
06:25:57 <Ralph> ... that covers copyright
06:26:17 <Ralph> ... other things that concern use policy are privacy, @@
06:26:55 <Ralph> Olivier: could we do a first iteration that only does licensing?
06:27:04 <Ralph> ... and broaden to policy later
06:27:13 <Ralph> Alex: it's a terminology issue
06:27:24 <Ralph> ... starting with "license" might be harder to broaden alter
06:27:28 <Ralph> s/alter/later/
06:27:37 <Ralph> Ben: we're looking at this as a means to help us stay compliant
06:27:46 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
06:27:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-ole-minutes.html ivan
06:27:49 <Ralph> ... with data residency requirements and privacy requirements
06:27:59 <Ralph> ... we want a way to manage all these concerns
06:28:12 <Ralph> ... limiting to just license limits the value to us
06:28:39 <danbri> re ODRL see http://virtualgoods.org/2013/ODRL_2_0_Revisited_VirtualGoods2013.pdf "Improving ODRL" sections
06:28:45 <Ralph> Felix: I think we may not need an additional mechanism, just another use of the same mechanism
06:28:56 <Ralph> Ira: issues/next steps/concerns?
06:29:13 <Ralph> Ralph: who's willing to submit comments on this draft charter?
06:29:21 <Ralph> Tzviya: Wiley will submit some
06:29:36 <Ralph> Ben: Thomson will submit some too
06:30:50 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
06:30:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-ole-minutes.html ivan
06:31:03 <Ralph> Ira: public-ole-comment@w3.org
06:31:11 <Ralph> s/public/mailto:public/
06:31:37 <Ralph> Ira: end of November?
06:32:00 <Ralph> Ralph: we want to fix the charter with your comments *before* sending it for Member review
06:32:46 <Ralph> [adjourned]
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06:32:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-ole-minutes.html Ralph
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07:22:57 <Ralph> meeting: Machine-readable Rights OLE/ODRL - TPAC 2015 Breakout
07:23:16 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
07:23:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-ole-minutes.html Ralph
07:23:33 <Ralph> rrsagent, bey
07:23:33 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'bey', Ralph.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
07:23:35 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
07:23:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items