See also: IRC log
dom: could get better perf if
better interaction between network and application layers
... you also want more resilient interaction with the
network
... tensions between neutral network and will for
performance
... tensions between neutral network and will for
performance
... how can W3C help bridging that GAP between the 2
layers
... main goal of this session is to have an open discussion to
see if there is something W3C should do in this area
Natasha Rooney: report from the recent MaRNEW workshop and experience of networking Task Force in Web & Mobile IG
-> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/marnew/ MaRNEW workshop
natasha: 2 major reasons that
pose issues to operators
... management of network
... and politic area (regulation on censorship or legal
interceptions)
... at the workshop first session was around encryption
... next session talked about IETF work on deployment
considerations
... ubiquitous encryption
... propose some way to operators to improve without breaking
encryption
... another session was and trust models and user choice
presented by Wendy
... good statistics
... session 3 sending data up for network management
benefits
... session 4 is sending data down for network management
benefits
... network saying here is the current situation
... TCP was mentioned a lot we had a session dedicated to the
transport layer
... session on application layer optimization
... we needed an overview from content providers
... session 6 was on transport layer
... congestion control innovations
... output is a list of ideas
... willl be at IETF next week
... evolving TCP
... mobile throughput guidance
... one bit latency bw tradeoff
... (to see how many bits we need to classify traffic)
... blind caching
... encrypted content
... metrics for net statistics
... and also better collaboration as we have been working in
silo for a long time
mark: interesting idea was trust
verifying
... benefit of optimzation should be served between the network
and content providers
... second thing was about qos if you can trade latency
... so a time varying thing
tatsu NTT Communications
tatsu we are providing WebRTC on robots
scribe: have a demo booth
tatsu one option is to provide a hierarchy of model
tatsu webrtc P2P traffic, P2P doe not mean it is best approach, to provide better service for the user have to find best path
tatsu collaboration with web application and SDN
scribe: on W3C web things and
network things best architecture should be achieved thanks to
statistics
... capability for selecting best path
natasha: I like the skyway project
yoav: have you made any contribution to webrtc as part of this project ?
natasha: we started working on
data plan information API
... you can have info on usage of data
... how much traffic is being used if dedicated to a particular
application, info to users how much they have left on their
data monthly allowance
... Google-Fi network display this quite nicely
... providers are keen to work on this but their operations
team don't
... info good in some countries
... how could operators not leak too much info and still keep
the info relevant
... GSMA is interested in this again
... tell me if you are interested
frode: I'm an operator we don't
want to give this information away
... it is critical business information
yoav: it would be great if it would be obfuscate that data and make it available
mark: technical solutions that take human out of the loop are the way to go
cullen: most people with a 3GB plan are actually below that
yoav: when peopel are reaching their limit or if they have roaming cost the application could limit its data usage
jorg: I'm from DT and come from
Identity space, we need to give control to the user so that he
can make an informed decision, it becomes compelling if user
can buy the extra bw to use a given service
... network for dedicate wishes the user is the customer so
needs to be in the middle of the decision
... currently we are still trying to meant things trying to
optimize things when we can't
dom: having a 3 party negotiation between the network the service and the user
mark: our experience is that a solution that depends on teh user will liklely not work, we have an option to adjust bw usage in Netflix but users are not using it
yoav: app developpers are making
not always assumption, like are you on wifi ? meaning network
is free which is not always true
... need a communication channel for these metrics, what type
of network communicate, bw information even if not accurate,
communicate cost
... we need to get rid of assumptions and align it with metrics
that are meaningful for the user
frode: a solution could be to have this info inlined
MarkF: multiple applications seems there is a rule for the network to allocate resources
dom: one of the needed optimization, you want to avoid waking up the radio layer to save battery, I think you optimized it at Google
igrigorik: talking to the driver to get more detailed information, eg quality of the signal.
dom: app developpers should understand how to organize their data usage
igrigorik: an example is the search bar, it was slow when sending a small amount of data, solution was actually to send more data with empty data to make things faster
dom: is that something operators could expose ?
s/igrigorik/s/alia/igrigorik//
igrigorik: sometimes you have to prioritize some data even if it is a small amount of data
cullen: we know how to optimize apps need to do it for the web
martin: how is it different ?
mnot: we discussed this in HTTP
world
... we need some way to distinguish this on the wire especially
if it is encrypted
cullen: from an API point of view I wish we could do the optimization
igrigorik: we have some info in the browser to do some optimization
dom: are you saying the app developers don't need to know this ?
igrigorik: maybe it could be exposed
speaker6: could be dangerous everybody would say its high
dom: the browser could mediate
this
... fetch as a priority
igrigorik: currently its only a
placeholder
... I am curious of optimizations done by native apps
martin: webrtc can prioritize
streams 4 different options
... not yet implemented
... not worky in firefox for sure
... we take patches
cullen: native communication apps all tries to do optimizations
igrigorik: if those APIs exists browsers should be leveraging them
mnot: there i a new TCP Performance Tuning for HTTP draft from Daniel Stenberg on this topic
jorg: sounds we have a few approaches on solutions
<mnot> FYI, Daniel's draft: http://bagder.github.io/I-D/httpbis-tcp/
jorg: is it possible to have one abstraction for network providers to expose their capabilities
varun: @@@v
jorg: who could define what would be the requirements? thinking W3C should be the right place for this.
frode: I can almost guarantee operators will not adapt traffic based on this marks
cullen: I think you need to know how to trust this information, sample and trust is important
dom: close to the end of this session, do we have clear follow up we should identify
MarkF: @@
... also what should be exposed to developers
dom: is the tradeoff between latency and bandwith part of this ?
natasha: maybe we need to go ahead and do this MARnew workshop
dom: if you have ideas please
come to me
... last year we created a TF, if people wants to contribute
and revive it
... thank you all for attending
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/@@@/trust verifying/ Succeeded: s/@speaker2/frode/ Succeeded: s/speaker3/yoav/ Succeeded: s/speaker3/yoav/g Succeeded: s/ bw/, bw/ Succeeded: s/shoudl/should/ Succeeded: s/alia/igrigorik/ Succeeded: s/coudl/could/ WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/ilia/s/alia/igrigorik// Succeeded: s/ilia/igrigorik/ Succeeded: s/mitigate/mediate/ Succeeded: s/frode/jorg/ Succeeded: s/speaker4/jorg/ Succeeded: s/speaker7/MarkF/ Succeeded: s/ntt:/tatsu/g Succeeded: s/: multiple applications/MarkF: multiple applications/ Succeeded: s/ilia/igrigorik/ Succeeded: s/@@speaker:/yoav:/ Succeeded: s/do: tension;/dom: tensions/ Succeeded: s/@@@draft/Daniel Stenberg/ Succeeded: s/HTTP draft/TCP Performance Tuning for HTTP draft/ Succeeded: s/ ow / how / No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: vivien Inferring Scribes: vivien WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: MarkF cullen daisuke daisuke_ dom frode hiro igarashi igrigorik jeff jorg jxck kaoru kawaguch komasshu mark markw martin mfoltzgoogle mishizaw mnot natasha rbarnes schuki speaker6 varun yoav yudaiyamagishi yuwei_ You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Got date from IRC log name: 28 Oct 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]