01:43:59 RRSAgent has joined #network 01:43:59 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-irc 01:44:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:44:20 Meeting: Interacting with the Networking Layer 01:44:24 Chair: Dom 01:45:07 dom: could get better perf if better interaction between network and application layers 01:45:33 ... you also want more resilient interaction with the network 01:45:35 igarashi has joined #network 01:45:50 do: tension; between neutral network and will for performance 01:46:00 dom: tensions between neutral network and will for performance 01:46:09 markw has joined #network 01:46:12 yuwei_ has joined #network 01:46:19 ... how can W3C help bridging that GAP between the 2 layers 01:47:15 dom: main goal of this session is to have an open discussion to see if there is something W3C should do in this area 01:47:42 Topic: Dominique Hazael-Massieux: introduction to the needs and constraints of getting apps and networks to work together 01:48:08 Topic: Report from the recent MaRNEW workshop 01:48:10 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 01:48:16 komasshu has joined #network 01:48:21 Natasha Rooney: report from the recent MaRNEW workshop and experience of networking Task Force in Web & Mobile IG 01:48:58 -> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/marnew/ MaRNEW workshop 01:49:58 natasha: 2 major reasons that pose issues to operators 01:50:04 ... management of network 01:50:25 ... and politic area (regulation on censorship or legal interceptions) 01:51:37 natasha: at the workshop first session was around encryption 01:52:14 ... next session talked about IETF work on deployment considerations 01:52:30 ... ubiquitous encryption 01:53:02 ... propose some way to operators to improve without breaking encryption 01:53:22 daisuke has joined #network 01:53:27 natasha: another session was and trust models and user choice presented by Wendy 01:53:39 ... good statistics 01:54:17 natasha: session 3 sending data up for network management benefits 01:54:26 natasha: session 4 is sending data down for network management benefits 01:54:34 kawaguch has joined #network 01:54:50 natasha: network saying here is the current situation 01:55:18 ... TCP was mentioned a lot we had a session dedicated to the transport layer 01:55:56 natasha: session on application layer optimization 01:56:11 ... we needed an overview from content providers 01:56:49 natasha: session 6 was on transport layer 01:56:58 ... congestion control innovations 01:57:27 natasha: output is a list of ideas 01:57:41 ... willl be at IETF next week 01:57:57 ... evolving TCP 01:58:10 ... mobile throughput guidance 01:58:25 ... one bit latency bw tradeoff 01:58:40 ... (to see ow many bits we need to classify traffic) 01:58:46 ... blind caching 01:58:56 ... encrypted content 01:59:03 ... metrics for net statistics 01:59:30 ... and also better collaboration as we have been working in silo for a long time 02:00:23 mark: interesting idea was @@@ 02:00:46 ... benefit of optimzation should be served between the network and content providers 02:01:13 jeff has joined #network 02:01:45 ... second thing was about qos if you can trade latency 02:01:58 ... so a time varying thing 02:02:17 s/@@@/trust verifying/ 02:03:25 Topic: How is the network venue 02:03:56 ntt: NTT Communications 02:05:09 ntt: we are providing WebRTC on robots 02:05:24 ... have a demo booth 02:06:39 ntt: one option is to provide a hierarchy of model 02:08:21 ntt: webrtc P2P traffic, P2P doe not mean it is best approach, to provide better service for the user have to find best path 02:08:39 ntt: collaboration with web application and SDN 02:08:51 mishizaw has joined #network 02:09:22 ... on W3C web things and network things best architecture should be achieved thanks to statistics 02:09:51 ... capability for selecting best path 02:10:47 natasha: I like the skyway project 02:11:04 @@speaker: have you made any contribution to webrtc as part of this project ? 02:11:58 natasha: we started working on data plan information API 02:12:08 ... you can have info on usage of data 02:12:34 kaoru has joined #network 02:12:47 ... how much traffic is being used if dedicated to a particular application, info to users how much they have left on their data monthly allowance 02:13:07 jxck has joined #network 02:13:13 ... Google-Fi network display this quite nicely 02:13:37 yudaiyamagishi has joined #network 02:13:41 ... providers are keen to work on this but their operations team don't 02:13:53 mishizaw has joined #network 02:14:09 ... info good in some countries 02:14:36 ... how could operators not leak too much info and still keep the info relevant 02:14:57 ... GSMA is interested in this again 02:15:20 ... tell me if you are interested 02:15:20 q? 02:15:50 @speaker2: I'm an operator we don't want to give this information away 02:16:00 ... it is critical business information 02:16:15 s/@speaker2/frode 02:17:03 hiro has joined #network 02:17:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html hiro 02:17:49 speaker3: it would be great if it would be obfuscate that data and make it available 02:18:38 mark: technical solutions that take human out of the loop are the way to go 02:19:18 cullen: most people with a 3GB plan are actually below that 02:20:28 speaker3: when peopel are reaching their limit or if they have roaming cost the application could limit its data usage 02:21:59 speaker4: I'm from DT and come from Identity space, we need to give control to the user so that he can make an informed decision, it becomes compelling if user can buy the extra bw to use a given service 02:22:54 mishizaw has joined #network 02:23:02 ... network for dedicate wishes the user is the customer so needs to be in the middle of the decision 02:23:32 ... currently we are still trying to meant things trying to optimize things when we can't 02:24:03 dom: having a 3 party negotiation between the network the service and the user 02:24:33 yoav has joined #network 02:25:34 mark: our experience is that a solution that depends on teh user will liklely not work, we have an option to adjust bw usage in Netflix but users are not using it 02:26:27 s/speaker3/yoav/ 02:26:33 s/speaker3/yoav/g 02:27:18 yoav: app developpers are making not always assumption, like are you on wifi ? meaning network is free which is not always true 02:27:25 komasshu has joined #network 02:28:02 yoav: need a communication channel for these metrics, what type of network communicate bw information even if not accurate, communicate cost 02:28:17 s/ bw/, bw/ 02:28:59 yoav: we need to get rid of assumptions and align it with metrics that are meaningful for the user 02:30:03 frode: a solution could be to have this info inlined 02:30:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:30:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html kaoru 02:30:57 : multiple applications seems there is a rule for the network to allocate resources 02:31:26 daisuke_ has joined #network 02:31:59 dom: one of the needed optimization, you want to avoid waking up the radio layer to save battery, I think you optimized it at Google 02:32:48 ilia: talking to the driver to get more detailed information, eg quality of the signal. 02:33:09 dom: app developpers shoudl understand how to organize their data usage 02:34:11 alia: an example is the search bar, it was slow when sending a small amount of data, solution was actually to send more data with empty data to make things faster 02:34:15 s/shoudl/should/ 02:34:26 s/alia/igrigorik/ 02:34:27 dom: is that something operators coudl expose ? 02:34:39 s/coudl/could/ 02:34:43 s/ilia/s/alia/igrigorik// 02:34:51 s/ilia/igrigorik/ 02:35:43 igrigorik: sometimes you have to prioritize some data even if it is a small amount of data 02:36:59 cullen: we know how to optimize apps need to do it for the web 02:37:11 martin: how is it different ? 02:37:46 mnot: we discussed this in HTTP world 02:38:10 ... we need some way to distinguish this on the wire especially if it is encrypted 02:38:32 cullen: from an API point of view I wish we could do the optimization 02:39:18 igrigorik: we have some info in the browser to do some optimization 02:39:41 dom: are you saying the app developers don't need to know this ? 02:40:15 igrigorik: maybe it could be exposed 02:40:32 speaker6: could be dangerous everybody would say its high 02:40:55 dom: the browser could mitigate this 02:41:09 q? 02:41:59 s/mitigate/mediate 02:43:39 dom: fetch as a priority 02:43:52 igrigorik: currently its only a placeholder 02:44:15 igrigorik: I am curious of optimizations done by native apps 02:44:55 martin: webrtc can prioritize streams 4 different options 02:45:10 ... not yet implemented 02:45:27 ... not worky in firefox for sure 02:45:34 ... we take patches 02:46:12 cullen: native communication apps all tries to do optimizations 02:46:41 igrigorik: if those APIs exists browsers should be leveraging them 02:47:33 mnot: there i a new HTTP draft from @@@draft on this topic 02:47:55 frode: sounds we have a few approaches on solutions 02:48:31 mnot has joined #network 02:48:33 s/frode/jorg/ 02:48:41 FYI, Daniel's draft: http://bagder.github.io/I-D/httpbis-tcp/ 02:48:53 s/speaker4/jorg/ 02:49:33 jorg: is it possible to have one abstraction for network providers to expose their capabilities 02:50:46 varun: @@@v 02:51:28 jorg: who could define what would be the requirements? thinking W3C should be the right place for this. 02:52:05 frode: I can almost guarantee operators will not adapt traffic based on this marks 02:52:55 cullen: I think you need to know how to trust this information, sample and trust is important 02:54:12 dom: close to the end of this session, do we have clear follow up we should identify 02:54:25 speaker7: @@ 02:54:46 ... also what should be exposed to developers 02:55:01 rbarnes has joined #network 02:55:02 dom: is the tradeoff between latency and bandwith part of this ? 02:55:25 s/speaker7/MarkF/ 02:55:34 natasha: maybe we need to go ahead and do this MARnew workshop 02:55:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:55:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html yuwei_ 02:56:00 dom: if you have ideas please come to me 02:56:46 dom: last year we created a TF, if people wants to contribute and revive it 02:56:55 dom: thank you all for attending 02:56:59 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:56:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html vivien 02:57:36 jxck has joined #network 02:58:12 rbarnes has joined #network 02:58:58 s/ntt:/tatsu/g 02:59:29 s/: multiple applications/MarkF: multiple applications/ 02:59:42 s/ilia/igrigorik/ 02:59:59 komasshu has joined #network 03:00:06 s/@@speaker:/yoav:/ 03:00:36 s/do: tension;/dom: tensions/ 03:00:39 RRSAgent, draft minutes 03:00:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html vivien 03:01:56 s/@@@draft/Daniel Stenberg/ 03:02:11 s/HTTP draft/TCP Performance Tuning for HTTP draft/ 03:02:38 s/ ow / how / 03:02:49 RRSAgent, draft minutes 03:02:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-network-minutes.html vivien 03:47:53 komasshu has joined #network 04:06:19 jxck has joined #network 04:06:44 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 04:14:01 komasshu has joined #network 04:18:45 jxck has joined #network 04:23:58 yoav has joined #network 04:25:57 mnot has joined #network 04:28:39 rbarnes has joined #network 04:35:01 jxck has joined #network 04:37:16 jxck has joined #network 04:37:22 rbarnes has left #network 04:38:38 mishizaw has joined #network 04:46:31 fluffy has joined #network 04:52:39 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 04:53:35 mnot has left #network 05:08:30 yoav has joined #network 05:12:24 mishizaw has joined #network 05:38:58 mishizaw has joined #network 05:40:45 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 05:44:30 yoav has joined #network 05:46:59 komasshu has joined #network 06:03:30 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 06:24:36 mishizaw has joined #network 07:01:46 jxck has joined #network 07:03:04 mishizaw has joined #network 07:04:13 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 07:04:39 komasshu has joined #network 07:06:54 yoav has joined #network 07:10:16 fluffy has joined #network 07:53:29 komasshu has joined #network 07:57:38 mishizaw has joined #network 08:03:54 hiro has left #network 08:09:07 mishizaw has joined #network 08:15:56 mishizaw has joined #network 08:24:52 jxck has joined #network 08:59:28 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 09:22:04 komasshu has joined #network 09:29:17 komasshu has joined #network 10:57:27 komasshu has joined #network 11:46:19 komasshu has joined #network 13:23:51 mfoltzgoogle has joined #network 14:02:18 mishizaw has joined #network 14:30:30 mishizaw has joined #network 14:51:04 yoav has joined #network 15:31:40 mishizaw has joined #network 16:03:48 komasshu has joined #network 17:05:38 mishizaw has joined #network 18:06:41 mishizaw has joined #network 19:07:37 mishizaw has joined #network 21:09:20 mishizaw has joined #network 22:22:14 yoav has joined #network 22:31:35 mishizaw has joined #network 23:02:36 komasshu has joined #network 23:17:08 jxck has joined #network