See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 16 October 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
<richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
<fesch> chair: fesch
<fesch> scribe: fesch
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
reviewing AAM editor's notes
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
rs: we are reviewing editors notes
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html#exclude_elements
chaals: anyone know what happens when HTML is put into a desc
abr: so few browsers use the desc
rs: do the browsers parse them into a DOM - I don't know
<chaals> -> svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html A bunch of tests for what SVG accessibility actually works
chaals: you could put stuff in because it was XML , I was interested in this in 1999...
<AmeliaBR> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements
chaals: support the idea there
are things that you can't see and things in the DOM you can't
get to...
... making a test case for anchors...
<chaals> [For desc/title lets's make tests cases and find out what happens… feel free to put them in svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html ]
fe: there is a difference between hidden and not visible
abr: yes, want to make sure everyone can interact with it (not visible but interactive)
chaals: want Rich to take it up with core
discussing Note
The exception above is required because current best practice for fallback browser support is to use aria-labelledby and aria-describedby to redundantly link to title and desc child elements. These elements should only be used to generate the accessible name/description for the parent element. They should not be included as separate nodes in the tree.
<chaals> Example use case - can we include the content of svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/composed-tree-desc.html as an overall desc for svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/composed-tree.svg since the tree itself is pretty hard to understnd via screenreaders - and it is as simple a tree as you get.
<chaals> s|svg-access-w3c.github|http://svg-access-w3cg.github|G
fe: are you giving descriptive content to AT users and not non AT users
abr: yes
chaals: that is something like what we do in the Yandex browser
<richardschwerdtfeger> <desc xmlns:mydoc="http://example.org/mydoc">
<richardschwerdtfeger> <mydoc:title>This is an example SVG file</mydoc:title>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <mydoc:para>The global description uses markup from the
<richardschwerdtfeger> <mydoc:emph>mydoc</mydoc:emph> namespace.</mydoc:para>
<richardschwerdtfeger> </desc>
chaals: the key is switching to a foreign object
<chaals> I was planning on writing some tests for that...
chaals: bugs all across the board
for browser support of SVG...
... works with Chrome, yandex, bad in Firefox, Safari (without
voiceOver turned on)
ds: what we are doing here is writing a standard, so we shouldn't pay too much attention to what they are doing today, since we didn't tell them what to do
rs: we need to know what browsers are doing with desc
discussing Editor's Note
[Note 1] Issue 698: Need to address mappings when tabindex or aria relationships are applied to elements whose native host language semantics have a strict role="none". Typically these should not be mapped (elements are never rendered). However, tabindex is technically allowed on all elements even though authors are unlikely to do it.
abr: what if someone put tabindex on gradient or something that is never mapped?
rs: only elements that can be rendered (or whatever term) can be mapped
abr: so anything that can't be mapped - tabindex should be ignored
chaals: should go back to SVG group
rs: we had this discussion in SVG, want it like HTML
abr: HTML is weird but you can see...
chaals: lets go back to SVG and
tell them they got it wrong
... needs to be fixed in the spec
abr: we made it clear in the SVG spec that if you put a tabindex on it, the tabindex is ignored
rs: so note can go to text.
discussing: Editor's Note
[Note 2] Issue 699: Address role="none" mapping to concrete objects in some platforms. A role of "none" should not be mapped unless there is an error condition to avoid unnecessary growth of the accessibility tree.
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html#mapping_role_table
discussing Editor's Note
The "group" role is used in many cases as a generic container. There may be more appropriate mappings available in some platforms, which should be investigated. The proposed ARIA roles for graphics will replace some of these defaults.
abr: we have changed this a
little bit...
... can get rid of note because we are more specific in the
table
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
chaals: seems img did what we thought... nothing I found would let me explore inside an img
abr: difference between symbol role and img role is how it would be announced to the user
jw: j in the hierarchy symbol could be derived from the img role
<chaals> [I don't see that the use cases justify the difference suggested as a reason to have a symbol role different from the img role]
abr: in the mapping table - we have two basic types of notes - one about symbol and the other issue is text
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
abr: last week suggested we borrow the HTML mappings for text
we will replace groups with text on text, tspan and textPath
abr: may loose extra
content
... use case in HTML when you want something to be treated as
text, but in SVG we have
ds: tspan will be used less in
the future because SVG2 has text wrapping
... anyone that is adding extra description can add it...
<AmeliaBR> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#text
abr: HTML doesn't have roles for
stuff like paragraph
... no ARIA roles for paragraph and stuff like that
jw: could you map directly to system API's?
abr: we could tell them to do whatever they do for paragraph..
rs: pinging Joseph
abr, chaals: tspan is like HTML spans
chaals: use should not have the role of img
<chaals> [It is perfectly possible to have <tspan role="heading" aria-level-"2">head</tspan><tspan>the text that gets covered</tspan> ]
chaals: use should clone
... you can't explore the root, but should be like a shadow
DOM
abr: lots of issues
fe: is that an SVG level issue?
abr: it is both... tricky want to harmonize with shadow DOM, but that keeps changing - issue is not resolved
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s|-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html|svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html| FAILED: s|svg-access-w3c.github|http://svg-access-w3cg.github|G Succeeded: s/suggested/suggested as a reason to have a symbol role different from the img role/ Found Scribe: Rich Found Scribe: fesch Inferring ScribeNick: fesch Scribes: Rich, fesch Present: fesch AmeliaBR Rich_Schwerdtfeger shepazu chaals Found Date: 16 Oct 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]