See also: IRC log
<phila> Notes from the meeting
<phila> https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting#Structure
phila: notes that we're working
in plenary to write our report in note form at the address
above
... so there will be limited notes in the IRC channel from this
morning's session
<chunming> [discussion on principles]
<chunming> scribe: chunming
GB: be open, contributing
something distinctive to W3C/OGC WG
... No wheel reinvention. Something should be
deliverable/actionable, not an academic exercise
... minimum cost
jtandy: focusing on data sharing, not links between satallite and station.
Phil: [show HTML5 spec]
... overtime to produce a document.
... another example is Spatial data on the web use case &
req doc
... we have formal snapshot publicaitons
... this is a step of publishing a formal doc, WG could produce
any number of WD
... hope this group will have a kind of recommendation
... implement, test. we need at least two full impl for
everything
... when you can improve that, comments and answers, people
satisfied with the feedback
... when prove that, we could call director, to push WD to Last
Call (we have evidence, impl, we done)
... then we need to push to W3C membership, as well as OGC
jtandy: there is a e-vote process
at OGC
... simple majority
phlia: similar process in
w3c.
... then we had a recommendation, OGC call standards.
... if ISO wants to, it could take our results.
phila: the doc are copyright in
w3c's 4 hosts, and OGC
... we have strict site policy, use for free, and make sure
there are no patent issue in the document
... that's the process.
jianhui: each member from diff organization join the group, how to show the contributions in spec?
phila: you can join in represents
you yourself, or your organization.
... but the organization make the decision on IPR issue.
[moving to Issues section ] https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting#Issues
scribe: how do you describe
coverage data
... how do we use the geospatial data
... in term of access, discovery is important
... the schema.org, if you want to be discoveryed
jtandy: schema.org and W3C have
overlapping membership
... http://schema.org
... Schema.org is a collaborative, community activity with a
mission to create, maintain, and promote schemas for structured
data on the Internet, on web pages, in email messages, and
beyond.
... inacurate metadata, and in-complete metadata is harmful for
search engine
... schema.org makes you to provide more metadata
... so search engine will get more infor from your page, that's
the incent
... therefore, if you want your data to be found, you could use
schema.org
... i do agree the idea.
phila: schema.org is extensible,
we can extend it.
... we could discuss in w3c community group.
... you can provide extensions based on proofing the needs
phlia: need to access a subset,
slices
... then we need to represent the data
... RDF data cube, csv, geotiff, and other ways
... number of choices
MaikRiechert: is datacube support ordered data
phila: yes. it does.
jtandy: you may think of using data cube to describe data slices, or any of format like geotiff.
jianhui: how to use RDF to
describe data gradularity?
... we can use rdf to describe some slices
... then it will be useful, but if we describe data in detail,
we need to cut big data into slices
phlia: slices as images?
jianhui: yes
phila: geospatial data could be
described as linked data
... a wikipage: well-known_text
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text
Well-known text (WKT) is a text markup language for representing vector geometry objects on a map, spatial reference systems of spatial objects and transformations between spatial reference systems.
<jtandy> (the RDF Data Cube could be used to describe the structure of a multi-dimensional dataset, 2d slices of this dataset could be encoded as imagery, e.g. GeoTIFF, that are referenced from the Data Cube description ... I called this a hybrid approach)
jtandy: APIs?
GB: the possibility of doing test?
<jtandy> (the hybrid approach suggested above needs to be verified ... I've not seen this used in practice)
MaikRiechert: for MELODIES,
@@@
... if you define RDF describing coverge data
... for MELODIES, for small subsets of data, it is ok
... but if we talk about big data, what's the users of the RDF
data?
... even if we just expose it like that, it is still in big
size.
phila: one test would be, is it
ok for a big data subset to do that?
... would need a usecase like this.
MaikRiechert: there would be a
query like , giving a tempreture, and get back of all the
points with the temprature, it would be a large datasets (as
result datasets).
... it depends how you use the data
... we could do statistics, i don't ever find a view on using
that.
... that's my concern/
jtandy: are people taking
satallite data as a big set, and processing it locally to
provide services?
... this is interesting, not providing a coverage data to
browser to show something, but tell me the possible coverages
under a condition.
MaikRiechert: some need server
processing
... but not only server processing, there're cases to integrate
different data (coverage data, measure data) and calculate not
in server.
<phila> ACTION: PhilA to ask BillR about potential use cases for subsets of a coverage [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-ceo-ld-minutes.html#action01]
jtandy: there are js implentations, you have a online software agent, you may expose other services. you have a coverage space, the API could use coverage data, may query to other dataset relevant.
<phila> meeting; CEO-LD Kick off day 2
phila: we need usecases you will
happy with :-)
... the possible tests.
MaikRiechert: observe property, @@@
phila: but you don't do it in the browser, you do it in serverside
MaikRiechert: think about
Json-LD
... describe lots of things you don't need
jtandy: there are subset of
cases, we use code coverage data in the format.
... we need discovery what in the coverage
... and in some of cases, we need to download the dataset and
handle that.
MaikRiechert: for MELODIES
project, scientist may just download the datasets.
... then may link to some apis not in RDF form.
phila: need to find @@ to have an
example.
... scalability, is another issue.
<phila> https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=56866
phila: open search geo and time extensions (from OGC)
jtandy: in terms of coverage,you need the query related to a area( 2d geo extension)
<phila> jtandy: Geo temporal Open Search only works in 2D. but there's an overlap in terms of what it returns
phila: that looks like a potential start point for this. (simple query)
jtandy: if we get more layers, 2d
geo extension is not enough. need to be extended
... rfc 7111
<phila> RFC 7111
URI Fragment Identifiers for the text/csv Media Type
These fragment identifiers make it possible to refer to parts of a text/csv MIME entity identified by row, column, or cell. Fragment identification can use single items or ranges.
<phila> http://example.com/data.csv#row=5-7
jtandy: this could help you refer to part of the data
<phila> Again, that's only 2D, i.e. a single table
MaikRiechert: how about the subset in native coordinates
chunming: this goes back to the balancing between serverside and browser
jtandy: lots of the geospatial data services provide this kind of complex mappings (into native coordinates).
Adina: the image come from
satellite is just pixels
... the processing will choose which coordinates will be
used
<chunming_> jtandy: CEO-LD should provide a view on Issue-28 - whether SDW WG should define a default CRS
<chunming_> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/28
jtandy: what you heard of people using the data
<phila> GB: Pitches idea of gamification of coverages usage
<scribe> scribe: phila
Adina: Talked about software
packages they use.
... ESRI has an image handling group within ArcGIS
... There are others and several open source options
... Commercial missions are chagning from brining the data to
the people to bringing the people to the data. Creative
environments whetre you can access the data, play with it and
do stuff there.
... And you start paying when you have created your
product.
... That's a trend aming the commercial services
<scribe> scribe: phila
Adina: ENVI and PCI are the otehr
commercial packages we tend to use
... There's one called Cloud EO funded by Russia
... different packages for different types of data (radar,
imagery)
<scribe> ACTION: Adina to provide list of relevant software packages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-ceo-ld-minutes.html#action02]
<jtandy> scribe: Jeremy Tandy
<jtandy> scribenick: jtandy
phila: We need to talk
about
... i) creating impact in china
... ii) the capacity of this group
... iii) TPAC in Sapporo
... iv) our next F2F in Beijing
... can chunming talk about the F2F meeting
chunming: one constraint is to hold before the W3C Advisory Committee meeting
[discussion]: concludes week of 29 Feb?
Denise: notes that mid-March is bad for OGC- TC meeting in Washington and World Bank Land & Poverty conference
phila: China is 'closed' (more of less) for the Spring Festival (?)
<chunming> Spring Festival Feb 8.
jianhui: Spring Festival is early next year
[discussion] concludes that w/c 22 Feb is workable
(general agreement)
<chunming> plan 1: Feb 22-23, 2016
Denise: can we avoid 24 Feb please
<chunming> plan 2: Feb 25-26, 2016
phila: (looks at his diary) ...
Denise: that week is Mobile World
Congress
... can we go back to w/c 29Feb?
GB: early that week please
... RDA plenary is 1-3 March in Japan
phila: so - 2-day meeting in Beihang University, Monday 29 Feb, Tue 1 March
GB: are we prevented from meeting on Sunday?
jianhui: good to avoid the RDA conference
phila: Sunday 28- Monday
29th
... then people can leave to go RDA plenary (in Tokyo)
Denise: (looks online) and notes that RDA starts on 29th
phila: RDA and CEO-LD together makes for easier travel request
RESOLUTION: next F2F meeting Sunday 28-Monday 29 Feb, hosted by Beihang University
phila: asks Jianhui if he can attend TPAC?
jianhui: not enough time to get visa
<chunming> TPAC 2015: http://www.chinaw3c.org/member-meetings.html#tpac
jianhui: because previous meeting in Paris (?)
phila: (describes TPAC)
... 2-day working group + 1-day plenary + 2-day working
group
<chunming> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/Overview.html
Spatial Data on the Web meets on the monday and tuesday
phila: SDW will spend (at least)
half day on the coverages deliverable
... you can attend other groups too as observer
... it's not free; USD85/day
... travel is not funded by CEO-LD
... so it will be expensive
... If you are going, please book _NOW_ as hotels prices will
increase very soon
... W3C Members meet 2x per year ... at TPAC and at the
Advisory Committee (AC)
... Working Groups meet as often as they need
jianhui: If you're an AC member do you still have to pay
phila: yes - W3C is not a rich
organisation
... next year TPAC is in Lisbon, Portugal
jianhui: can we invite more participants?
phila: yes - subject to OGC &
W3C membership criteria
... the budget is constrained
GB: the current budget covers four attendees from UK ... but I'd be surprised if we are limited to four in reality
phila: Next sub-topic ... how do
we increase the impact of this work in China
... we have a small amount of time and money to make
progress
... but what next?
... we've talked today about Gamification, commercial interest
[and GEO etc.]
... but how does this work in China?
chunming: we could have a local
meeting in China once we return to introduce more people to
these topics
... we can identify other people to get involved
... and introduce them into the meetings
jianhui: impact? do you mean funding agencies?
phila: in time, yes ... but the
UK Foreign Office want to increase collaboration between UK and
China
... in this case focused on exploitation (?) of satellite
data
<chunming> Guo Huadong
jianhui: cites a potential contact
<chunming> general director of RADI
(see above)
<chunming> Li Wei (former president of Beihang University)
GB: lists other people who he
knows who could be influential
... there are 4 or 5 people at an influential level in CAS and
Universities who we can engage
... once we have a plan in plain english
... we can think about developing the rhetoric about this
project
... stating the benefits- including economic
jianhui: can we make a high-level haf-day work shop in Beijing ahead of the F2F meeting?
GB: could we get president of CAS to host such a meeting?
jianhui: on return to Beijing, I will need to coordinate head of CAS, as well as Ministry of Science & Technology (MOST)
Denise: from government side, who
are the key people to engage?
... notes that UN GGIM is co-chaired by China ... would be good
ensure that we coordinate there
... and by Government I really mean Public Service
... GGIM has regional groups ... see GGIM AP (regional group
for Asia Pacific)
... that would be the group to engage with in China
Adina: 21AT is a company in China that would be worth engaging (21st Century Aerospace Technology)
GB: Invitation letters are best issued from CODATA
phila: From the chinese office CODATA?
GB: likely from Simon H
... the key is that this is not just a show case- but an
awareness exercise requesting support
<phila> jtandy: We (met Office) has extensive relations with Chinese met office and CAS etc.
<phila> ... I'm not involved with them but I know the colleagues who are
<phila> ... Newton project (coordinated by Royal Society?)
<phila> ... Working on science expertise, not technology expertise
<phila> ... I note that there are (political) constraints on exchange of tech expertise
phila: so we have a long list of people to invite- but, right now, no strong reason for their attendance
GB: so the sequence is:
... 1) get our report out - including the high level
message
... 2) use that as the basis for engaging high-level invitees
from China
jianhui: then we can organise the first half-day event
chunming: how do the half-day and two-day events relate?
GB: the half-day event happens
first
... best to have them in the same location
... [for continuity]
Phila: moves onto the next
subtopic
... what will we have achieved by the F2F meeting in Feb?
... all this group is chartered to do is to write a document as
input to SDW
... we need to keep expectations low
... but we also have an offer from Maik to build something
tangible
GB: what could be built?
MaikRiechert: depends on alignment with MELODIES
phila: so what are you building for MELODIES?
MaikRiechert: lists a few things
... WCS-like APIs, JSON-encoding, harmonising the coverage
metadata
... [...]
phila: Thinking of Catalogues [...] using an OGC CSW, do you have one page per dataset?
MaikRiechert: we want to use DCAT in MELODIES - setting up a CKAN instance that uses the GeoDCAT and RDF capabilities
phila: that alone makes the data more discoverable - answering Adina's primary concern
MaikRiechert: yes- that's a minimum that we need
phila: so- we're limited by time (Feb 2016)
GB: the key concern is to
communicate why we're doing [this]
... we need to focus on [where the value is] to people remote
from us rather than impressing ourselves
... is it right that this work will also enhance MELODIES?
MaikRiechert: yes
phila: and this will be good for the MELODIES product to increase impact
MaikRiecherdt: I can do the
catalogue stuff
... when the metadata is ingested into the catalogue it needs
to link to the data
... describing the API or media type etc. for the data
... I want to use a new feature of CKAN to provide a "preview"
of the data
... in the catalogue
... This is realistic by February
The question of how to represent the data is a bit more tricky
MaikReicherdt: The question of how to represent the data is a bit more tricky
phila: In semantic web you can
refer to stuff that doesn't exist ... you can talk about
subsets even if you can't [directly] access the subset
resource
... asks Jitao if he has capacity to write the document for
CEO-LD
... and then to incorporate that into the Coverages deliverable
for the SDW WG
... we want to get an advance draft of that document by end
March
... we have to be able to show something;
... the best way is to show the CEO-LD output doc, and then how
this is used in the broader SDW deliverable
jitao: indicates that he has capacity as a co-editor to work on this document
phila: we may be able to get
another editor (a third one) if the need arises
... logistics? do we need telecos?
GB: email until the need for a telco arises
[general agreement]
<phila> Mailing list
phila: I have set up a group
mailing list - but this has not been used yet
... everyone is on the list - except Adina ... would you like
to be?
Adina: yes please- with caveat that it won't be a massive engagement
phila: notes that the list is
publically visible
... you can get to this email list via the wiki
[Phila spams everyone with a test email]
[oops- mailing list needs some work]
<scribe> ACTION: phila to add everyone to the mailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-ceo-ld-minutes.html#action03]
phila: any other tasks?
GB: yes- to get a feel for
ongoing funding [...]
... earlier this year the responses to this proposal were
enthusiastic, now I think they would be even more enthusiastic
because we have something more tangible
... this is based on the report from this meeting
<phila> jtandy: We need to focus on... on the kick off meeting list
https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting#Report
<phila> ... I'm looking under the structure section, item 3
<phila> ... identifiers for datasets and distributions
<phila> ... we need to recognise that that best practice is being defined elsewhere (DWBP)
<phila> ... however, we do need to make some recommendations about how to identify slices, subsets,samples etc.
<phila> ... How to refer to those
<phila> s,samples/, samples/
<phila> jtandy: We want to be able to talk about parts of the whole thing
<phila> ... How to discover the dataset - relates to what metadata is needed for that coverage
<phila> ... Maik will be building a catalogue based on CKAN that will eat some GeoDCAT that might be helpdul for describing the structure of hte coverage
<phila> MaikRiechert: Our dataset is not a coverage, it's a lot of coverages
<phila> ... we don't describe the metadata of an individual coveage with the same things as the collection
<phila> ... we don't include the structure
<phila> jtandy: I think we are going to need to make a recommendation on what structural metadata shoujld be provided
<phila> ... Once we've defined that, we need to determine how we're going to test that. if not MELODIES< who?
<phila> ... what is useful for coverage data?
<phila> MaikRiechert: If there's a rec from this group, how to represent metadata of a coverage, then if it's useful we'll do it in MELODIES
<phila> ... What you search for in our CKAN instance will be the higehr level groupings, not the individual coverages
<phila> jtandy: So there may be a follow on piece of work for once you;ve discovered the dataset, you can browse to an individual coverage and find out more about that.
<phila> MaikRiechert: The thing that's missing is how do you describe the links between coverages
<phila> ... If you model GeoTIFF as a coverage,
<phila> ... how do you link that to your collection of... in a searchable way
<phila> jtandy: Does that fit within the MELODIES project?
<phila> scribe: phila
MaikRiechert: Not completely sure
<scribe> ACTION: Maik to work with MELODIES partners to spec out what can be produced and hwo it fits in with CEO-LD [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-ceo-ld-minutes.html#action04]
MaikRiechert: If the metadata is right, it should just work. (Famous last words)
jtandy: rather than the metadata,
the coverage data itself - I think that we should provide a rec
on the Web-friendly formats that you can use to encode coverage
and when their use is sensible
... We have had a long discussion when it is not sensible to
use JSON arrays for coverage data (it's too big). Do we think
we need to provide guidance on the non-Web-friendly
formats
... things that can't be used in a browser or other use
agent
MaikRiechert: Just say that they exist
jtandy: Maybe we should have a
list of common formats that we see
... I think it would be interesting to do some work on using
PROV-O to describe the processing that has been done to create
the coverage
... As far back as the public data allows
Adina: You can usually have a block diagram of the steps used
jtandy: That's likely to be
useful
... we also need examples of how to describe the observation
context, the observation platform etc. For that we need to
Semantic Sensor Network vocab formalised
... We can't start on this until SSN is under way
... we Talked about using the data Quality Vocabulary
-> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-dqg.html data Quality Vocabulary
MaikRiechert: In CHARME they use
Open Annotation Ontology
... Not sure how they refer to a subset of a dataset
... Sounds like a good use case to me
-> http://www.w3.org/annotation/ Web Annotation WG
jtandy: Last thing on the list...
what APIs should look like for working with coverage data,
especially for the non-expert user. e.g. get stuff by
goemapping, by time, by observed property
... We could start by looking at what access patterns people
are using.
... One of the themes in the SDW BP is exposing data through
APIs and how to do that so we can wait for the broader group to
make some recommendations
... SO we can pick off things we can start now without trying
to do everything. So for now we should talk about:
- The metadata for describing a coverage structure
- metadata for it
MaikRiechert: That's what you'll index
jtandy: And understand how tools
will use that to heklp people understand what the coverage
contains
... The other one we can progress with immediately is how to
identify a subset of a coverage (slice, cell, region)
... If we can do that then we can add value straight away
... That covers SSTL's priority for example
MaikRiechert: Can you have a DCAT dataset that contains other datasets
jtandy: VOID has a subset
relationship
... Those are tangible things that we can deliver
MaikRiechert: Is there a definition of a coverage/ Can you have multiple range sets
jtandy: Yes
phila: If we send a mail to the
ML asking a question, who is going to answer.
... Asks for Chinese input
chunming: I think we can choose
some of the platforms or projects to link to this
... Find use cases and issues
MaikRiechert: How much do you use ontologies and RDF in generally
jianhui: We use them but we don't
generally define them
... We use RDF to handle genomic data but not geospatial
... It's possible that when I get back, my colleague in charge
of system development can maybe work with Maik and do some
demonstrations withy you
MaikRiechert: Yes, we're just experimenting with smeantics etc.
Meeting adjourned
<scribe> meeting: CEO-LD Face to face Day 2