See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 17 September 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0108.html
<MichaelC> +Matt
<scribe> scribe: fesch
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0167.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0108.html
Topic Issue 633
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0167.html
Action-1724
<trackbot> Action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724
mk: have a branch for grids but
have a syntax error, so missing headers
... go to grid...
... I rearranged and streamlined the description of grid,
making it broader, so it is broader than tabular data
... made a basic change to the summary, second paragraph
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html
rs: there are some redundant
text
... why do we need to call out the grid role here? It should be
inherited
mk: look at the however...
rs: why to we have treegrid mentioned in grid?
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#grid
mk: I thought I got rid of all the erroneous mentions of treegrid
js: : I don't see treegrid in Matt's branch
jd: grid is messed up
mk: I tried to fix it all
... the screen reader developers mostly today don't support
captioning table with labelby
... it is new in aira 1.1 to label a table this way... if you
were building a table role you wouldn't have a caption
rs: summary was deleated
... If you want to have a visual caption, you could say you
provide an aria-labeledby
... what you are saying is, if you built it on a table with a
caption you would get it for free
mk: if you built a grid off a table and the table had a caption, I am assuming it (the caption) would be a label on the grid
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-caption
rs: because HTML and ARIA have so
much overlap we should have joint testing
... I think there is a problem as there is no relationship,
js: mostly it is exposed at
text...
... labeledby property is on the table
rs: so it is OK
mk: I added to be keyboard
accessible the author should control focus
... added users navigating, that the elements that receive
focus should be gridcells
js: sounds like it is right out of APG
rs: do we talk about owned elements?
mk: no nothing specific
rs: that was really important
js: yes, it is in there
mk: yes I clarified it
... I added rowheader and columnheader, to be clear
rs: para with accessible name -
need changes ...
... want to address caption issue
... common ways to provide captions are labeledby and...
... are people happy with the rest of that text?
js: I see aria-owns from the characteristic table
mk: that is not intentional
rs: missing inherited properties...
mk: editing error causing respec to fail
js: need to read final version
mk: discusses grid text, rewrote readonly part
rs: I think we need to mention gridcell and cell could be used interchangeably (synonyms)
mk: I thought one was a descendent of the other
rs: I thought the group wanted to go to cell
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-aria-minutes.html
discussion of minutes...
mk: wrote two paragraphs about
readonly... discussion
... hopefully the readonly paragraphs will help screen reader
develops...
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-td
js: the current mapping for td is
gridcell
... td and th are mapped to gridcell
... might be HTML has not caught up to us (don't have cell)
rs: we need to open an action against the mapping spec.
js: probably want to say if a td is in a grid map it to gridcell if in a table map to cell
mk: in UIA won't gridcell and cell map to the same thing?
cyn: we have a table pattern and a grid pattern
rs: what about th?
js: reads mapping spec on th
rs: will send a note on tds
... change the captions
mk: did you read the readonly?
rs: yes that is OK
Action-1725
<trackbot> Action-1725 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal for an article feed -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
<clown> User Agents MUST implicitly propagate the value of readonly set on a grid element to all its owned gridcell elements and expose the value in the accessibility API.
js: get rid of implicitly
mk: yes OK
<jemmajaeunku> +present JaeunJemmaKu
<clown> action-1725
<trackbot> action-1725 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal for an article feed -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#itemfeed
mc: describes concept
rs: so you want stuff put on either end of the list?
mc: yes
rs: couple of questions - Is that a SHOULD?
js: capitalize the word to get the styling
rs: are people happy giving this
much guidance to AT?
... if you want to do that, then bring in AT vendors
mk: I am talking to Freedom and another vender....
rs: you have an exact host
language attribute you want authors to use (tabindex)
... we are looking at alternative keyboard navigation for later
SVG
mk: say why they should be focusable that way and not some other way
js: what if the person is using activedesendent?
mk: it is not a widget
fe: what if someone hides something
mk: we want them to play
nice
... if you have a user initiated action, we don't care about
that
... only infinite scroll
rs: you want to have interactive lists,
mk: yes, will add
rs: what happens if you drill down into a list item
mc: if you are non screen reader user and using this element, this contract doesn't do anything for you...
rs: are you going to make a authoring practice for it?
mk: this doesn't prescribe how
this is done
... this element is a structure not a widget
rs: if I put a link in the list item, what about putting a list in a list item, will that confuse you?
mk: no, the only time the screen
reader user cares about when you navigate through a focusable
item...
... doesn't matter what is in a listitem
rs: you could have a feed within a feed
mk: you could something like that, I don't think it would be a problem
rs: may want to know when you
have a feed within a feed you should put labels on them
... any reason we don't call it a feed?
mk: we have another role, where
the children inside are article so you can label and give a
description in the item, so the description is what a screen
reader should hear when scrolling through the list
... this one could be feed and the other is an articlefeed
rs: I don't think you one to be a subclass of the other, they should be a subclass of list
mk: I thought I would be able to
simplify them as a child
... I don't have a strong preference whether they are siblings
or descendents
rs: I would make them siblings
mk: big TODO is to define the prepends and postpends ...
<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-relevant
js: wondering anything to do with
aria-relevant?
... aria-relevant is all about additions and removals
mk: could be doing both additions
and removals in the same action
... the screen reader doesn't have a signal
js: aria-relevent can do both additions and removals at the same time - all
jd: do you need of index of where it is?
mk: can represent all actions
with sighed values
... so if a screen reader developer wanted to reveal that
information, it would be very easy
jd: do you have a screen reader vendor that wants to know addition, subtraction and position?
mk: confusing example of adding
and subtracting at the same time, but pretty easy to figure out
where you are
... important thing is when aria-busy, that the screen reader
not loose where they are
... user might be moving quickly through the list
jd: Orca does not use the virtual buffer....
<Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask about the relevance of aria-relevant
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/treegrid is messed up/grid is messed up/ Found Scribe: fesch Inferring ScribeNick: fesch WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. Present: Joanmarie_Diggs fesch janina Rich_Schwerdtfeger MichaelC Joseph_Scheuhammer Bryan_Garaventa Michiel_Bijl Found Date: 17 Sep 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/17-aria-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]