Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

10 Sep 2015

See also: IRC log


Alan, David, Detlev, Jan, jeanne, Kathy, Kim, Marc


<trackbot> Date: 10 September 2015

<Kim> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

<scribe> scribe: Jan

2. Discussion of David’s Success Criteria

1. Questions on techniques in progress

KP: Anything?

Kathy: Have people been working on techs?
... No?
... When will we have something we can show?
... Really important to be working on techs as well as success criteria
... People are really anxious to get some info

Detlev: Do we have an overview to remind us?

Kathy: Wiki page with current status

<Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments

<Kim> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments

Kathy: Focussing on "Proposed Mobile Techniques"

Detlev: Have ready for review been reviewed?

Kathy: Yes in previous meetings...there were comments... we need to look up in minutes

Alan: I've been working on 007...I need to add to page?

Kathy: Yes
... Let me know if you have questions

2. Discussion of David’s Success Criteria

<Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

Kathy: Continuing to discuss touch accessibility
... Started talking about challenges
... David put in some of the discussion
... Some of this is more usability
... So....what can we actually require under an SC
... Our goal is to continue developing this out as an extension... think about this as an extension for mobile
... Given last week's discussion...what can we require.

DM: I don't think we'll be able to say: All functionality available via touch.
... I think we can say: Anything that is touch functional can be accessed with touch with assistive tech turned on

<Kim> Jan: when you say assistive technology, thinking voiceover, but there are others. Isn't it up to the OS developers not to interfere. One finger left swipe, is it up to them to support that pass through?

DM: Well there is default touch gestures...then there are custom things...may require separate techs
... We have to get more granular.
... I have some app developer contacts
... There are a bunch of default gestures that are intercepted by VO...
... Swipe own one finger.... replaced by three finger swipe down
... Must make sure replaced gestures are not broken
... Custom gestures are more complicated... pass through gestures on some platforms.... but to be honest its above my pay grade.

Detlev: Whats pass through?

DM: You make one gesture that puts AT in mode that passes the next command directly to the app
... We need to get everyone together to figure this out

Alan: 007 discusses this...but because the devices are touch specific not sure why we need this

DM: You are saying almost what I'm saying
... What we do need to ensure is that all the touch stuff that works without AT then meets with AT

kathy: We're focussing on VO, etc. but what about all users... voice users.

DM: Just to be clear, I'm saying that IF you use touch, then it has to work with AT on.
... I think you're saying all things need to be touch accesible...

<jeanne> Custom touch and gestures must also work with assistive technology.

Kathy: No, I'm just saying you and Alan have different points

DM: If we can get the concept together....
... I know Gregg is concerned about new SCs...
... I think we have a hole in WCAG

<jeanne> UAAG use case: User agents and operating systems must provide a mechanism to allow assistive technology touch users to access custom gestures.

<Kim> Jan: the whole was the size of targets – there are people using head mouse, becomes more of an issue on a small screen

<jeanne> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

DM: Accessibility support... has to work with at least one combination...

Kathy: JRs comment is valid, WCAG SCs don't mention assistive tech directly
... UAAG also comes into this

DM: I'm always thinking about devs
... GV said basically the same as JR
... I proposed a rewrite.... 2.5.4 Touch: For pages and applications that support touch, all functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology activated.
... JR is right that WCAG doesn't usually word things this way...BUT we do require it work with a stack..and most natural stack to use is the builtin AT

JR: We seem to have bitten off a big peice...is there something smaller we can nail down

Kathy: What about touch target size?

JR: And I think it could be an SC

DM: I want to touch back on GL wording

<jeanne> +1 for Guideline language

DM: Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch functionality (Understanding)

JR: I'd be OK with that if it included Pointer

Detlev: I originally said: Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: All functionality available via touch.
... Think about web app that says to do this function, press F12...may not work on mobile.
... Couldn't you say that everything should be operable by touch or virtual keyboard.

JR: That would be broken for all users, not just those with disabilities

DM: Usability, not accessibility.

Detlev: OK with modified form

DM: Touch and pointer

Kathy: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality.

<Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29&action=edit&section=2

Kathy: Proposes "Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document

Alan: Is pointer too definitive

DM: HTML extension "Pointer options"

Alan: OK
... Voice?

DM: Can move pointer with voice

Proposed Resolution: Agreement on "Guideline 2.5: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document

<David> http://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/

Kim: Yes, you can move pointer with voice, but not very efficient.

<David> mousegrid

DM: Voice will mostly go after the keyboard
... We already have keyboard accessibility...its not going anywhere

kathy: Maybe there will be another guideline re: Speech
... to make sure that's covered

Kim: Other thing...
... We talked about not anticipating VO..what are we missing?

Kathy: Lets talk after

Resolution: Agreement on "Guideline 2.5: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document

Kim: In all of this, what's next? Force touch?

JR: Think we should discuss, this is a great place for it

Alan: Wearables, rotating dials?
... Gear S2...rotate face of watch...

Kim: Styluses as well

Alan: I use one on Galaxy Note 4

<David> good now detlev

Kim: Speech is being used in different ways

DM: re: Force Touch: Some people can't tell light vs. Hard

JR: AssistiveTouch remaps things

Kim: What about voice?

JR: I feel like there is an OS level "SpeechOver" feature coming

DM: There are probably API level things for Force Touch\

Kim: Any time new input modalities...

Alan: Comes back to HCI
... Typing, touching, mousing, shaking, etc.
... Also, duration of touch
... Galaxy already has duration of touch

<Kim> Jan: check box, you the author should not care whether that's operated by keyboard, mouse

DM: Well I'm going to add this to the bucket

Kathy: Yeah other things to think about

Alan: That's good

Kathy: Anything else?

Kim: No - please work on technique assignments

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found Scribe: Jan
Inferring ScribeNick: Jan
Present: Alan David Detlev Jan jeanne Kathy Kim Marc
Regrets: Henny
Found Date: 10 Sep 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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