14:40:48 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:40:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-mobile-a11y-irc 14:40:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:40:50 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:40:52 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:40:52 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:40:53 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:40:53 Date: 10 September 2015 14:41:01 chair: Kimberly_Patch 14:41:30 agenda+ questions on techniques in progress 14:41:31 agenda+ discussion of David’s Success Criteria http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 14:41:33 Agenda+ Writing assignments http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments 14:41:34 agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, September 17 14:44:23 Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y 14:51:18 Joshue has joined #mobile-a11y 14:52:16 jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:49 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:50 Jan has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:48 Regrets+ Henny 15:03:36 David has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:46 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:05:21 scribe: Jan 15:05:51 Topic: 2. Discussion of David’s Success Criteria 15:06:24 Topic: 1. Questions on techniques in progress 15:06:30 KP: Anything? 15:06:52 Kathy: Have people been working on techs? 15:06:57 Kathy: No? 15:07:10 Kathy: When will we have something we can show? 15:07:35 Kathy: Really important to be working on techs as well as success criteria 15:07:56 Kathy: People are really anxious to get some info 15:08:06 Detlev: Do we have an overview to remind us? 15:08:20 Kathy: Wiki page with current status 15:08:26 Alansmith has joined #mobile-a11y 15:08:39 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments 15:08:42 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments 15:09:10 Kathy: Focussing on "Proposed Mobile Techniques" 15:09:32 Detlev: Have ready for review been reviewed? 15:09:48 Kathy: Yes in previous meetings...there were comments... we need to look up in minutes 15:10:03 Alan: I've been working on 007...I need to add to page? 15:10:07 Kathy: Yes 15:10:22 Kathy: Let me know if you have questions 15:10:28 Topic: 2. Discussion of David’s Success Criteria 15:10:33 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:10:40 Kathy: Continuing to discuss touch accessibility 15:10:51 Kathy: Started talking about challenges 15:11:04 Kathy: David put in some of the discussion 15:11:13 Kathy: Some of this is more usability 15:11:29 Kathy: So....what can we actually require under an SC 15:12:15 Kathy: Our goal is to continue developing this out as an extension... think about this as an extension for mobile 15:12:54 Kathy: Given last week's discussion...what can we require. 15:13:31 DM: I don't think we'll be able to say: All functionality available via touch. 15:14:15 DM: I think we can say: Anything that is touch functional can be accessed with touch with assistive tech turned on 15:15:10 Jan: when you say assistive technology, thinking voiceover, but there are others. Isn't it up to the OS developers not to interfere. One finger left swipe, is it up to them to support that pass through? 15:15:37 DM: Well there is default touch gestures...then there are custom things...may require separate techs 15:16:10 DM: We have to get more granular. 15:16:29 DM: I have some app developer contacts 15:16:52 DM: There are a bunch of default gestures that are intercepted by VO... 15:17:17 DM: Swipe own one finger.... replaced by three finger swipe down 15:17:37 DM: Must make sure replaced gestures are not broken 15:18:16 DM: Custom gestures are more complicated... pass through gestures on some platforms.... but to be honest its above my pay grade. 15:18:32 Detlev: Whats pass through? 15:18:58 DM: You make one gesture that puts AT in mode that passes the next command directly to the app 15:20:44 DM: We need to get everyone together to figure this out 15:21:37 Alan: 007 discusses this...but because the devices are touch specific not sure why we need this 15:21:50 DM: You are saying almost what I'm saying 15:22:24 q+ 15:23:05 DM: What we do need to ensure is that all the touch stuff that works without AT then meets with AT 15:23:39 kathy: We're focussing on VO, etc. but what about all users... voice users. 15:24:13 DM: Just to be clear, I'm saying that IF you use touch, then it has to work with AT on. 15:24:33 DM: I think you're saying all things need to be touch accesible... 15:24:34 Custom touch and gestures must also work with assistive technology. 15:24:52 Kathy: No, I'm just saying you and Alan have different points 15:25:46 DM: If we can get the concept together.... 15:26:04 DM: I know Gregg is concerned about new SCs... 15:26:39 DM: I think we have a hole in WCAG 15:27:53 UAAG use case: User agents and operating systems must provide a mechanism to allow assistive technology touch users to access custom gestures. 15:28:00 Jan: the whole was the size of targets – there are people using head mouse, becomes more of an issue on a small screen 15:28:23 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html 15:29:21 DM: Accessibility support... has to work with at least one combination... 15:29:47 Kathy: JRs comment is valid, WCAG SCs don't mention assistive tech directly 15:29:57 Kathy: UAAG also comes into this 15:30:05 DM: I'm always thinking about devs 15:30:20 DM: GV said basically the same as JR 15:30:59 DM: I proposed a rewrite.... 2.5.4 Touch: For pages and applications that support touch, all functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology activated. 15:31:41 DM: JR is right that WCAG doesn't usually word things this way...BUT we do require it work with a stack..and most natural stack to use is the builtin AT 15:32:32 JR: We seem to have bitten off a big peice...is there something smaller we can nail down 15:32:44 Kathy: What about touch target size? 15:33:57 JR: And I think it could be an SC 15:34:10 DM: I want to touch back on GL wording 15:34:17 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:34:33 +1 for Guideline language 15:34:46 DM: Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch functionality (Understanding) 15:35:09 JR: I'd be OK with that if it included Pointer 15:36:01 q+ 15:36:02 Detlev: I originally said: Guideline 2.5 Touch Accessible: All functionality available via touch. 15:36:09 ack Detlev 15:36:36 Detlev: Think about web app that says to do this function, press F12...may not work on mobile. 15:37:16 Detlev: Couldn't you say that everything should be operable by touch or virtual keyboard. 15:37:51 q+ 15:37:56 JR: That would be broken for all users, not just those with disabilities 15:37:57 q- 15:38:08 q-later 15:38:17 DM: Usability, not accessibility. 15:38:41 Detlev: OK with modified form 15:39:34 DM: Touch and pointer 15:40:32 Kathy: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality. 15:41:05 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29&action=edit§ion=2 15:41:08 Kathy: Proposes "Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document 15:41:18 Alan: Is pointer too definitive 15:41:31 DM: HTML extension "Pointer options" 15:41:33 Alan: OK 15:42:12 Alan: Voice? 15:42:14 DM: Can move pointer with voice 15:43:05 Proposed Resolution: Agreement on "Guideline 2.5: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document 15:43:11 http://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/ 15:43:56 Kim: Yes, you can move pointer with voice, but not very efficient. 15:44:02 mousegrid 15:44:26 DM: Voice will mostly go after the keyboard 15:44:54 DM: We already have keyboard accessibility...its not going anywhere 15:45:09 kathy: Maybe there will be another guideline re: Speech 15:45:25 Kathy: to make sure that's covered 15:45:35 Kim: Other thing... 15:46:02 Kim: We talked about not anticipating VO..what are we missing? 15:46:09 Kathy: Lets talk after 15:46:16 Resolution: Agreement on "Guideline 2.5: Touch and Pointer Accessible: Make it easier for users to operate touch and pointer functionality." for the extension document 15:46:45 Kim: In all of this, what's next? Force touch? 15:47:12 JR: Think we should discuss, this is a great place for it 15:47:25 Alan: Wearables, rotating dials? 15:47:48 Alan: Gear S2...rotate face of watch... 15:48:07 Kim: Styluses as well 15:48:27 Alan: I use one on Galaxy Note 4 15:48:35 good now detlev 15:48:36 Kim: Speech is being used in different ways 15:49:21 DM: re: Force Touch: Some people can't tell light vs. Hard 15:50:41 JR: AssistiveTouch remaps things 15:50:49 Kim: What about voice? 15:51:09 JR: I feel like there is an OS level "SpeechOver" feature coming 15:51:37 DM: There are probably API level things for Force Touch\ 15:51:50 Kim: Any time new input modalities... 15:51:57 Alan: Comes back to HCI 15:52:09 Alan: Typing, touching, mousing, shaking, etc. 15:52:50 Alan: Also, duration of touch 15:53:02 Alan: Galaxy already has duration of touch 15:54:04 Jan: check box, you the author should not care whether that's operated by keyboard, mouse 15:54:52 DM: Well I'm going to add this to the bucket 15:55:03 Kathy: Yeah other things to think about 15:55:08 Alan: That's good 15:55:20 Kathy: Anything else? 15:55:35 Kim: No - please work on technique assignments 15:57:31 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:57:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Jan 15:57:36 RRSAgent, set logs public 15:59:14 present+ Alan, David, Detlev, Jan, jeanne, Kathy, Kim, Marc 15:59:34 rrsagent, make minutes 15:59:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne 15:59:44 RRSAgent, bye 15:59:44 I see no action items