See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 13 August 2015
<scribe> scribe: nigel
nigel: Agenda for today has a few action items and maybe TPAC plus the HTMLCue proposal. AOB?
group: No AOB
action-409?
<trackbot> action-409 -- Nigel Megitt to Discuss liaison with unicode with richard ishida -- due 2015-07-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/409
nigel: We sent the message to Mark Davis of Unicode, and haven't had any response yet.
pal: Something else we can also
do is to file an issue on their tracker, or to supplement the
existing one with the new text.
... I'm not sure which one is better. If we haven't heard back
in a week maybe we can do that.
nigel: Okay that's a good idea, let's revisit that if we've had no response by next week.
close action-409
<trackbot> Closed action-409.
<scribe> ACTION: nigel Add Unicode liaison to weekly meeting agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-414 - Add unicode liaison to weekly meeting agenda [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-08-20].
action-412?
<trackbot> action-412 -- Nigel Megitt to Add draft topics for tpac to wiki page as discussed today and last week -- due 2015-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/412
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2015
nigel: I've done this action -
the wiki page holds the topics we have so far. I've also added
my
... arrival and departure times and hotel.
... If you're attending please could you add your name to the
page?
close action-412
<trackbot> Closed action-412.
nigel: I've done that, so closing it. But this agenda item is an opportunity for more topics.
Courtney: We're close to having a
1st draft of the mapping document and would like to be
able
... to discuss it in person at TPAC - it might take a few hours
to half a day.
nigel: Okay, I and I guess David
Singer will have to work out how to allocate the time over
the
... two days to all the topics we have. I'm not sure what
David's plans are but if he's able to be
... present then we'll need to hook up to work out how to share
the time.
... Any other requests?
tmichel: I guess the Timed Text
Working Group charter is linked to the IMSC 2 deliverable. The
current
... charter doesn't mention IMSC version numbers, so we'll need
to discuss that. I don't know
... if that needs a charter extension - it's an open issue.
nigel: Thanks, yes that's a good
point. I can't remember the discussions we had when we
chose
... to split IMSC up into v1 and v2 but the result was that we
didn't make any charter changes.
tmichel: We can open up discussions with plh when he's back from vacation, in early September
nigel: If there are no other
proposals right now for the agenda, just a reminder to
register
... and book hotels etc.
tmichel: If you register before
Sep 26 with the hotels then you get the discount rate.
... And the advance registration for TPAC closes on Oct 7 -
until then its 85 USD per day
... and after that 170 USD. This is all mentioned on the wiki
page.
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/#registration
action-413?
<trackbot> action-413 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the ednotes.xlsx to remove/mark up completed work -- due 2015-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/413
nigel: I did check that this is up to date - completed work is marked as C, open as O.
close action-413
<trackbot> Closed action-413.
nigel: I also uploaded a
README.txt document for anyone wanting to make editorial
changes.
... I also pushed a couple of examples, for padding and
textAlign on span elements, but
... as far as I can see Glenn hasn't yet regenerated the ED and
pushed it, so you can't see them yet.
... If you want to see them then pull from Mercurial, run ant
to build the HTML and have a look.
... Let me know if you have any difficulties doing that.
action-406?
<trackbot> action-406 -- Andreas Tai to Follow on creating a strawman re: html cue extension specification -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/406
atai: I sent round the proposal
and there's already been some discussion. The idea is to
... draft the proposal and then approach developers etc and see
if there's any feedback.
... I would propose to use this and think about to whom we want
to contribute the summary,
... and inform about our planned activity.
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015Aug/0009.html
atai: The proposal is very
straightforward, which is what we discussed, that we want
an
... implementation of the Text Track Cue interface, with HTML
data instead of VTT.
... And I added some notes to explain why we think that's
useful, to address the feedback
... from previous discussions, that we should highlight why we
need an extension, and
... possibly already have a proposal for how this works
out.
... It would allow more than one format to use the Text Track
Cue interface in browsers. The
... solutions could be to map everything to VttCues, to define
a cue type for every format, or
... to define a generic cue. I describe why a generic HTML cue
would be a good solution,
... coming from the feedback from Opera, Glenn and our
discussions. The cue data is HTML
... and it's easy for browsers to render.
nigel: I'm trying to think ahead
for what the spec might look like. We have the idea of a
cue
... containing HTML. Then there would be some kind of handler
for an onenter event - that would
... put the HTML payload of the cue somewhere - how would we
specify where?
... And would it append or replace?
atai: I think that's the
proposal, and your questions are the task to solve.
... I want to ask everyone else if they think that's what we
discussed and how realistic it is to
... implement it in browsers.
pal: I don't have an opinion on
that other than that to date there's no generic way in
HTML5
... to assign HTML to time events, which is essentially the
proposal. This has been discussed
... in the past and I think Silvia stated factually the
feedback in the past.
nigel: My reading of Silvia's
emails is that the world has moved on and it may be worth
raising
... this proposal once again even if it was previously
considered and not taken any further.
atai: I think it's worth taking this and starting some quiet discussions.
pal: If I'm not mistaken Glenn already proposed a patch on webkit.
atai: I think it was a TTML implementation proposal.
pal: You might be right - in that case it would be worth highlighting that this is something different.
atai: The problem with that was that the browser devs didn't like XML.
nigel: Specifically it was the Google blink community.
atai: I think the proposal from Giuseppe Pascale was to raise this and see what feedback we get.
pal: Maybe an initial channel to try would be the Web & TV IG.
atai: That may be one, yes. We
can send something officially across groups. Giuseppe
also
... proposed contacting the WHATWG. Those would be official
channels. We can also make
... more informal contact.
... Giuseppe mentioned WHATWG because a lot of developers are
on the reflector for that group.
tmichel: I can investigate the options for contacting WHATWG.
atai: We also need to take be
aware that we will need a mapping document from TTML to
... HTML. We would also need to be willing to draft such a
mapping in case an HTMLCue were
... accepted by the other groups.
nigel: There was also a question
on the reflector about implementation in browsers and if
... anyone could do that. Can anyone respond to that question
here?
atai: No, but I think it's an
interesting observation that even VTTCue is implemented
by
... mapping VTT into HTML. I think there are open source or
other players that take TTML and
... populate the cue with very HTML-like data. That could be
worth investigating if we can
... point to implementations that use that strategy.
nigel: I don't think it's a
secret that EBU has a dash.js fork on github that takes exactly
this
... approach, misusing VTTCue because that's the only thing
that's supported by browsers
... and not showing the track, but using the timing of the cues
to fire onenter and onexit
... events whose handlers simply attach or remove HTML from a
target element.
... In terms of taking this forward, I can as chair take on the
liaison role for sending the
... draft text to Web & TV IG and to the HTML WG and
possibly WHATWG. The first question
... is if the draft text is okay to send now?
pal: Have you considered thinking
what the next steps would be, and for example pointing
... to those areas in the code that convert VTT into HTML?
atai: The idea from Opera would
be first to test the idea and then go into detail later.
... What we discussed in the last face to face meeting is if we
want to initiate a joint meeting
... with HTML WG at TPAC.
nigel: For me I think we could
add a little bit more detail such as pointing to existing
code
... or addressing some of the questions like what action
happens on the entry and exit events
... exactly, and how the target element is identified.
... I'm interested to know what Courtney's feeling on this
would be?
Courtney: I'll take a look at this and talk to the webkit guys about it.
mike: I haven't studied this either. I'm not familiar with this area though.
nigel: So turning this into
actions, we have the one Courtney just mentioned; I'm happy to
try
... to edit the draft to include some of the areas that we know
need addressing but haven't
... wanted to spend time on until we know the idea might be
adopted, and Thierry will
... investigate the possibility of contacting WHATWG.
... I'd like to revisit this next week following these actions
and make some concrete plans
... to contact people e.g. Web & TV IG etc.
... On a possibly related subject is it worth a quick mention
of the TTML WebVTT mapping
... work?
Courtney: Sure. Andreas, Loretta
and I have made good progress on it and hopefully can
share
... the draft with the group in the next few weeks. We've
defined sections on layout, style and timing,
... and a TTML profile that matches the WebVTT feature set.
<mike> had to drop for another call
nigel: We're out of time so I'll
adjourn the meeting - if we can come back with those
HTMLCue
... actions next week that would be great. Thanks very much
everyone. [adjourns meeting]
close action-406
<trackbot> Closed action-406.