IRC log of tt on 2015-08-13

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-tt-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
13:55:27 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be TTML
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I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
13:55:30 [trackbot]
Date: 13 August 2015
13:55:38 [nigel]
chair: nigel
13:55:41 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
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Regrets: Frans
13:55:52 [nigel]
Present: nigel
14:02:55 [tmichel]
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14:03:22 [mike]
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14:03:56 [nigel]
Present+ Mike, Pierre, Andreas, Thierry
14:05:24 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
14:05:41 [nigel]
nigel: Agenda for today has a few action items and maybe TPAC plus the HTMLCue proposal. AOB?
14:05:47 [nigel]
group: No AOB
14:06:17 [nigel]
Present+ Courtney
14:07:02 [nigel]
Topic: Action Items
14:07:15 [nigel]
action-409?
14:07:15 [trackbot]
action-409 -- Nigel Megitt to Discuss liaison with unicode with richard ishida -- due 2015-07-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:07:15 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/409
14:07:50 [nigel]
nigel: We sent the message to Mark Davies of Unicode, and haven't had any response yet.
14:07:55 [courtney]
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14:08:24 [nigel]
pal: Something else we can also do is to file an issue on their tracker, or to supplement the existing one with the new text.
14:08:38 [nigel]
... I'm not sure which one is better. If we haven't heard back in a week maybe we can do that.
14:09:01 [nigel]
nigel: Okay that's a good idea, let's revisit that if we've had no response by next week.
14:09:18 [nigel]
close action-409
14:09:18 [trackbot]
Closed action-409.
14:10:06 [nigel]
Action: nigel Add Unicode liaison to weekly meeting agenda
14:10:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-414 - Add unicode liaison to weekly meeting agenda [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-08-20].
14:12:13 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2015
14:12:18 [nigel]
action-412?
14:12:18 [trackbot]
action-412 -- Nigel Megitt to Add draft topics for tpac to wiki page as discussed today and last week -- due 2015-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:12:18 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/412
14:12:32 [nigel]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2015
14:13:08 [nigel]
nigel: I've done this action - the wiki page holds the topics we have so far. I've also added my
14:13:16 [nigel]
... arrival and departure times and hotel.
14:13:26 [nigel]
... If you're attending please could you add your name to the page?
14:13:43 [nigel]
close action-412
14:13:43 [trackbot]
Closed action-412.
14:14:09 [nigel]
nigel: I've done that, so closing it. But this is an opportunity for more topics.
14:14:21 [nigel]
Courtney: We're close to having a 1st draft of the mapping document and would like to be able
14:14:34 [nigel]
... to discuss it in person at TPAC - it might take a few hours to half a day.
14:16:05 [nigel]
nigel: Okay, I and I guess David Singer will have to work out how to allocate the time over the
14:16:17 [nigel]
... two days to all the topics we have. I'm not sure what David's plans are but if he's able to be
14:16:34 [nigel]
... present then we'll need to hook up to work out how to share the time.
14:17:33 [nigel]
nigel: Any other requests?
14:17:47 [nigel]
tmichel: I guess the Timed Text working charter is linked to the IMSC 2 deliverable. The current
14:18:01 [nigel]
... charter doesn't mention IMSC version numbers, so we'll need to discuss that. I don't know
14:18:10 [nigel]
... if that needs a charter extension - it's an open issue.
14:18:44 [nigel]
nigel: Thanks, yes that's a good point. I can't remember the discussions we had when we chose
14:19:01 [nigel]
... to split IMSC up into v1 and v2 but the result was that we didn't make any charter changes.
14:19:20 [nigel]
tmichel: We can open up discussions with plh when he's back from vacation, in early September
14:20:54 [nigel]
nigel: If there are no other proposals right now for the agenda, just a reminder to register
14:20:59 [nigel]
... and book hotels etc.
14:21:32 [nigel]
tmichel: If you register before Sep 26 with the hotels then you get the discount rate.
14:21:59 [nigel]
tmichel: And the advance registration for TPAC closes on Oct 7 - until then its 85USD per day
14:22:08 [nigel]
... and after that 170USD. This is all mentioned on the wiki page.
14:22:12 [nigel]
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/#registration
14:23:14 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2 Editorial Actions
14:23:19 [nigel]
action-413?
14:23:19 [trackbot]
action-413 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the ednotes.xlsx to remove/mark up completed work -- due 2015-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:23:19 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/413
14:23:48 [nigel]
nigel: I did check that this is up to date - completed work is marked as C, open as O.
14:24:01 [nigel]
close action-413
14:24:01 [trackbot]
Closed action-413.
14:24:17 [nigel]
nigel: I also uploaded a README.txt document for anyone wanting to make editorial changes.
14:25:28 [nigel]
nigel: I also pushed a couple of examples, for padding and textAlign on span elements, but
14:25:40 [nigel]
... as far as I can see Glenn hasn't yet regenerated the ED and pushed it, so you can't see them yet.
14:26:24 [nigel]
nigel: If you want to see them then pull from Mercurial, run ant to build the HTML and have a look.
14:26:33 [nigel]
... Let me know if you have any difficulties doing that.
14:27:23 [nigel]
Topic: HTMLCue Proposal
14:27:30 [nigel]
action-406?
14:27:30 [trackbot]
action-406 -- Andreas Tai to Follow on creating a strawman re: html cue extension specification -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
14:27:30 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/406
14:27:58 [nigel]
atai: I sent round the proposal and there's already been some discussion. The idea is to
14:28:14 [nigel]
... draft the proposal and then approach developers etc and see if there's any feedback.
14:28:28 [nigel]
... I would propose to use this and think about to whom we want to contribute the summary,
14:28:34 [nigel]
... and inform about our planned activity.
14:28:46 [nigel]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015Aug/0009.html
14:29:33 [nigel]
atai: The proposal is very straightforward, which is what we discussed, that we want an
14:29:47 [nigel]
... implementation of the Text Track Cue interface, with HTML data instead of VTT.
14:29:57 [nigel]
... And I added some notes to explain why we think that's useful, to address the feedback
14:30:13 [nigel]
... from previous discussions, that we should highlight why we need an extension, and
14:30:22 [nigel]
... possibly already have a proposal for how this works out.
14:30:54 [nigel]
... It would allow more than one format to use the Text Track Cue interface in browsers. The
14:31:18 [nigel]
... solution would be to map everything to VttCues, to define a cue type for every format, or
14:31:32 [nigel]
... to define a generic cue. I describe why a generic HTML cue would be a good solution,
14:31:47 [nigel]
... coming from the feedback from Opera, Glenn and our discussions. The cue data is HTML
14:31:54 [nigel]
... and it's easy for browsers to render.
14:33:04 [nigel]
nigel: I'm trying to think ahead for what the spec might look like. We have the idea of a cue
14:33:21 [nigel]
... containing HTML. Then there would be some kind of handler for an onenter event - that would
14:33:37 [nigel]
... put the HTML payload of the cue somewhere - how would we specify where?
14:33:44 [nigel]
... And would it append or replace?
14:33:58 [nigel]
atai: I think that's the proposal, and your questions are the task to solve.
14:34:27 [nigel]
... I want to ask everyone else if they think that's what we discussed and how realistic it is to
14:34:33 [nigel]
... implement it in browsers.
14:34:55 [nigel]
pal: I don't have an opinion on that other than that to date there's no generic way in HTML5
14:35:09 [nigel]
... to assign HTML to time events, which is essentially the proposal. This has been discussed
14:35:29 [nigel]
... in the past and I think Silvia stated factually the feedback in the past.
14:35:58 [nigel]
nigel: My reading of Silvia's emails is that the world has moved on and it may be worth raising
14:36:12 [nigel]
... this proposal once again even if it was previously considered and not taken any further.
14:36:47 [nigel]
atai: I think it's worth taking this and starting some quiet discussions.
14:36:59 [nigel]
pal: If I'm not mistaken Glenn already proposed a patch on webkit.
14:37:08 [nigel]
atai: I think it was a TTML implementation proposal.
14:37:23 [nigel]
pal: You might be right - in that case it would be worth highlighting that this is something different.
14:38:01 [nigel]
atai: The problem with that the browser devs didn't like XML.
14:38:14 [nigel]
nigel: Specifically it was the Google blink community.
14:38:33 [nigel]
atai: I think the proposal from Giuseppe Pascale was to raise this and see what feedback we get.
14:38:44 [nigel]
pal: Maybe an initial channel to try would be the Web & TV IG.
14:39:01 [nigel]
atai: That may be one, yes. We can send something officially across groups. Giuseppe also
14:39:17 [nigel]
... proposed contacting the WHATWG. Those would be official channels. We can also make
14:39:35 [nigel]
... more informal contact.
14:40:15 [nigel]
atai: Giuseppe mentioned WHATWG because a lot of developers are on the reflector for that group.
14:40:56 [nigel]
tmichel: I can investigate the options for contacting WHATWG.
14:41:15 [nigel]
atai: We also need to take be aware that we will need a mapping document from TTML to
14:41:32 [nigel]
... HTML. We would also need to be willing to draft such a mapping in case an HTMLCue were
14:41:37 [nigel]
... accepted by the other groups.
14:42:09 [nigel]
nigel: There was also a question on the reflector about implementation in browsers and if
14:42:21 [nigel]
... anyone could do that. Can anyone respond to that question here?
14:42:37 [nigel]
atai: No, but I think it's an interesting observation that even VTTCue is implemented by
14:42:52 [nigel]
... mapping VTT into HTML. I think there are open source or other players that take TTML and
14:43:09 [nigel]
... populate the cue with very HTML-like data. That could be worth investigating if we can
14:43:17 [nigel]
... point to implementations that use that strategy.
14:44:47 [nigel]
nigel: I don't think it's a secret that EBU has a dash.js fork on github that takes exactly this
14:45:12 [nigel]
... approach, misusing VTTCue because that's the only thing that's supported by browsers
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14:45:31 [nigel]
... and not showing the track, but using the timing of the cues to fire onenter and onexit
14:45:46 [nigel]
... events whose handlers simply attach or remove HTML from a target element.
14:47:03 [nigel]
nigel: In terms of taking this forward, I can as chair take on the liaison role for sending the
14:47:37 [nigel]
... draft text to Web & TV IG and to the HTML WG and possibly WHATWG. The first question
14:47:54 [nigel]
... is if the draft text is okay to send now?
14:48:14 [nigel]
pal: Have you considered thinking what the next steps would be, and for example pointing
14:49:05 [nigel]
... to those areas in the code that convert VTT into HTML?
14:49:26 [nigel]
atai: The idea from Opera would be first to test the idea and then go into detail later.
14:49:38 [nigel]
... What we discussed in the last face to face meeting is if we want to initiate a joint meeting
14:51:54 [nigel]
... with HTML WG at TPAC.
14:52:14 [nigel]
nigel: For me I think we could add a little bit more detail such as pointing to existing code
14:52:32 [nigel]
... or addressing some of the questions like what action happens on the entry and exit events
14:52:41 [nigel]
... exactly, and how the target element is identified.
14:54:41 [nigel]
nigel: I'm interested to know what Courtney's feeling on this would be?
14:54:50 [nigel]
Courtney: I'll take a look at this and talk to the webkit guys about it.
14:55:17 [nigel]
mike: I haven't studied this either. I'm not familiar with this area though.
14:56:43 [nigel]
nigel: So turning this into actions, we have the one Courtney just mentioned; I'm happy to try
14:56:56 [nigel]
... to edit the draft to include some of the areas that we know need addressing but haven't
14:57:12 [nigel]
... wanted to spend time on until we know the idea might be adopted, and Thierry will
14:57:21 [nigel]
... investigate the possibility of contacting WHATWG.
14:57:53 [nigel]
nigel: I'd like to revisit this next week following these actions and make some concrete plans
14:58:01 [nigel]
... to contact people e.g. Web & TV IG etc.
14:59:06 [nigel]
nigel: On a possibly related subject is it worth a quick mention of the TTML WebVTT mapping
14:59:08 [nigel]
... work?
14:59:22 [nigel]
Courtney: Sure. Andreas, Loretta and I have made good progress on it and hopefully can share
14:59:46 [nigel]
... the draft with the group in the next few weeks. We've defined sections on layout, style and timing,
15:00:11 [nigel]
... and a TTML profile that matches the WebVTT feature set.
15:00:33 [mike]
had to drop for another call
15:01:38 [nigel]
nigel: We're out of time so I'll adjourn the meeting - if we can come back with those HTMLCue
15:01:51 [nigel]
... actions next week that would be great. Thanks very much everyone. [adjourns meeting]
15:01:57 [nigel]
rrsagent, make logs public
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-tt-minutes.html nigel
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s/Davies/Davis
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s/But this/But this agenda item
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s/working charter/Working Group charter
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s/USD/ USD/g
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close action-406
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Closed action-406.
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s/solution would be/solutions could be
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s/with that the/with that was that the
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-tt-minutes.html nigel
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ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
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rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-tt-minutes.html nigel
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