See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 09 July 2015
<MichaelC> meeting: ARIA TF
<scribe> scribe: fesch
mc: heartbeats scheduled for next
Tuesday
... pubs won't have commits from last week or today
<MichaelC> AC Review of WAI Charters
mc: please work with your
advisory committee to get their vote in
... sent pings to everyone
... any other announcements?
<clown> issue-722?
<trackbot> issue-722 -- Inheritance cleanup -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/722
<clown> acttion-1676
<clown> action-1676
<trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1676
<MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/94a5a93939
mc: reviewing action-1676
... related to issue-722
... any concerns about edits for 1676?
<MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/94a5a9393988b7c15162edb441739669e8dba060/aria/aria.html
stefan: has the changes been tested?
<MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0178.html
mc: no
<MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/taxonomy/aria/aria.html
mc: in-spite of the points Joanie makes, I recall that we had a reason for that structure... looking for class diagram
js: is it possible people make list boxes from... is that why we had the hierarchy?
mc: a list box has a list so it inherits from list and select... now we are getting questions on it...
<clown> rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-select-listbox
bg: what do multiselectable items get mapped as?
<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listbox
mc: ATK exposes a list box as a
menu when the listbox is associated with a combobox
... we don't understand why Joanie wants to make this change,
we shouldn't accept it for now
stefan: what happens when you remove directory?
mc: list and directory don't have any properties.... however we did it for conceptual grouping not inheritance, so we originally said listbox is a list
bg: a listbox looks like a standard select item, with a list inside of it
mc: I think we should not accept
Joanie's edits at this time, needs discussion
... Joanie's 3 rd item
stefan: would be helpful to see before and after the change
bg: would it be helpful to this delay this topic?
mc: scrollbar - sometimes not an
input field, but it could be considered a input
... need to talk through the edits with Joanie
stefen: maybe someone observed a scrollbar could be used for input
<clown> joanie's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0178.html
mc: we will leave the item open for now, look at messages on the list, will put back on agenda for next week (hopefully Joanie will attend for discussion)
<MichaelC> action-1678?
<trackbot> action-1678 -- Joanmarie Diggs to aria-readonly should support most form field role types -- due 2015-07-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1678
bg: I have a problem with that, it sounds weird
stefan: not so weird we have read-only check boxes...
mc: this comes from Joanie from an HTML face - to - face
<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13390
mc: we were talking about readonly recently
bg: I can see that readonly for radio buttons and checkboxes, but
<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0046.html
bg: some things can't be selected and readonly
js: I replied on list
... I had a question on slider and spinbuttons... if you can't
change it?
stefen: you may not have the right to do so...
<jamesn> +1 to Stefan
stefen: so you may disable a
particular control for a particular user
... want to support a readonly state for an input item.
js: you can have a disabled
state, but usually you can't focus on a disabled control
... so an active readonly control - what would it do? you could
move it but snap back?
mc: readonly text field might exist until you fill in another text field
stefen: it makes sense to distinguish between roles and readonly, and we need to define those now
bg: how do you apply it to a multi select widget?
mc: I think in most cases, it would be readonly some of the time not all of the time
bg: for radio buttons you can't do it without breaking the button. getting focus selects
mc: isn't readonly the same as disabled?
several: NO
stefan: you could have readonly on a container, and it would make everything in the container readonly
js: I thought the distinction is you can't navigate to a disabled control
mc: disabled - it is perceivable, but may not be in the tab order
bg: readonly should make it disabled but in the tab order....
stefen: it should not be in the tab order... otherwise violates HTML...
<clown> is this not possible in html? <input type="range" disabled tabindex="0">
mc: Bryan's example of a menu... where you want to move through it...
bg: idea of having a readonly attribute does not make sense
jn: the needs of a screen reader
user is different from a keyboard user...
... tabs don't go to disabled input items, but screen readers
do
bg: if you propose doing something different for screen reader users vs keyboard users, you will get pushback
jn: right, doing so can cause all sorts of problems... talking fundimentally
mc: from the ARIA spec
perspective - we may need to be permissive... but we have a lot
of confusion about disabled vs readonly... the rest of the
world will be as lost...
... do we need a white paper on disabled vs readonly?
stefan: can we give you examples?
mc: I think this will be a problem going forward and with the HTML WG...
<MichaelC> ACTION: clown to start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/09-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1679 - Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-07-16].
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1679 with product-17
<trackbot> action-1679 (Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled) associated with product-17.
mc: can we accept Joanie's edits on readonly?
js: trying to figure out whether there is any danger in being permissive and then reversing later?
RESOLUTION: accept edits from action-1687
<clown> issue-669?
<trackbot> issue-669 -- Need ability to differentiate and reference error messages on invalid form elements -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/669
<clown> action-1674?
<trackbot> action-1674 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write proposal to the list for error message referencs to live region -- due 2015-07-09 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1674
<clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0022.html
stefan: can show a related error
message, like a tooltip role...
... want to have an error msg string... a separate error
message
js: thats part of it, wants an id that points to a live region
stefan: there are multiple ways
to display errors, is this flex enough to support multiple ways
to expose errors
... 1) message post popping up
... describes multiple ways errors may be presented ...
... how to implement directly - to know better what goes on
js: those are APG questions
<MichaelC> close action-1678
<trackbot> Closed action-1678.
stefan: where does the error property be set? on the element input field?
js: yes
stefan: should this be implemented this way? or supported this way?
<clown> <input type="text" aria-invalid="true" aria-errormessage="msgid"> … <span id="msgid" aria-live="assertive"> message text here </span>
stefan: what should happen?
js: describes markup example
stefan: this is already happening, if you use JavaScript... what is the purpose of aria-errormessage? why is this needed?
js: the intended use is to describe the relationship between the input and the error message
<clown> " Typically, this would require the AT user to follow the reference to the error message if needed."
js: that allows AT to follow the error message back to the field,
bg: if you have a description and error message, they may not be the same....
js: errormessage and describedby are similar
mc: so Rich's proposal is - if
you have aria-invalid, then you can get why it is invalid
... I assume the errormessage would only be present when
aria-invalid is true...
... do we favor the general approach?
... does this solve it more elegantly than other
approaches?
js: the errormessage might be in
the DOM with display none...
... I assume if you switch display none to block, that is the
same as a live region
mc: how will this be mapped in
the current accessibility API?
... If we don't have a mapping, then we can put it off until
ARIA 2, but if it is a important use case, then we can try to
put it in 1.1
... any objections to put it off to 2.0?
js: I think James N. wanted to expand aria-invalid...
mc: aria-invalid is not true
false, rather a set of tokens...
... does James consider this critical for the 1.1 timeframe or
not and which is more important expanding the tokens or
this?
stefan: we also have warning
mc: invalid id is a major feature, but expanding tokens is less
stefan: HTML has no concept of warnings, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it here
mc: we are here to fill gaps... so that is not a problem... does anyone know if it could have mappings? Having a mapping would make it more comfortable for ARIA 1.1.
stefan: who is doing the mappings?
mc: Joseph is leading the mapping....
<clown> issue-651?
<trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
mc: big worry - if we take it on,
will it be supported in the 1.1 timeframe?
... if there is no mappings, then there is no reason to have
this (in 1.1)
... need to stick in spec as a straw proposal...
<MichaelC> ACTION: clown to draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in ARIA 1.1 though [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/07/09-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1680 - Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-07-16].
<MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1680 with issue-651
<trackbot> action-1680 (Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though) associated with issue-651.
<MichaelC> close issue-669
<trackbot> Closed issue-669.
mc: next agenda item may be long, will save for next week
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/stephan/stefan/ Succeeded: s/ATK exposes a list box as a menu/ATK exposes a list box as a menu when the listbox is associated with a combobox/ Succeeded: s/stephan/stefan/g Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Found Scribe: fesch Inferring ScribeNick: fesch Present: Janina Fred MichaelC Stefan Joseph JF Bryan_Garaventa JamesN Regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger Joanie_Diggs Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0045.html Found Date: 09 Jul 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/09-aria-minutes.html People with action items: clown[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]