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16:22:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/09-aria-irc
16:22:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:22:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:23:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:23:01 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:23:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:23:02 <trackbot> Date: 09 July 2015
16:23:13 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0045.html
16:23:16 <MichaelC> chair: Michael_Cooper
16:23:23 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:23:34 <MichaelC> meeting: ARIA TF
16:23:37 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
16:23:54 <MichaelC> agenda+ Announcements
16:24:03 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 722 and Actions 1676, 1677, 1675 Inheritance Cleanup
16:24:12 <MichaelC> agenda+ Action 1678 aria-readonly should support most form field role types
16:24:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 669 and Action 1674 Need ability to differentiate errors and reference error messages
16:24:37 <MichaelC> agenda+ Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut
16:24:45 <MichaelC> agenda+ Review Open Action Items and Issues
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16:31:50 <janina> present+ Janina
16:32:05 <fesch> present+ Fred
16:33:30 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:34:34 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:34:41 <MichaelC> regrets+ Joanie_Diggs
16:34:49 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC, Stefan
16:35:33 <clown> present+ Joseph
16:35:47 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:35:52 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:35:52 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Announcements" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:36:32 <fesch> mc: heartbeats scheduled for next Tuesday
16:37:01 <fesch> mc: pubs won't have commits from last week or today
16:37:03 <JF> JF has joined #aria
16:37:11 <MichaelC> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2015JulSep/0002.html AC Review of WAI Charters
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16:37:53 <fesch> mc: please work with your advisory committee to get their vote in
16:38:44 <fesch> mc: sent pings to everyone
16:38:59 <fesch> mc: any other announcements?
16:39:04 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:39:04 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue 722 and Actions 1676, 1677, 1675 Inheritance Cleanup" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:39:11 <clown> issue-722?
16:39:11 <trackbot> issue-722 -- Inheritance cleanup -- raised
16:39:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/722
16:39:21 <clown> acttion-1676
16:39:25 <clown> action-1676
16:39:25 <trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:39:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1676
16:40:19 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/94a5a93939
16:41:20 <fesch> mc: reviewing action-1676
16:42:14 <JF> Present+ JF
16:42:31 <fesch> mc: related to issue-722
16:42:50 <fesch> mc: any concerns about edits for 1676?
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16:43:49 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:46:34 <MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/94a5a9393988b7c15162edb441739669e8dba060/aria/aria.html
16:48:01 <fesch> stephan: has the changes been tested?
16:48:07 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0178.html
16:48:09 <fesch> mc: no
16:48:21 <clown> s/stephan/stefan
16:48:45 <MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/taxonomy/aria/aria.html
16:50:27 <fesch> mc: in-spite of the points Joanie makes, I recall that we had a reason for that structure... looking for class diagram
16:51:29 <fesch> js: is it possible people make list boxes  from... is that why we had the hierarchy?
16:52:27 <fesch> mc: a list box has a list so it inherits from list and select... now we are getting questions on it...
16:53:27 <clown> rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-select-listbox
16:53:37 <fesch> bg: what do multiselectable items get mapped as?
16:54:04 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listbox
16:55:14 <fesch> mc: ATK exposes a list box as a menu
16:55:56 <fesch> mc: we don't understand why Joanie wants to make this change, we shouldn't accept it for now
16:56:28 <clown> s/ATK exposes a list box as a menu/ATK exposes a list box as a menu when the listbox is associated with a combobox/
16:56:29 <fesch> stephan: what happens when you remove directory?
16:57:40 <fesch> mc: list and directory don't have any properties.... however we did it for conceptual grouping not inheritance, so we originally said  listbox is a list
16:58:16 <fesch> bg: a listbox looks like a standard select item, with a list inside of it
16:58:48 <fesch> mc: I think we should not accept Joanie's edits at this time, needs discussion
16:58:59 <clown> s/stephan/stefan/g
16:59:09 <fesch> mc: Joanie's 3 rd item
16:59:43 <fesch> stefan: would be helpful to see before and after the change
17:00:36 <fesch> bg: would it be helpful to this delay this topic?
17:01:18 <fesch> mc: scrollbar - sometimes not an input field, but it could be considered a input
17:01:39 <fesch> mc: need to talk through the edits with Joanie
17:02:15 <fesch> stefen: maybe someone observed a scrollbar could be used for input
17:03:16 <clown> joanie's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0178.html
17:03:21 <fesch> mc: we will leave the item open for now,  look at messages on the list, will put back on agenda for next week (hopefully Joanie will attend for discussion)
17:03:46 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:03:46 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action 1678 aria-readonly should support most form field role types" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:04:05 <MichaelC> action-1678?
17:04:05 <trackbot> action-1678 -- Joanmarie Diggs to aria-readonly should support most form field role types -- due 2015-07-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:04:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1678
17:04:18 <fesch> bg: I have a problem with that, it sounds weird
17:04:38 <fesch> stefan: not so weird we have read-only check boxes...
17:05:01 <fesch> mc: this comes from Joanie from an HTML face - to - face
17:05:04 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13390
17:05:27 <fesch> mc: we were talking about readonly recently
17:05:56 <fesch> bg: I can see that readonly for radio buttons and checkboxes, but
17:06:18 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0046.html
17:06:19 <fesch> bg: some things can't be selected and readonly
17:06:29 <fesch> js: I replied on list
17:06:59 <fesch> js: I had a question on slider and spinbuttons... if you can't change it?
17:07:14 <fesch> stefen: you may not have the right to do so...
17:07:28 <jamesn> +1 to Stefan
17:07:38 <fesch> stefen: so you may disable a particular control for a particular user
17:08:41 <fesch> stefen: want to support a readonly state for an input item.
17:09:05 <fesch> js: you can have a disabled state, but usually you can't focus on a disabled control
17:09:29 <fesch> js: so an active readonly control - what would it do? you could move it but snap back?
17:10:02 <fesch> mc: readonly text field might exist until you fill in another text field
17:10:43 <fesch> stefen: it makes sense to distinguish between roles and readonly, and we need to define those now
17:11:05 <fesch> bg: how do you apply it to a multi select widget?
17:11:26 <fesch> mc: I think in most cases, it would be readonly some of the time not all of the time
17:11:49 <fesch> bg: for radio buttons you can't do it without breaking the button. getting focus selects
17:12:07 <fesch> mc: isn't readonly the same as disabled?
17:12:15 <fesch> several: NO
17:13:16 <fesch> stefan: you could have readonly on a container, and it would make everything in the container readonly
17:13:56 <fesch> js: I thought the distinction is you can't navigate to a disabled control
17:14:34 <fesch> mc: disabled - it is perceivable, but may not be in the tab order
17:15:11 <fesch> bg: readonly should make it disabled but in the tab order....
17:15:39 <fesch> stefen: it should not be in the tab order... otherwise violates HTML...
17:16:02 <clown> is this not possible in html?  <input type="range" disabled tabindex="0">
17:16:07 <fesch> mc: Bryan's example of a menu... where you want to move through it...
17:16:26 <fesch> bg: idea of having a readonly attribute does not make sense
17:16:51 <fesch> jn: the needs of a screen reader user is different from a keyboard user...
17:17:24 <fesch> jn: tabs don't go to disabled input items, but screen readers do
17:17:55 <fesch> bg: if you propose doing something different for screen reader users vs keyboard users, you will get pushback
17:18:20 <fesch> jn: right, doing so can cause all sorts of problems... talking fundimentally
17:19:12 <fesch> mc: from the ARIA spec perspective - we may need to be permissive... but we have a lot of confusion about disabled vs readonly... the  rest of the world will be as lost...
17:19:34 <fesch> mc: do we need a white paper on disabled vs readonly?
17:20:05 <fesch> stefan: can we give you examples?
17:21:01 <fesch> mc: I think this will be a problem going forward and with the HTML WG...
17:21:51 <MichaelC> action: clown to start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled
17:21:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1679 - Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-07-16].
17:22:52 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1679 with product-17
17:22:52 <trackbot> action-1679 (Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled) associated with product-17.
17:23:29 <fesch> mc: can we accept Joanie's edits on readonly?
17:23:59 <fesch> js: trying to figure out whether there is any danger in being permissive and then reversing later?
17:24:43 <fesch> RESOLUTION: accept edits from action-1687
17:25:07 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:25:07 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issue 669 and Action 1674 Need ability to differentiate errors and reference error messages" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:25:19 <clown> issue-669?
17:25:19 <trackbot> issue-669 -- Need ability to differentiate and reference error messages on invalid form elements -- raised
17:25:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/669
17:25:25 <clown> action-1674?
17:25:25 <trackbot> action-1674 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write proposal to the list for error message referencs to live region -- due 2015-07-09 -- OPEN
17:25:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1674
17:27:23 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0022.html
17:27:39 <fesch> stefan: can show a related error message, like a tooltip role...
17:28:21 <fesch> stefan: want to have an error msg string... a separate error message
17:28:41 <fesch> js: thats part of it, wants an id that points to a live region
17:29:27 <fesch> stefan: there are multiple ways to display errors,  is this flex enough to support multiple ways to expose errors
17:29:50 <fesch> stefan: 1) message post popping up
17:30:38 <fesch> stefan: describes multiple ways errors may be presented ...
17:31:14 <fesch> stefan: how to implement directly - to know better what goes on
17:31:24 <fesch> js: those are APG questions
17:31:29 <MichaelC> close action-1678
17:31:29 <trackbot> Closed action-1678.
17:32:13 <fesch> stefan: where does the error property be set? on the element input field?
17:32:18 <fesch> js: yes
17:33:12 <fesch> stefan: should this be implemented this way? or supported this way?
17:33:16 <clown> <input type="text" aria-invalid="true"  aria-errormessage="msgid"> … <span id="msgid" aria-live="assertive"> message text here </span>
17:33:36 <fesch> stefan: what should happen?
17:34:19 <fesch> js: describes markup example
17:35:12 <fesch> stefan: this is already happening, if you use JavaScript... what is the purpose of aria-errormessage? why is this needed?
17:35:59 <fesch> js: the intended use is to describe the relationship between the input and the error message
17:36:26 <clown> " Typically, this would require the AT user to follow the reference to the error message if needed."
17:36:27 <fesch> js: that allows AT to follow the error message back to the field,
17:36:46 <fesch> bg: if you have a description and error message, they may not be the same....
17:37:10 <fesch> js: errormessage and describedby are similar
17:37:38 <fesch> mc: so Rich's proposal is - if you have aria-invalid, then you can get why it is invalid
17:38:24 <fesch> mc: I assume the errormessage would only be present when aria-invalid is true...
17:38:48 <fesch> mc: do we favor the general approach?
17:39:08 <fesch> mc: does this solve it more elegantly than other approaches?
17:39:41 <fesch> js: the errormessage might be in the DOM with display none...
17:40:21 <fesch> js: I assume if you switch display none to block, that is the same as a live region
17:40:44 <fesch> mc: how will this be mapped in the current accessibility API?
17:41:36 <fesch> mc: If we don't have a mapping, then we can put it off until ARIA 2,  but if it is a important use case, then we can try to put it in 1.1
17:42:00 <fesch> mc: any objections to put it off to 2.0?
17:42:20 <fesch> js: I think James N. wanted to expand aria-invalid...
17:42:48 <fesch> mc: aria-invalid is not true false, rather a set of tokens...
17:43:50 <fesch> mc: does James consider this critical for the 1.1 timeframe or not and which is more important expanding the tokens or this?
17:44:04 <fesch> stefan: we also have warning
17:44:49 <fesch> mc: invalid id is a major feature, but expanding tokens is less
17:45:39 <fesch> stefan: HTML has no concept of warnings, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it here
17:46:26 <fesch> mc: we are here to fill gaps... so that is not a problem... does anyone know if it could have mappings? Having a mapping would make it more comfortable for ARIA 1.1.
17:46:58 <fesch> stefan: who is doing the mappings?
17:47:11 <fesch> mc: Joseph is leading the mapping....
17:47:27 <clown> issue-651?
17:47:27 <trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised
17:47:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
17:49:23 <fesch> mc: big worry - if we take it on, will it be supported in the 1.1 timeframe?
17:49:52 <fesch> mc: if there is no mappings, then there is no reason to have this (in 1.1)
17:50:21 <fesch> mc: need to stick in spec as a straw proposal...
17:52:22 <MichaelC> action: clown to draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in ARIA 1.1 though
17:52:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1680 - Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-07-16].
17:52:37 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1680 with issue-651
17:52:37 <trackbot> action-1680 (Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though) associated with issue-651.
17:53:50 <MichaelC> close issue-669
17:53:51 <trackbot> Closed issue-669.
17:55:28 <fesch> mc: next agenda item may be long, will save for next week
17:56:28 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/09-aria-minutes.html fesch
17:57:15 <MichaelC> present+ JamesN
17:57:22 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/09-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
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